The big Coronavirus thread

dannbodge

My boss just signed off on me buying a 3D printer to have at home (I work in product development/R&D) and also signed off on buying extra material so I can help 3D print the face visors!

kingstongraham

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

It's not so much the money as the logistics.

If industry can knock up 20,000 ventilators I would imagine face masks shouldn't be too much of a problem given enough time. The first stage is accepting that they can reduce transmission,

Wear a scarf, or a buff.

Longshot

surrey_commuter said:

Longshot said:

Anyone seen how Sweden's curve is going? I had a quick look and can find vanilla numbers but the curve is the interesting comparison for them.

Not sure what vanilla numbers are but for those who like trading economics this is a similarly awesome site
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

I am sorting by deaths as cases seems arbitrary. Recovered seems interesting.

What I meant was I could find the basic numbers (from the site you linked) but couldn't find an uptodate curve for Sweden.

Longshot

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

It's not so much the money as the logistics.

If industry can knock up 20,000 ventilators I would imagine face masks shouldn't be too much of a problem given enough time. The first stage is accepting that they can reduce transmission,

Wear a scarf, or a buff.

T
Yet the advice remains that this is pointless or close.

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

It's not so much the money as the logistics.

If industry can knock up 20,000 ventilators I would imagine face masks shouldn't be too much of a problem given enough time. The first stage is accepting that they can reduce transmission,

Wear a scarf, or a buff.

That's like solving the problem by one person self-isolating

rjsterry

Most of us generally healthy people don't access the NHS very much. I have about one doctor's appointment every 3-4years. Having children ramps that interaction up significantly, as RC is finding and it can be a bit of a shock. They don't get everything right but over the last 10 years, I'd say at least 95% of it has been excellent.

rick_chasey

rjsterry said:

Most of us generally healthy people don't access the NHS very much. I have about one doctor's appointment every 3-4years. Having children ramps that interaction up significantly, as RC is finding and it can be a bit of a shock. They don't get everything right but over the last 10 years, I'd say at least 95% of it has been excellent.

I won't go into details but their negligence, just by virtue of being overstretched have resulted in rather dramatic, serious and avoidable complications, so I don't think my experience matches yours.

kingstongraham

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

It's not so much the money as the logistics.

If industry can knock up 20,000 ventilators I would imagine face masks shouldn't be too much of a problem given enough time. The first stage is accepting that they can reduce transmission,

Wear a scarf, or a buff.

That's like solving the problem by one person self-isolating

In what way? I am expecting everyone to wear a mask when in public areas where there are other people. If there is an issue with getting masks, then something else will help.

I don't expect there to be a problem with the number of face masks though.

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

Most of us generally healthy people don't access the NHS very much. I have about one doctor's appointment every 3-4years. Having children ramps that interaction up significantly, as RC is finding and it can be a bit of a shock. They don't get everything right but over the last 10 years, I'd say at least 95% of it has been excellent.

I won't go into details but their negligence, just by virtue of being overstretched have resulted in rather dramatic, serious and avoidable complications, so I don't think my experience matches yours.

There are essentially two problems (i) not enough money (ii) managers are not valued. You can blame the Tories/ Lib Dems for the abolition of the PCTs which was an incredibly silly thing to do, and has taken the health service years to recover from.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

Most of us generally healthy people don't access the NHS very much. I have about one doctor's appointment every 3-4years. Having children ramps that interaction up significantly, as RC is finding and it can be a bit of a shock. They don't get everything right but over the last 10 years, I'd say at least 95% of it has been excellent.

I won't go into details but their negligence, just by virtue of being overstretched have resulted in rather dramatic, serious and avoidable complications, so I don't think my experience matches yours.

I can completely appreciate that. Again without going into details, the 5% that wasn't excellent was really quite poor, and not as a result of being overstretched either.

surrey_commuter

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

It's not so much the money as the logistics.

If industry can knock up 20,000 ventilators I would imagine face masks shouldn't be too much of a problem given enough time. The first stage is accepting that they can reduce transmission,

Reminds me of the old question “when is the best time to plant a tree”
Answer “twenty years ago, the second best time is today”

surrey_commuter

Trump is criticising BoJo’s handling of the pandemic.

TheBigBean

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

It's not so much the money as the logistics.

If industry can knock up 20,000 ventilators I would imagine face masks shouldn't be too much of a problem given enough time. The first stage is accepting that they can reduce transmission,

Wear a scarf, or a buff.

That's like solving the problem by one person self-isolating

In what way? I am expecting everyone to wear a mask when in public areas where there are other people. If there is an issue with getting masks, then something else will help.

I don't expect there to be a problem with the number of face masks though.

I thought you were suggesting that I should wear a scarf and no one else. My apologies for misunderstanding.

kingstongraham

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/31/health/cdc-masks-coronavirus.html

CDC current guidelines: “If you are sick: You should wear a face mask, if available, when you are around other people (including before you enter a health care provider’s office). If you are caring for others: If the person who is sick is not able to wear a face mask (for example, because it causes trouble breathing), then as their caregiver, you should wear a face mask when in the same room with them. Visitors, other than caregivers, are not recommended. Note: During a public health emergency, face masks may be reserved for health care workers. You may need to improvise a face mask using a scarf or bandana.”

Dr. Scott Gottlieb, the former commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration, said in an interview on Sunday that the C.D.C. should put out designs for cloth masks for the public. “The value of the mask isn’t necessarily to protect you from getting sick, although it may offer some protection,” he told CBS News. “It’s to protect you from other people. So when someone who’s infected is wearing a mask, they’re much less likely to transmit infection.”

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

ddraver said:

See also the surgery in S. Wales who tried to persuade similar people to sign pre-emptive DNRs...

The Netherlands have certainly taken an interesting approach...

Rick is unusually quiet on the way the Dutch are doing things whilst acting as though the UK response is the worst in Europe.

I don't know anything about the Dutch response, but I do know their behaviour in the EU is shameful and they should be given a firm smack behind closed doors.


I do know there is a culture around quality of end-of-life and there are endless discussions about the perils of living too long or living with terrible health, and they are more fatalistic about their life than in the UK, so the idea of a Dr telling an 80 yr old man the above is not an enormous shock to me.

I have no idea if they're any better than the UK. I suspect on a very basic level, Netherlands, Scandis etc, have less poverty and so are naturally a little healthier on balance, but who knows.

Maybe you should go and have a look - below is a link to help you. Their stats are markedly worse than ours on both a cases and deaths per million of population - and people there were still free to wander around outside until after we went into lock down.
https://worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Have you considered going and preaching to the Dutch about what they're doing wrong?

Pross

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

ddraver said:

See also the surgery in S. Wales who tried to persuade similar people to sign pre-emptive DNRs...

The Netherlands have certainly taken an interesting approach...

Rick is unusually quiet on the way the Dutch are doing things whilst acting as though the UK response is the worst in Europe.

I don't know anything about the Dutch response, but I do know their behaviour in the EU is shameful and they should be given a firm smack behind closed doors.


I do know there is a culture around quality of end-of-life and there are endless discussions about the perils of living too long or living with terrible health, and they are more fatalistic about their life than in the UK, so the idea of a Dr telling an 80 yr old man the above is not an enormous shock to me.

I have no idea if they're any better than the UK. I suspect on a very basic level, Netherlands, Scandis etc, have less poverty and so are naturally a little healthier on balance, but who knows.

This is something I actually feel is a big issue in the UK, we seem to put a lot of effort and resources into prolonging existence. I use the word existence as I'm talking about where a person is already living with the illness that is going to kill them and their quality of life is non-existent e.g. living on life support for years or being on oxygen at home and being unable to leave your own house. I'm never quite sure whether it is medical people keeping them alive because they can, families being reluctant to let a loved one go (which I can understand) or the patients themselves just preferring to live a bit longer rather than having high quality palliative care. It's obviously a very difficult subject to discuss and I suspect someone will misinterpret the above but to try to be clear I'm not saying treatment shouldn't be given to prolong life and certainly not advocating euthanasia just that the quality of the additional life often needs greater consideration.

tailwindhome

Interesting change of emphasis from the FT data journalists

https://www.ft.com/coronavirus-latest

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

ddraver said:

See also the surgery in S. Wales who tried to persuade similar people to sign pre-emptive DNRs...

The Netherlands have certainly taken an interesting approach...

Rick is unusually quiet on the way the Dutch are doing things whilst acting as though the UK response is the worst in Europe.

I don't know anything about the Dutch response, but I do know their behaviour in the EU is shameful and they should be given a firm smack behind closed doors.


I do know there is a culture around quality of end-of-life and there are endless discussions about the perils of living too long or living with terrible health, and they are more fatalistic about their life than in the UK, so the idea of a Dr telling an 80 yr old man the above is not an enormous shock to me.

I have no idea if they're any better than the UK. I suspect on a very basic level, Netherlands, Scandis etc, have less poverty and so are naturally a little healthier on balance, but who knows.

Maybe you should go and have a look - below is a link to help you. Their stats are markedly worse than ours on both a cases and deaths per million of population - and people there were still free to wander around outside until after we went into lock down.
https://worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Have you considered going and preaching to the Dutch about what they're doing wrong?

It's not really relevant to the UK is it? I could also bang on about how terrible Iran has handled it but again.

If they've made the same mistake as the UK gov't had then shame on their gov't. They have not covered themselves in international glory already.

nickice

kingstonian said:

My in-laws live in Holland. The father in law is in his early 80's and has underlying health issues, and was told in no uncertain terms by his GP a few days ago that if he gets Covid-19 he won't get a place in ICU. We don't know to what extent that is a true statement, or if it was a shot across his bows to not be a stubborn old fool and to pay attention to the lockdown instructions, but it was pretty stark to hear.

Is this not pretty standard anyway? People only get ICU if they would actually benefit from it. My grandmother is 101 and they would never put her on a ventilator, for example, as there is very little chance she'd survive.

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

ddraver said:

See also the surgery in S. Wales who tried to persuade similar people to sign pre-emptive DNRs...

The Netherlands have certainly taken an interesting approach...

Rick is unusually quiet on the way the Dutch are doing things whilst acting as though the UK response is the worst in Europe.

I don't know anything about the Dutch response, but I do know their behaviour in the EU is shameful and they should be given a firm smack behind closed doors.


I do know there is a culture around quality of end-of-life and there are endless discussions about the perils of living too long or living with terrible health, and they are more fatalistic about their life than in the UK, so the idea of a Dr telling an 80 yr old man the above is not an enormous shock to me.

I have no idea if they're any better than the UK. I suspect on a very basic level, Netherlands, Scandis etc, have less poverty and so are naturally a little healthier on balance, but who knows.

Maybe you should go and have a look - below is a link to help you. Their stats are markedly worse than ours on both a cases and deaths per million of population - and people there were still free to wander around outside until after we went into lock down.
https://worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Have you considered going and preaching to the Dutch about what they're doing wrong?

We could be doing worse. That's obvious. No reason to put our feet up, pat ourselves on the back and think everything is dandy, though.
Overall policy and timing of interventions - we'll only really know whether we called that right (or at least the best we could have) in a couple of years when we have all the data to pick apart. The lack of testing capability and supply of PPE is just a straight f*** up.

kingstonian

nickice said:

kingstonian said:

My in-laws live in Holland. The father in law is in his early 80's and has underlying health issues, and was told in no uncertain terms by his GP a few days ago that if he gets Covid-19 he won't get a place in ICU. We don't know to what extent that is a true statement, or if it was a shot across his bows to not be a stubborn old fool and to pay attention to the lockdown instructions, but it was pretty stark to hear.

Is this not pretty standard anyway? People only get ICU if they would actually benefit from it. My grandmother is 101 and they would never put her on a ventilator, for example, as there is very little chance she'd survive.

I don't think that in normal circumstances it would be put in such stark terms.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

ddraver said:

See also the surgery in S. Wales who tried to persuade similar people to sign pre-emptive DNRs...

The Netherlands have certainly taken an interesting approach...

Rick is unusually quiet on the way the Dutch are doing things whilst acting as though the UK response is the worst in Europe.

I don't know anything about the Dutch response, but I do know their behaviour in the EU is shameful and they should be given a firm smack behind closed doors.


I do know there is a culture around quality of end-of-life and there are endless discussions about the perils of living too long or living with terrible health, and they are more fatalistic about their life than in the UK, so the idea of a Dr telling an 80 yr old man the above is not an enormous shock to me.

I have no idea if they're any better than the UK. I suspect on a very basic level, Netherlands, Scandis etc, have less poverty and so are naturally a little healthier on balance, but who knows.

Maybe you should go and have a look - below is a link to help you. Their stats are markedly worse than ours on both a cases and deaths per million of population - and people there were still free to wander around outside until after we went into lock down.
https://worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Have you considered going and preaching to the Dutch about what they're doing wrong?

It's not really relevant to the UK is it? I could also bang on about how terrible Iran has handled it but again.

If they've made the same mistake as the UK gov't had then shame on their gov't. They have not covered themselves in international glory already.

It is very relevant when someone is continually banging on about how badly the UK is handling this crisis and making out that we are 'bottom of the heap'. When that does not appear to be the case looking at the facts.

rick_chasey

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

ddraver said:

See also the surgery in S. Wales who tried to persuade similar people to sign pre-emptive DNRs...

The Netherlands have certainly taken an interesting approach...

Rick is unusually quiet on the way the Dutch are doing things whilst acting as though the UK response is the worst in Europe.

I don't know anything about the Dutch response, but I do know their behaviour in the EU is shameful and they should be given a firm smack behind closed doors.


I do know there is a culture around quality of end-of-life and there are endless discussions about the perils of living too long or living with terrible health, and they are more fatalistic about their life than in the UK, so the idea of a Dr telling an 80 yr old man the above is not an enormous shock to me.

I have no idea if they're any better than the UK. I suspect on a very basic level, Netherlands, Scandis etc, have less poverty and so are naturally a little healthier on balance, but who knows.

Maybe you should go and have a look - below is a link to help you. Their stats are markedly worse than ours on both a cases and deaths per million of population - and people there were still free to wander around outside until after we went into lock down.
https://worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Have you considered going and preaching to the Dutch about what they're doing wrong?

It's not really relevant to the UK is it? I could also bang on about how terrible Iran has handled it but again.

If they've made the same mistake as the UK gov't had then shame on their gov't. They have not covered themselves in international glory already.

It is very relevant when someone is continually banging on about how badly the UK is handling this crisis and making out that we are 'bottom of the heap'. When that does not appear to be the case looking at the facts.

Where have I said it's at the 'bottom of the heap'?

it's supposed to be a world leader in healthcare, but yet it can't equip the health staff, nor can it make anywhere near enough tests?

Longshot

WHO opinion on face masks:


https://weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/who-should-wear-a-face-mask-30-march-who-briefing/

tailwindhome

https://twitter.com/mattwridley/status/1245360268206538754?s=20

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Stevo_666 said:

rick_chasey said:

Pross said:

ddraver said:

See also the surgery in S. Wales who tried to persuade similar people to sign pre-emptive DNRs...

The Netherlands have certainly taken an interesting approach...

Rick is unusually quiet on the way the Dutch are doing things whilst acting as though the UK response is the worst in Europe.

I don't know anything about the Dutch response, but I do know their behaviour in the EU is shameful and they should be given a firm smack behind closed doors.


I do know there is a culture around quality of end-of-life and there are endless discussions about the perils of living too long or living with terrible health, and they are more fatalistic about their life than in the UK, so the idea of a Dr telling an 80 yr old man the above is not an enormous shock to me.

I have no idea if they're any better than the UK. I suspect on a very basic level, Netherlands, Scandis etc, have less poverty and so are naturally a little healthier on balance, but who knows.

Maybe you should go and have a look - below is a link to help you. Their stats are markedly worse than ours on both a cases and deaths per million of population - and people there were still free to wander around outside until after we went into lock down.
https://worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Have you considered going and preaching to the Dutch about what they're doing wrong?

It's not really relevant to the UK is it? I could also bang on about how terrible Iran has handled it but again.

If they've made the same mistake as the UK gov't had then shame on their gov't. They have not covered themselves in international glory already.

It is very relevant when someone is continually banging on about how badly the UK is handling this crisis and making out that we are 'bottom of the heap'. When that does not appear to be the case looking at the facts.

Where have I said it's at the 'bottom of the heap'?

it's supposed to be a world leader in healthcare, but yet it can't equip the health staff, nor can it make anywhere near enough tests?

You don't deny you are banging on about it. If weren't trying to imply we were bottom of the heap why the focus solely on the UK's perceived shortcomings? And point me to where you have said we are doing anything better than any other country.

Pross

rjsterry said:

Most of us generally healthy people don't access the NHS very much. I have about one doctor's appointment every 3-4years. Having children ramps that interaction up significantly, as RC is finding and it can be a bit of a shock. They don't get everything right but over the last 10 years, I'd say at least 95% of it has been excellent.

I'd go along with that. About 12 years ago my youngest had a brain tumour, we were back and forth to the GP for several months and they put it down to everything from reflex to stress at starting school before finally referring us to a paediatrician who instantly diagnosed the tumour (within minutes of our daughter walking into the room). She was given a CAT scan within hours then transferred to another hospital where she had an MRI the same evening. That was on a Friday, on the Monday she was straight in for surgery that took over 12 hours and kept in for around a further week. We then had a month or so waiting for test results and then 18 months of outpatient / home chemo together with a few stays during infections and lots of outpatient appointments (scans, eye tests, hearing tests, oncology checks). The emergency treatment, chemo and hospital stays genuinely couldn't have been better under any system, I had private healthcare that we could have used but it wouldn't have been worthwhile. Some of the outpatient stuff wasn't as positive (long waits, going in for scans that required a general anaesthetic and getting bumped off the list etc.) which was frustrating but then you realise you were on the other side at the critical points, getting the urgent attention while someone else was getting bumped.

The experience when my mother-in-law was admitted about 18 months back was the same.

My opinion of GPs isn't great though, I very rarely use them but when I do they act as though I'm wasting their time (as with the case above).

ddraver

Stevo_666 said:

It is very relevant otherwise my whataboutery doesn't work!!.

FTFY

tailwindhome

Stevo_666 said:

Maybe you should go and have a look - below is a link to help you. Their stats are markedly worse than ours on both a cases and deaths per million of population - and people there were still free to wander around outside until after we went into lock down.

The discussion on the data visualizations by the FT was interesting on the use of 'per million' stats said that this added nothing to the analysis.

If you try to analyse on that basis all you learn is that some countries are big and some are small.

Make of that what you will, I found it interesting.

kingstongraham

Longshot said:

WHO opinion on face masks:



https://weforum.org/agenda/2020/03/who-should-wear-a-face-mask-30-march-who-briefing/

Fixed your link.

I think at the moment they don't want to suggest there is any form of shortcut that might distract from distancing. Eventually, I expect this to be something that people just do when the lockdown is eased.