Disc brakes in the Pro ranks.

RichN95.

meanredspider wrote:

It's also why I think when people suggest that competitive riders take some bit of (less good) kit "for money" it also doesn't stand to reason. In a sport where a good proportion of riders have cheated in the past by doping - risking their health, careers and livelihoods to do well - they would ride worse kit, thereby threatening their chances, for a few extra quid doesn't stand any scrutiny. Winners will do anything to get a slight edge.

I agree with you, but there is one curiosity.

The world's best stage racer uses osymetric chain rings. Yet no-one else does. I'm not sure they've even tried. The only other recent person who used them had a season of a lifetime and then dropped them ('silly' he called them). Why is Froome the only one?

The only explanation comes from Malcolm Gladwell's podcast about Wilt Chamberlain which suggests that sportsmen may reject an unconventional, but better, method on the basis of image. And on that basis I think some may resist disc brakes on the basis of tradition. However, with someone of Boonen's stature embracing them that disappears somewhat.

cycleclinic

The discussion has gone round itself so manymit has eaten itself. Meanspiritrider is correct on every point by the way except on one. Good decenders will use what they kmow and trust.,if that is disc brakes then they will use disc brakes. Many dont use them to trust them so they stick with rim brakes. What you have used before and what others around you use guide you kit choices.

No_Ta_Doctor

RichN95 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

It's also why I think when people suggest that competitive riders take some bit of (less good) kit "for money" it also doesn't stand to reason. In a sport where a good proportion of riders have cheated in the past by doping - risking their health, careers and livelihoods to do well - they would ride worse kit, thereby threatening their chances, for a few extra quid doesn't stand any scrutiny. Winners will do anything to get a slight edge.

I agree with you, but there is one curiosity.

The world's best stage racer uses osymetric chain rings. Yet no-one else does. I'm not sure they've even tried. The only other recent person who used them had a season of a lifetime and then dropped them ('silly' he called them). Why is Froome the only one?

The only explanation comes from Malcolm Gladwell's podcast about Wilt Chamberlain which suggests that sportsmen may reject an unconventional, but better, method on the basis of image. And on that basis I think some may resist disc brakes on the basis of tradition. However, with someone of Boonen's stature embracing them that disappears somewhat.

I listened to that on your recommendation. I can't get my lad to take free throws underarm.

RichN95.

No tA Doctor wrote:

I listened to that on your recommendation. I can't get my lad to take free throws underarm.

Credit to IainF72 - he recommended it to me first. (The one on satire is really worth a listen)

rick_chasey

meanredspider wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Froome Dog begs to differ

Apparently he wanted a Disc bike for the (unplanned, totally spontaneous) descent of the Peyresourde

I would think the best descenders would favour no discs. If you have the balls to fly down hill that fast you do so to outrun those that haven't. You wouldn't want them feeling they can keep up cos they have better brakes. Neutralises the threat

Well, it's a theory. Ask any sportsman with a competitive atom in his body and he'll want the best kit he can get his hands on. This is a sport where they've risked their lives messing about doping themselves and you think they wouldn't want the best kit for the job???

Cos cycling's a professional sport. Fine line between winning and earning a buck.

More examples than I care to imagine of riders riding dross as requested by sponsors.

Also are many examples of riders eschewing sponsored kit for non branded better kit but that's the exception vs the norm.

Not necessarily the case for disc brakes either way but that's where the assumption comes from.

It's as simple a question of weight. If you're putting lead in your bike to make it heavy enough, why not have some improved braking in instead? However marginal or not.

smoggysteve

Rick Chasey wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Froome Dog begs to differ

Apparently he wanted a Disc bike for the (unplanned, totally spontaneous) descent of the Peyresourde

I would think the best descenders would favour no discs. If you have the balls to fly down hill that fast you do so to outrun those that haven't. You wouldn't want them feeling they can keep up cos they have better brakes. Neutralises the threat

Well, it's a theory. Ask any sportsman with a competitive atom in his body and he'll want the best kit he can get his hands on. This is a sport where they've risked their lives messing about doping themselves and you think they wouldn't want the best kit for the job???

Cos cycling's a professional sport. Fine line between winning and earning a buck.

More examples than I care to imagine of riders riding dross as requested by sponsors.

Also are many examples of riders eschewing sponsored kit for non branded better kit but that's the exception vs the norm.

Not necessarily the case for disc brakes either way but that's where the assumption comes from.

It's as simple a question of weight. If you're putting lead in your bike to make it heavy enough, why not have some improved braking in instead? However marginal or not.

Considering Peter Sagans new bike weighs over 8kg with discs on I doubt that is down to lead inserts. There are very few bikes that actually hit the 6.8kg weight limit at them moment anyway. Even going back through the last few Pro Bikes reviewed on BR they are nowhere near 6.8kg For example

Stannards Pinarello - 7.36kg
Gianluca Brambilla’s Specialized S-Works Tarmac 7.02kg
Caleb Ewan's Scott Foil - 7.35kg
Richie Porte’s BMC Teammachine SLR01 - 7.14kg

So adding discs is not going to be as easy to keep the weight as low as you imagine. A climber would still prefer to keep his bike as light as possible and as the 4 examples above show they are not getting it bang on the nose.

rick_chasey

Think this is discussed elsewhere - my 2011 £1600 bike is 7 kilos, with very average wheels.

I think the weights reported are to be taken with a pinch of salt.

RichN95.

SmoggySteve wrote:

Considering Peter Sagans new bike weighs over 8kg with discs on I doubt that is down to lead inserts. There are very few bikes that actually hit the 6.8kg weight limit at them moment anyway. Even going back through the last few Pro Bikes reviewed on BR they are nowhere near 6.8kg For example

Stannards Pinarello - 7.36kg
Gianluca Brambilla’s Specialized S-Works Tarmac 7.02kg
Caleb Ewan's Scott Foil - 7.35kg
Richie Porte’s BMC Teammachine SLR01 - 7.14kg

So adding discs is not going to be as easy to keep the weight as low as you imagine. A climber would still prefer to keep his bike as light as possible and as the 4 examples above show they are not getting it bang on the nose.

It depends when they are weighing the bikes. I read a comment from a commissaire who checks the bikes and he said on a flat stage the weights vary quite a lot, but when it comes to a mountain stage they are all bang on 6.8kg

meanredspider

What - nothing about the Dubai Tour.....?

carbonclem

meanredspider wrote:

What - nothing about the Dubai Tour.....?

Not a good advert for a disc equipped bike, only just beating a rim braked bike with a flat tyre!

meanredspider

CarbonClem wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

What - nothing about the Dubai Tour.....?

Not a good advert for a disc equipped bike, only just beating a rim braked bike with a flat tyre!

Though there were rather a lot of rim-braked bikes beaten by a rim-braked bike with a flat tyre

Shadowrider

SmoggySteve wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Froome Dog begs to differ

Apparently he wanted a Disc bike for the (unplanned, totally spontaneous) descent of the Peyresourde

I would think the best descenders would favour no discs. If you have the balls to fly down hill that fast you do so to outrun those that haven't. You wouldn't want them feeling they can keep up cos they have better brakes. Neutralises the threat

Well, it's a theory. Ask any sportsman with a competitive atom in his body and he'll want the best kit he can get his hands on. This is a sport where they've risked their lives messing about doping themselves and you think they wouldn't want the best kit for the job???

Cos cycling's a professional sport. Fine line between winning and earning a buck.

More examples than I care to imagine of riders riding dross as requested by sponsors.

Also are many examples of riders eschewing sponsored kit for non branded better kit but that's the exception vs the norm.

Not necessarily the case for disc brakes either way but that's where the assumption comes from.

It's as simple a question of weight. If you're putting lead in your bike to make it heavy enough, why not have some improved braking in instead? However marginal or not.

Considering Peter Sagans new bike weighs over 8kg with discs on I doubt that is down to lead inserts. There are very few bikes that actually hit the 6.8kg weight limit at them moment anyway. Even going back through the last few Pro Bikes reviewed on BR they are nowhere near 6.8kg For example

Stannards Pinarello - 7.36kg
Gianluca Brambilla’s Specialized S-Works Tarmac 7.02kg
Caleb Ewan's Scott Foil - 7.35kg
Richie Porte’s BMC Teammachine SLR01 - 7.14kg

So adding discs is not going to be as easy to keep the weight as low as you imagine. A climber would still prefer to keep his bike as light as possible and as the 4 examples above show they are not getting it bang on the nose.

Watch some of the GCN videos, the majority come in between 6.8 and 7Kg

Shadowrider

It's embarrassing how much the Cannondale riders are sharing their love for disk brakes. only to not race on them. Anything to shift some units. It'll be part of JV's plan to secure sponsorships, "we'll get our hipster riders to tweet none stop about what ever product you need to push."

rick_chasey

Fwiw, on weight, they had Adam Hansen's bike in procycling. Despite being a big frame, a weird mix of ultra rare components (including 180mm cranks), 2004 spec shimano chain rings (when the team ride campag) and an old fashioned saddle, they still add ballast to it.

Lanterne_Rogue

Rick Chasey wrote:

Fwiw, on weight, they had Adam Hansen's bike in procycling. Despite being a big frame, a weird mix of ultra rare components (including 180mm cranks), 2004 spec shimano chain rings (when the team ride campag) and an old fashioned saddle, they still add ballast to it.

To be fair, it's probably some weird hipster ballast that was designed to balance out the drum for the best-selling washing machine in the 1980s or something. Using Adam Hansen's bike to prove anything is fraught with danger...

meanredspider

Rick Chasey wrote:

, 2004 spec shimano chain rings (when the team ride campag) and an old fashioned saddle,

Which kinda gives the lie to the idea that the riders ride what they're told to.

This is so often quoted when riders are on bikes with kit on it that doesn't match the poster's view of the kit ("They only ride Di2 because they're told to"). Despite hearing this more and more often (after Di2 it's now disc brakes) I can't say I've seen much (any? I'm sure someone will find it) evidence of it. I also can't think of many other hardcore professional sportsmen that will compromise their chance of winning because of sponsor's kit. Take F1 - the drivers will happily criticise even their own teams tech if they believe it isn't helping their chances. Even within cycling there's the (possibly apocryphal) story of teams using the Gabba jersey with Castelli inked out.

Now people are regularly winning with Di2 and now with discs, it's clear that neither is much of a handicap.

bobmcstuff

meanredspider wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

, 2004 spec shimano chain rings (when the team ride campag) and an old fashioned saddle,

Which kinda gives the lie to the idea that the riders ride what they're told to.

This is so often quoted when riders are on bikes with kit on it that doesn't match the poster's view of the kit ("They only ride Di2 because they're told to"). Despite hearing this more and more often (after Di2 it's now disc brakes) I can't say I've seen much (any? I'm sure someone will find it) evidence of it. I also can't think of many other hardcore professional sportsmen that will compromise their chance of winning because of sponsor's kit. Take F1 - the drivers will happily criticise even their own teams tech if they believe it isn't helping their chances. Even within cycling there's the (possibly apocryphal) story of teams using the Gabba jersey with Castelli inked out.

Now people are regularly winning with Di2 and now with discs, it's clear that neither is much of a handicap.

To be fair, what difference are discs going to make in a sprint...

rick_chasey

underlayunderlay wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Fwiw, on weight, they had Adam Hansen's bike in procycling. Despite being a big frame, a weird mix of ultra rare components (including 180mm cranks), 2004 spec shimano chain rings (when the team ride campag) and an old fashioned saddle, they still add ballast to it.

To be fair, it's probably some weird hipster ballast that was designed to balance out the drum for the best-selling washing machine in the 1980s or something. Using Adam Hansen's bike to prove anything is fraught with danger...

It's more than even with some old spec and a big frame it's easy to get under the weight limit.

I still maintain that if they dropped the weight limit by 2-3 kilos you'd see disc brakes on only the flattest of stages for the biggest of riders - at best.

Lanterne_Rogue

Rick Chasey wrote:

underlayunderlay wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Fwiw, on weight, they had Adam Hansen's bike in procycling. Despite being a big frame, a weird mix of ultra rare components (including 180mm cranks), 2004 spec shimano chain rings (when the team ride campag) and an old fashioned saddle, they still add ballast to it.

To be fair, it's probably some weird hipster ballast that was designed to balance out the drum for the best-selling washing machine in the 1980s or something. Using Adam Hansen's bike to prove anything is fraught with danger...

It's more than even with some old spec and a big frame it's easy to get under the weight limit.

I still maintain that if they dropped the weight limit by 2-3 kilos you'd see disc brakes on only the flattest of stages for the biggest of riders - at best.

I got the point, but Hansen's dedication to finding exactly the right components is unusual. If you told me he'd tried to machine his own seatpost out of a Menger sponge so that it was infinitely light I'd probably give it credence. Discovering that he appreciated more weight going uphill, for some Hansen-related reason, really wouldn't surprise me either.

The second point - that they wouldn't use it if the weight limit were seriously dropped - is more interesting. The current regulations essentially prevent us finding out what the best kit for cycling actually is, let alone whether that translates to the ordinary rider in a club run or on the daily commute.

meanredspider

bobmcstuff wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

, 2004 spec shimano chain rings (when the team ride campag) and an old fashioned saddle,

Which kinda gives the lie to the idea that the riders ride what they're told to.

This is so often quoted when riders are on bikes with kit on it that doesn't match the poster's view of the kit ("They only ride Di2 because they're told to"). Despite hearing this more and more often (after Di2 it's now disc brakes) I can't say I've seen much (any? I'm sure someone will find it) evidence of it. I also can't think of many other hardcore professional sportsmen that will compromise their chance of winning because of sponsor's kit. Take F1 - the drivers will happily criticise even their own teams tech if they believe it isn't helping their chances. Even within cycling there's the (possibly apocryphal) story of teams using the Gabba jersey with Castelli inked out.

Now people are regularly winning with Di2 and now with discs, it's clear that neither is much of a handicap.

To be fair, what difference are discs going to make in a sprint...

The point is: none. So why not use them?

rick_chasey

Oh ffs it was mildly interesting because he wasn't typical and I just noted he uses ballast.

yorkshireraw

Rick Chasey wrote:

Oh ffs it was mildly interesting because he wasn't typical and I just noted he uses ballast.

Agree Rick it surprised me as well. The amusing quote ref his 180mm cranks was "his Mechanic doesn't know where he got them from".

gsk82

YorkshireRaw wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Oh ffs it was mildly interesting because he wasn't typical and I just noted he uses ballast.

Agree Rick it surprised me as well. The amusing quote ref his 180mm cranks was "his Mechanic doesn't know where he got them from".

I hope there's a select committee to look in to this.

yorkshireraw

gsk82 wrote:

YorkshireRaw wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

Oh ffs it was mildly interesting because he wasn't typical and I just noted he uses ballast.

Agree Rick it surprised me as well. The amusing quote ref his 180mm cranks was "his Mechanic doesn't know where he got them from".

I hope there's a select committee to look in to this.

Brilliant. If Cope admits the jiffy contents were some non-standard cranks and a DI2 battery it'll be a crack up.

Vino'sGhost

This is my last year riding crits, my very expensive rim break bike that has more than enough breaking capacity wet or dry will still be good when others are upgrading because of rule changes.

The only good thing i can think of for disk brakes is that Ill have to buy a break bleed kit and add to my tool kit.

timoid.

Riders not happy with a mix of disc and rim brakes in the peloton:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/riders- ... l-is-held/

graeme_s-2

Cyclingnews wrote:

Chief among its concerns is the danger posed by having different braking systems – and therefore different braking times – in the same peloton.

This is such a load of nonsense. I think the riders have a valid gripe that they're not necessarily considered and consulted properly when changes are made that affect them, but their particular complaint here is total BS. Riders are going to have different braking times based on their reactions, weight, skill, pads, rim material, tyre compound, tyre width, road surface they happen to be on when they apply the brakes etc. anyway. You aren't ever going to have 200 riders applying the brakes able to simultaneously come to a stop.

carbonclem

Vino'sGhost wrote:

The only good thing i can think of for disk brakes is that Ill have to buy a break bleed kit and add to my tool kit.

I had a decent (Hope) hydro disc brake fitted to the front of my mountain bike circa 2000 - I've yet to bleed the system!

No_Ta_Doctor

CarbonClem wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

The only good thing i can think of for disk brakes is that Ill have to buy a break bleed kit and add to my tool kit.

I had a decent (Hope) hydro disc brake fitted to the front of my mountain bike circa 2000 - I've yet to bleed the system!

Haven't bled my discs on my town bike in the five or six years I've owned it.

Shadowrider

Anyone seen the photo's of Doull after crashing today?

Shoe sliced open after contact with Disc brake, believe it was maybe Kittel's