The big Coronavirus thread
Comments
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I see recent history is not your specialist subject. At the point large numbers of the old were being released into care homes can you agree that there were not enough tests in the UK to facilitate this system just for this group. So given you don't know who has covid and who has not then how can you release anyone from hospital to anything other than their own home because they are self sufficient. So now you have release no one into the care sector until testing becomes available for the next few months maybe 4 weeks if we are being generous. What happens to hospitals over this period. Do they continue to work well with 4 weeks of patients destined for the care sector being unable to be released or do they collapse. Have a look at occupancy figures for UK hospitals and this might give you a clue as to how they would fare.First.Aspect said:
This post beggars belief.john80 said:
If they did not release people from hospital and many people would have died in hospital corridors Would this also be illegal.rick_chasey said:
Have a ponder about why this might be an analogy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
If we delve deeper and look at a guaranteed way to release people into care homes it would look more like a reception centre we quarantined people in for 14 days. Now if you need medicine 4 times a day and to be taken to the toilet how are you managing that system and the subsequent transfer to ensure that no one ever leaves the NHS and takes covid to the care home setting.
For sure the large scale release in Scotland for example of thousands into the care sector to free up beds was probably illegal. However was it necessary and was it a reasonable decision given the circumstances or are you going to bring up Thyphoid Mary as a good example again?0 -
It is exactly the same thing in Scotland.john80 said:
I see recent history is not your specialist subject. At the point large numbers of the old were being released into care homes can you agree that there were not enough tests in the UK to facilitate this system just for this group. So given you don't know who has covid and who has not then how can you release anyone from hospital to anything other than their own home because they are self sufficient. So now you have release no one into the care sector until testing becomes available for the next few months maybe 4 weeks if we are being generous. What happens to hospitals over this period. Do they continue to work well with 4 weeks of patients destined for the care sector being unable to be released or do they collapse. Have a look at occupancy figures for UK hospitals and this might give you a clue as to how they would fare.First.Aspect said:
This post beggars belief.john80 said:
If they did not release people from hospital and many people would have died in hospital corridors Would this also be illegal.rick_chasey said:
Have a ponder about why this might be an analogy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
If we delve deeper and look at a guaranteed way to release people into care homes it would look more like a reception centre we quarantined people in for 14 days. Now if you need medicine 4 times a day and to be taken to the toilet how are you managing that system and the subsequent transfer to ensure that no one ever leaves the NHS and takes covid to the care home setting.
For sure the large scale release in Scotland for example of thousands into the care sector to free up beds was probably illegal. However was it necessary and was it a reasonable decision given the circumstances or are you going to bring up Thyphoid Mary as a good example again?
The policy in both cases was releasing people with suspected covid back into care homes and trying to isolate them there. So they knew they had covid and knew they needed to be isolated, and the judgment says the policy wasnt evidence based. So there's a distinction between using hindsight in relation to an informed and evidence based decision, and using hindsight to criticise a decision made on the hoof.
The SNP will come under the spotlight as well and will earnestly say it was a mistake with the best intentions, but not acknowledge that there wasn't a particular reason why this decision wasn't treated and assessed on the sort of advice that other difficult decisions were supported by around the same time.
It isn't that complicated.
Pretty sure you were one of the "they'd have died soon anyway" brigade weren't you?0 -
How many typhoid Mary's are needed before the analogy does not work. We have been running a max occupancy NHS and social care system yet you think there was all this float to make a different decision in this circumstance. Pragmatists work with the variables they have. Fantasists work with the world as they would like it to be. Pretty sure your the latter.First.Aspect said:
It is exactly the same thing in Scotland.john80 said:
I see recent history is not your specialist subject. At the point large numbers of the old were being released into care homes can you agree that there were not enough tests in the UK to facilitate this system just for this group. So given you don't know who has covid and who has not then how can you release anyone from hospital to anything other than their own home because they are self sufficient. So now you have release no one into the care sector until testing becomes available for the next few months maybe 4 weeks if we are being generous. What happens to hospitals over this period. Do they continue to work well with 4 weeks of patients destined for the care sector being unable to be released or do they collapse. Have a look at occupancy figures for UK hospitals and this might give you a clue as to how they would fare.First.Aspect said:
This post beggars belief.john80 said:
If they did not release people from hospital and many people would have died in hospital corridors Would this also be illegal.rick_chasey said:
Have a ponder about why this might be an analogy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
If we delve deeper and look at a guaranteed way to release people into care homes it would look more like a reception centre we quarantined people in for 14 days. Now if you need medicine 4 times a day and to be taken to the toilet how are you managing that system and the subsequent transfer to ensure that no one ever leaves the NHS and takes covid to the care home setting.
For sure the large scale release in Scotland for example of thousands into the care sector to free up beds was probably illegal. However was it necessary and was it a reasonable decision given the circumstances or are you going to bring up Thyphoid Mary as a good example again?
The policy in both cases was releasing people with suspected covid back into care homes and trying to isolate them there. So they knew they had covid and knew they needed to be isolated, and the judgment says the policy wasnt evidence based. So there's a distinction between using hindsight in relation to an informed and evidence based decision, and using hindsight to criticise a decision made on the hoof.
The SNP will come under the spotlight as well and will earnestly say it was a mistake with the best intentions, but not acknowledge that there wasn't a particular reason why this decision wasn't treated and assessed on the sort of advice that other difficult decisions were supported by around the same time.
It isn't that complicated.
Pretty sure you were one of the "they'd have died soon anyway" brigade weren't you?0 -
I don't think it's pragmatic to introduce a virus into a setting where the inhabitants of that setting are extremely vulnarable.
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I do love how people love to wrap up being heartless as being pragmatic.0
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I'm pretty sure that many wards in hospitals were unusually quiet at this point of the pandemic as all routine procedures etc. had been postponed. Therefore they probably had the space to keep these people in the hospital until they were certain they were no longer contagious rather than sending them somewhere that keeping them isolated and protecting other vulnerable people would be even harder.john80 said:
How many typhoid Mary's are needed before the analogy does not work. We have been running a max occupancy NHS and social care system yet you think there was all this float to make a different decision in this circumstance. Pragmatists work with the variables they have. Fantasists work with the world as they would like it to be. Pretty sure your the latter.First.Aspect said:
It is exactly the same thing in Scotland.john80 said:
I see recent history is not your specialist subject. At the point large numbers of the old were being released into care homes can you agree that there were not enough tests in the UK to facilitate this system just for this group. So given you don't know who has covid and who has not then how can you release anyone from hospital to anything other than their own home because they are self sufficient. So now you have release no one into the care sector until testing becomes available for the next few months maybe 4 weeks if we are being generous. What happens to hospitals over this period. Do they continue to work well with 4 weeks of patients destined for the care sector being unable to be released or do they collapse. Have a look at occupancy figures for UK hospitals and this might give you a clue as to how they would fare.First.Aspect said:
This post beggars belief.john80 said:
If they did not release people from hospital and many people would have died in hospital corridors Would this also be illegal.rick_chasey said:
Have a ponder about why this might be an analogy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
If we delve deeper and look at a guaranteed way to release people into care homes it would look more like a reception centre we quarantined people in for 14 days. Now if you need medicine 4 times a day and to be taken to the toilet how are you managing that system and the subsequent transfer to ensure that no one ever leaves the NHS and takes covid to the care home setting.
For sure the large scale release in Scotland for example of thousands into the care sector to free up beds was probably illegal. However was it necessary and was it a reasonable decision given the circumstances or are you going to bring up Thyphoid Mary as a good example again?
The policy in both cases was releasing people with suspected covid back into care homes and trying to isolate them there. So they knew they had covid and knew they needed to be isolated, and the judgment says the policy wasnt evidence based. So there's a distinction between using hindsight in relation to an informed and evidence based decision, and using hindsight to criticise a decision made on the hoof.
The SNP will come under the spotlight as well and will earnestly say it was a mistake with the best intentions, but not acknowledge that there wasn't a particular reason why this decision wasn't treated and assessed on the sort of advice that other difficult decisions were supported by around the same time.
It isn't that complicated.
Pretty sure you were one of the "they'd have died soon anyway" brigade weren't you?0 -
Don't shoot the messenger.john80 said:
How many typhoid Mary's are needed before the analogy does not work. We have been running a max occupancy NHS and social care system yet you think there was all this float to make a different decision in this circumstance. Pragmatists work with the variables they have. Fantasists work with the world as they would like it to be. Pretty sure your the latter.First.Aspect said:
It is exactly the same thing in Scotland.john80 said:
I see recent history is not your specialist subject. At the point large numbers of the old were being released into care homes can you agree that there were not enough tests in the UK to facilitate this system just for this group. So given you don't know who has covid and who has not then how can you release anyone from hospital to anything other than their own home because they are self sufficient. So now you have release no one into the care sector until testing becomes available for the next few months maybe 4 weeks if we are being generous. What happens to hospitals over this period. Do they continue to work well with 4 weeks of patients destined for the care sector being unable to be released or do they collapse. Have a look at occupancy figures for UK hospitals and this might give you a clue as to how they would fare.First.Aspect said:
This post beggars belief.john80 said:
If they did not release people from hospital and many people would have died in hospital corridors Would this also be illegal.rick_chasey said:
Have a ponder about why this might be an analogy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
If we delve deeper and look at a guaranteed way to release people into care homes it would look more like a reception centre we quarantined people in for 14 days. Now if you need medicine 4 times a day and to be taken to the toilet how are you managing that system and the subsequent transfer to ensure that no one ever leaves the NHS and takes covid to the care home setting.
For sure the large scale release in Scotland for example of thousands into the care sector to free up beds was probably illegal. However was it necessary and was it a reasonable decision given the circumstances or are you going to bring up Thyphoid Mary as a good example again?
The policy in both cases was releasing people with suspected covid back into care homes and trying to isolate them there. So they knew they had covid and knew they needed to be isolated, and the judgment says the policy wasnt evidence based. So there's a distinction between using hindsight in relation to an informed and evidence based decision, and using hindsight to criticise a decision made on the hoof.
The SNP will come under the spotlight as well and will earnestly say it was a mistake with the best intentions, but not acknowledge that there wasn't a particular reason why this decision wasn't treated and assessed on the sort of advice that other difficult decisions were supported by around the same time.
It isn't that complicated.
Pretty sure you were one of the "they'd have died soon anyway" brigade weren't you?
Out of curiosity of you had to dump a group of people with covid back into society, do you think it would be better to do so to very vulnerable people, such as old people, or some other group of people, such as anyone else?
Just following your reasoning here to see where it goes....0 -
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It’s an interesting topic. I think we are at a stage where people are getting on with things which is no bad place to be.ddraver said:
But I do think it’s a shame that all the hope from early in the pandemic that people would no longer come into the workplace obviously unwell has been lost.0 -
Looks like the person was let go during their probation period.
Two sides to every story and all, but difficult to see wagamamas coming out well.0 -
Go and have a look at your average non specialist ward in a hospital. It generally is not filled with the young and fit. It is filled mainly with the old and infirm that are being patched up to go back to social care. They had already cancelled the elective surgeries that would take up beds that are more representative of wider society. In an ideal world we would have had testing available, set up quarantine social care that transited into normal social care in a safe or as safe as possible manner. How many months and millions if not billions of pounds do you think this would take with your crystal ball directing proceedings. Do you think they could have done it in January when first reports started coming out. They would still have failed and guess what it would have been a big call for any government to be so preemptive.First.Aspect said:
Don't shoot the messenger.john80 said:
How many typhoid Mary's are needed before the analogy does not work. We have been running a max occupancy NHS and social care system yet you think there was all this float to make a different decision in this circumstance. Pragmatists work with the variables they have. Fantasists work with the world as they would like it to be. Pretty sure your the latter.First.Aspect said:
It is exactly the same thing in Scotland.john80 said:
I see recent history is not your specialist subject. At the point large numbers of the old were being released into care homes can you agree that there were not enough tests in the UK to facilitate this system just for this group. So given you don't know who has covid and who has not then how can you release anyone from hospital to anything other than their own home because they are self sufficient. So now you have release no one into the care sector until testing becomes available for the next few months maybe 4 weeks if we are being generous. What happens to hospitals over this period. Do they continue to work well with 4 weeks of patients destined for the care sector being unable to be released or do they collapse. Have a look at occupancy figures for UK hospitals and this might give you a clue as to how they would fare.First.Aspect said:
This post beggars belief.john80 said:
If they did not release people from hospital and many people would have died in hospital corridors Would this also be illegal.rick_chasey said:
Have a ponder about why this might be an analogy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
If we delve deeper and look at a guaranteed way to release people into care homes it would look more like a reception centre we quarantined people in for 14 days. Now if you need medicine 4 times a day and to be taken to the toilet how are you managing that system and the subsequent transfer to ensure that no one ever leaves the NHS and takes covid to the care home setting.
For sure the large scale release in Scotland for example of thousands into the care sector to free up beds was probably illegal. However was it necessary and was it a reasonable decision given the circumstances or are you going to bring up Thyphoid Mary as a good example again?
The policy in both cases was releasing people with suspected covid back into care homes and trying to isolate them there. So they knew they had covid and knew they needed to be isolated, and the judgment says the policy wasnt evidence based. So there's a distinction between using hindsight in relation to an informed and evidence based decision, and using hindsight to criticise a decision made on the hoof.
The SNP will come under the spotlight as well and will earnestly say it was a mistake with the best intentions, but not acknowledge that there wasn't a particular reason why this decision wasn't treated and assessed on the sort of advice that other difficult decisions were supported by around the same time.
It isn't that complicated.
Pretty sure you were one of the "they'd have died soon anyway" brigade weren't you?
Out of curiosity of you had to dump a group of people with covid back into society, do you think it would be better to do so to very vulnerable people, such as old people, or some other group of people, such as anyone else?
Just following your reasoning here to see where it goes....1 -
If this is the case then why did Sturgeons Scottish health department dump 5000 patients out to social care. Your saying their was plenty of space to keep them. Who is wrong.Pross said:
I'm pretty sure that many wards in hospitals were unusually quiet at this point of the pandemic as all routine procedures etc. had been postponed. Therefore they probably had the space to keep these people in the hospital until they were certain they were no longer contagious rather than sending them somewhere that keeping them isolated and protecting other vulnerable people would be even harder.john80 said:
How many typhoid Mary's are needed before the analogy does not work. We have been running a max occupancy NHS and social care system yet you think there was all this float to make a different decision in this circumstance. Pragmatists work with the variables they have. Fantasists work with the world as they would like it to be. Pretty sure your the latter.First.Aspect said:
It is exactly the same thing in Scotland.john80 said:
I see recent history is not your specialist subject. At the point large numbers of the old were being released into care homes can you agree that there were not enough tests in the UK to facilitate this system just for this group. So given you don't know who has covid and who has not then how can you release anyone from hospital to anything other than their own home because they are self sufficient. So now you have release no one into the care sector until testing becomes available for the next few months maybe 4 weeks if we are being generous. What happens to hospitals over this period. Do they continue to work well with 4 weeks of patients destined for the care sector being unable to be released or do they collapse. Have a look at occupancy figures for UK hospitals and this might give you a clue as to how they would fare.First.Aspect said:
This post beggars belief.john80 said:
If they did not release people from hospital and many people would have died in hospital corridors Would this also be illegal.rick_chasey said:
Have a ponder about why this might be an analogy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
If we delve deeper and look at a guaranteed way to release people into care homes it would look more like a reception centre we quarantined people in for 14 days. Now if you need medicine 4 times a day and to be taken to the toilet how are you managing that system and the subsequent transfer to ensure that no one ever leaves the NHS and takes covid to the care home setting.
For sure the large scale release in Scotland for example of thousands into the care sector to free up beds was probably illegal. However was it necessary and was it a reasonable decision given the circumstances or are you going to bring up Thyphoid Mary as a good example again?
The policy in both cases was releasing people with suspected covid back into care homes and trying to isolate them there. So they knew they had covid and knew they needed to be isolated, and the judgment says the policy wasnt evidence based. So there's a distinction between using hindsight in relation to an informed and evidence based decision, and using hindsight to criticise a decision made on the hoof.
The SNP will come under the spotlight as well and will earnestly say it was a mistake with the best intentions, but not acknowledge that there wasn't a particular reason why this decision wasn't treated and assessed on the sort of advice that other difficult decisions were supported by around the same time.
It isn't that complicated.
Pretty sure you were one of the "they'd have died soon anyway" brigade weren't you?0 -
If in doubt it's usually you Johnjohn80 said:
If this is the case then why did Sturgeons Scottish health department dump 5000 patients out to social care. Your saying their was plenty of space to keep them. Who is wrong.Pross said:
I'm pretty sure that many wards in hospitals were unusually quiet at this point of the pandemic as all routine procedures etc. had been postponed. Therefore they probably had the space to keep these people in the hospital until they were certain they were no longer contagious rather than sending them somewhere that keeping them isolated and protecting other vulnerable people would be even harder.john80 said:
How many typhoid Mary's are needed before the analogy does not work. We have been running a max occupancy NHS and social care system yet you think there was all this float to make a different decision in this circumstance. Pragmatists work with the variables they have. Fantasists work with the world as they would like it to be. Pretty sure your the latter.First.Aspect said:
It is exactly the same thing in Scotland.john80 said:
I see recent history is not your specialist subject. At the point large numbers of the old were being released into care homes can you agree that there were not enough tests in the UK to facilitate this system just for this group. So given you don't know who has covid and who has not then how can you release anyone from hospital to anything other than their own home because they are self sufficient. So now you have release no one into the care sector until testing becomes available for the next few months maybe 4 weeks if we are being generous. What happens to hospitals over this period. Do they continue to work well with 4 weeks of patients destined for the care sector being unable to be released or do they collapse. Have a look at occupancy figures for UK hospitals and this might give you a clue as to how they would fare.First.Aspect said:
This post beggars belief.john80 said:
If they did not release people from hospital and many people would have died in hospital corridors Would this also be illegal.rick_chasey said:
Have a ponder about why this might be an analogy.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Mallon
If we delve deeper and look at a guaranteed way to release people into care homes it would look more like a reception centre we quarantined people in for 14 days. Now if you need medicine 4 times a day and to be taken to the toilet how are you managing that system and the subsequent transfer to ensure that no one ever leaves the NHS and takes covid to the care home setting.
For sure the large scale release in Scotland for example of thousands into the care sector to free up beds was probably illegal. However was it necessary and was it a reasonable decision given the circumstances or are you going to bring up Thyphoid Mary as a good example again?
The policy in both cases was releasing people with suspected covid back into care homes and trying to isolate them there. So they knew they had covid and knew they needed to be isolated, and the judgment says the policy wasnt evidence based. So there's a distinction between using hindsight in relation to an informed and evidence based decision, and using hindsight to criticise a decision made on the hoof.
The SNP will come under the spotlight as well and will earnestly say it was a mistake with the best intentions, but not acknowledge that there wasn't a particular reason why this decision wasn't treated and assessed on the sort of advice that other difficult decisions were supported by around the same time.
It isn't that complicated.
Pretty sure you were one of the "they'd have died soon anyway" brigade weren't you?- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono1 -
Ugh.
We've reached the 'I've only got a little bit of Covid; can we still do the face to face meeting?' stage.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
It's going to be tough when the complacency is set in if it all kicks off again come winter, which relative to the flu it probably will. Resulting in extra stress on the NHS.
I still haven't had Covid and wear a mask in public places when viable, to protect a family member. If it works just a bit I'm happy to carry on. It's still the done thing in hospitals.0 -
focuszing723 said:
It's going to be tough when the complacency is set in if it all kicks off again come winter, which relative to the flu it probably will. Resulting in extra stress on the NHS.
I still haven't had Covid and wear a mask in public places when viable, to protect a family member. If it works just a bit I'm happy to carry on. It's still the done thing in hospitals.
Meanwhile, on Planet Telegraph...
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An interesting article on England's 'gamble' on ending restrictions while omicron was on the march... tl;dr - it was a good hunch.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/12/ending-englands-covid-restrictions-was-divisive-but-the-data-shows-we-were-right0 -
briantrumpet said:focuszing723 said:
It's going to be tough when the complacency is set in if it all kicks off again come winter, which relative to the flu it probably will. Resulting in extra stress on the NHS.
I still haven't had Covid and wear a mask in public places when viable, to protect a family member. If it works just a bit I'm happy to carry on. It's still the done thing in hospitals.
Meanwhile, on Planet Telegraph...
It’s “Sir Kier Starmer” to you, Madeline.
And they’re obsessed with Karl Marx!Ben
Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/ben_h_ppcc/
Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/143173475@N05/0 -
Quite happy to admit that I was wrong then.briantrumpet said:An interesting article on England's 'gamble' on ending restrictions while omicron was on the march... tl;dr - it was a good hunch.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/12/ending-englands-covid-restrictions-was-divisive-but-the-data-shows-we-were-right
This is a good thing.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.1 -
Can't help but feel that the South Africans did tell us not to worry.briantrumpet said:An interesting article on England's 'gamble' on ending restrictions while omicron was on the march... tl;dr - it was a good hunch.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/12/ending-englands-covid-restrictions-was-divisive-but-the-data-shows-we-were-right0 -
Jezyboy said:
Can't help but feel that the South Africans did tell us not to worry.briantrumpet said:An interesting article on England's 'gamble' on ending restrictions while omicron was on the march... tl;dr - it was a good hunch.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/12/ending-englands-covid-restrictions-was-divisive-but-the-data-shows-we-were-right
Meanwhile their infections are rocketing again... positive testing at about 30% I think, of another omicron variant.0 -
it did seem pretty obvious.Jezyboy said:
Can't help but feel that the South Africans did tell us not to worry.briantrumpet said:An interesting article on England's 'gamble' on ending restrictions while omicron was on the march... tl;dr - it was a good hunch.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2022/may/12/ending-englands-covid-restrictions-was-divisive-but-the-data-shows-we-were-right
Good of the other parts of the UK to provide a test sample.
Would be interesting to see Google and TFL activity stats to see how people in England moderated their behaviour0 -
If we'd only done this in UK airports, it would have been a completely different story.
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Is that a Stormtrooper from that Star Wars era?0
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Clearing the daft draft.
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Well it finally got me. Thought it was just bad hayfever at first and tested negative. Felt worse on Friday and yesterday, felt like a head cold or mild flu with aching muscles and joints the biggest issue together fluctuating hot and cold.
I've felt worse with colds in the past but a bit uncomfortable.0 -
Hope you feel better soon.0
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The missus started with it a week ago yesterday. Symptoms like a bad cold. I felt fine till Thursday morning when I thought I’d got a bit of hang over and DOMs from weights the day before. So I did one my 4 hour circuits on the bike and by early evening my nose was running like a tap and I was aching all over. So I thought I’d better do a test, 2 clear lines within about 10 secs. Not too bad now.0
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Do take it easy with rona.webboo said:The missus started with it a week ago yesterday. Symptoms like a bad cold. I felt fine till Thursday morning when I thought I’d got a bit of hang over and DOMs from weights the day before. So I did one my 4 hour circuits on the bike and by early evening my nose was running like a tap and I was aching all over. So I thought I’d better do a test, 2 clear lines within about 10 secs. Not too bad now.
I was fine the first week and a half and then out of nowhere I went for a little 1km pootle on the bike and a walk around and I was so wiped out I spent the next 4 days in bed, too tired to even hold my head up. Progress from there was gradual but it took roughly 6-7 weeks to return to feeling normal.0 -
Having it now makes me more convinced than ever that it was also what I had in December 2019. Vaccinations have done their job but I had to have a few naps on Friday and Saturday.0
