Disc brakes in the Pro ranks.

Ashbeck
Ashbeck Posts: 235
edited July 2018 in Pro race
Might have been posted before, but I'm catching up after being away. Just read that a few teams were allowed to test during August and September period.

Judging from rider reaction it doesn't seem like they are too fussed at the moment. Boonen said he's not bothered and its more about the tyre grip than the braking performance. He also made an even better point, imo, that it would drive the riders nuts when & if dirt got in between the pads and all they could hear was that annoying screech and scraping noise for 5 hrs!

Tend to agree with him on the last point.

What do others think?
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Comments

  • Yellow Peril
    Yellow Peril Posts: 4,466
    Gilbert was fairly scathing saying hot discs in a pile up would be dangerous.

    For the life of me I can't see how you can change a wheel fast enough in the event of a puncture. I also think, purely for the sake of neutral service that they'll need to commit wholesale one way or the other.
    @JaunePeril

    Winner of the Bike Radar Pro Race Wiggins Hour Prediction Competition
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,570
    I suppose the question is what problem are they trying to solve
  • Gilbert was fairly scathing saying hot discs in a pile up would be dangerous.

    For the life of me I can't see how you can change a wheel fast enough in the event of a puncture. I also think, purely for the sake of neutral service that they'll need to commit wholesale one way or the other.


    The teams trialling disc brakes at Eneco fell back on entire bike changes...which surely cant be practical for anything other than single-stage trials for individual riders...
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,388
    Gilbert longs for the days when he was good...

    I suspect that for the Pro's the benefits are less pronounced but for you and me it is ridiculous that it's tking os long for them to become established. However because your average roadie models him/herself on their favorite pro rider means that the demand - and therefore the R&D needed to make a proper road disk sets - for a far superior braking system has been significantly muted. By showing images of Pros riding disks, this barrier will be removed and we l start getting some really good kit.

    This is probably the only example where I'm fully supporting manufacturers forcing their riders to ride new kit.

    You know that horrible feeling you get when it rains and your brakes just stop working? Mountain bikers solved that problem 15 years ago...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver

  • You know that horrible feeling you get when it rains and your brakes just stop working?

    er... no? I have noticed worse performance, but if you plan in advance and scrub the water off the rims 1st then you're fine.

    I read the Mavic guy at Eneco saying that he needs over 20 wheels in each car just to cover all the possible combinations of axle, groupset and disc. Until there's a standard, I can't see it taking hold in professional racing. And a standard sort of kills the market for consumers for the reasons you describe above.

    Anyway, this is going to get too contentious. Let's fall back on something safer like campag vs. shimano or helmets.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,570

    By showing images of Pros riding disks, this barrier will be removed and we l start getting some really good kit.

    This is probably the only example where I'm fully supporting manufacturers forcing their riders to ride new kit.

    This is where the consumer just puzzles me. It's like when the standard road bike came with 53x12 gearing.

    You know that horrible feeling you get when it rains and your brakes just stop working? Mountain bikers solved that problem 15 years ago...

    No. My road bike brakes always work. I thought the logic behind disc brakes was they allowed more marginal braking, so that on a mountain bike when there is less grip, you were less likely to lock up the wheels. I think that is part of the skill / fun of mountain biking - the greatest evolution I would like is brakes that don't get clogged up with mud.

    Still, as I have almost no interest in bike kit. It's probably best to ignore my opinions.
  • imatfaal
    imatfaal Posts: 2,716
    For those - like me - who ride a lot but are fairly unskilled and are on rims that could be cleaner/blocks that could be newer then disc brakes are much much easier to control/modulate especially in the rain.

    For pro/good cyclists the difference is zero/minimal - they have the skill to feel the bite point, to always clean the rims with a squeeze of the brakes if it is wet, too lock up but stay upright etc . And discs are heavier (although if mass of wheel is same you really want it at the hub rather than the rim), can get too hot, might make interchange worse etc

    But the purchasing power of the beginner cyclist is vast - so manufacturers want the pro-team imprimatur on the sort of goods that they sell huge amounts of , as well as the higher level kit. Also development works are a lot easier if you have a squad of the best cyclists in the world giving you constant feedback.

    I would prefer it if these sorts of decision didn't have to come into sport - but they do. Although seems for saddles even the power of a sponsor is not enough - I think it was Nibali riding with a no name saddle in the tour cos he couldn't learn to love his sponsor's offerings (blacked out antares vs instead of specialised)

  • You know what I mean "it's raining, there's a sharp corner coming up, perhaps I'll brake a little earlier and a little lighter to avoid sliding out when I turn.
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123

    I think they make sense for a foul weather commuter where you're occasionally having to brake at little or no notice because someone's done something you couldn't have anticipated, eg the lemming-like pedestrian who steps into the road without looking because he / she can't hear any traffic.

    For professional road racing they might make things a bit easier when descending an alp in a blizzard, but for the most part they'll just make wheel changes a bit trickier.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,388
    edited August 2015
    Doub
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,388

    By showing images of Pros riding disks, this barrier will be removed and we l start getting some really good kit.

    This is probably the only example where I'm fully supporting manufacturers forcing their riders to ride new kit.

    This is where the consumer just puzzles me. It's like when the standard road bike came with 53x12 gearing.

    You know that horrible feeling you get when it rains and your brakes just stop working? Mountain bikers solved that problem 15 years ago...

    No. My road bike brakes always work. I thought the logic behind disc brakes was they allowed more marginal braking, so that on a mountain bike when there is less grip, you were less likely to lock up the wheels. I think that is part of the skill / fun of mountain biking - the greatest evolution I would like is brakes that don't get clogged up with mud.

    Still, as I have almost no interest in bike kit. It's probably best to ignore my opinions.

    Never Bean!

    I think you re 100% correct on the gearing too! The braking is no different - with respect, cork blocks made from wine corks "work" too. Its rubbish in the rain, it wears, what can be quite expensive, rims out (especially in the winter : :shock: ). Cables rust/degrade can break (thought that's never happened to me so...meh) etc

    For 99% of us (I'm thinking the 1% is Pross, NapD and Colin btw) Disks are just better, so so so much better
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    I don't like the look of them but am in continued amazement how rubbish my brakes are. If I knew I had brakes with significantly better stopping power then I would not be the rider who is dropped on the descents and has to dance up the hills the catch up.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,570
    As someone whose body is not kind to wheels, I find it very satisfying if a wheel ever lasts long enough to fail due to brake use on the rims. If I ever built such a wheel myself, I think I would tell everyone.
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,570
    I don't like the look of them but am in continued amazement how rubbish my brakes are. If I knew I had brakes with significantly better stopping power then I would not be the rider who is dropped on the descents and has to dance up the hills the catch up.

    I didn't have you down as a closet Schleck
  • r0bh
    r0bh Posts: 2,193
    I can't see the point of disk brakes on a road bike, dual pivot calipers are powerful enough to lock up your wheels even in the wet, there is plenty enough modulation and brake pads last thousands of miles. Even full carbon rims aren't much of a problem (although it was a slight PITA changing the brake pads between my set for metal rims and my set for carbon rims) For pro races it seems very much a solution in search of a problem, pushed on the riders by the bike companies.

    On my commute bike, however, they make perfect sense as it means the gritty canal tow-paths I ride along don't cause my rims to grind away through the winter (this bike also has an Alfine hub gear for similar reasons!)
  • above_the_cows
    above_the_cows Posts: 11,406
    I would really have appreciated disc brakes a few weeks ago on an Alpine descent where I hit the "we're just resurfacing the road with loose gravel" works and as a result we've just placed a traffic light around this blind bend on a gradient of 11% and it's on red. Crumbs Penfold! :shock: I haven't had to brake with my foot since I was about 5.
    Correlation is not causation.
  • I don't like the look of them but am in continued amazement how rubbish my brakes are. If I knew I had brakes with significantly better stopping power then I would not be the rider who is dropped on the descents and has to dance up the hills the catch up.

    You have the opposite problem to what you think you do. You are using too much stopping power. Brake less and learn to descend better. I learned this lesson too late in my cycling life
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • Ashbeck
    Ashbeck Posts: 235
    Some interesting thoughts. Does anyone think that once the manufacturers agree on a set standard and its introduced into the Pro ranks that it will be the death of the calliper?

    I mean once disc brakes become the norm will anyone/any teams, go back to using callipers? much in the same way that once the gear lever shifted from the frame to the brake lever that was it.
  • inseine
    inseine Posts: 5,786
    I don't like the look of them but am in continued amazement how rubbish my brakes are. If I knew I had brakes with significantly better stopping power then I would not be the rider who is dropped on the descents and has to dance up the hills the catch up.

    You have the opposite problem to what you think you do. You are using too much stopping power. Brake less and learn to descend better. I learned this lesson too late in my cycling life

    I think poor brakes a rarely the cause of poor descending. I'm also not aware of any really rubbish modern brakes (reasonably high end stuff).
  • Daz555
    Daz555 Posts: 3,976
    Disks are better at braking in ALL conditions. This is surely as pure a fact as anyone could need.

    There are some challenges of course for the pro-peloton like standards required for neutral service and speed of wheel changes but we should not be kidding ourselves - whether this year or next, or in 3 years, rim brakes at the top end are going the way of the dodo and rightly so.
    You only need two tools: WD40 and Duck Tape.
    If it doesn't move and should, use the WD40.
    If it shouldn't move and does, use the tape.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,388
    Some interesting thoughts. Does anyone think that once the manufacturers agree on a set standard and its introduced into the Pro ranks that it will be the death of the calliper?

    I mean once disc brakes become the norm will anyone/any teams, go back to using callipers? much in the same way that once the gear lever shifted from the frame to the brake lever that was it.

    I suspect that disks won't ever really transfer onto TT bikes or the like so I suspect that there will always be a market for calipers. However I suspect that if they really take hold on road bikes then more budget rims and calipers may start to dissappear. Having said that you can still get V-brakes and rims for MTBs and (virtually) no one sells a new bike with rim brakes on now.
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • inseine
    inseine Posts: 5,786
    Disks are better at braking in ALL conditions. This is surely as pure a fact as anyone could need.

    There are some challenges of course for the pro-peloton like standards required for neutral service and speed of wheel changes but we should not be kidding ourselves - whether this year or next, or in 3 years, rim brakes at the top end are going the way of the dodo and rightly so.

    Better stopping and modulation, but do they make fro a better bike and riding experience?
    Heavier bikes, more trouble to maintain, less aero, more expensive.
    I agree they'll probably take over but not totally convinced thay are real world 'better'.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Disks are better at braking in ALL conditions. This is surely as pure a fact as anyone could need.

    There are some challenges of course for the pro-peloton like standards required for neutral service and speed of wheel changes but we should not be kidding ourselves - whether this year or next, or in 3 years, rim brakes at the top end are going the way of the dodo and rightly so.

    Better stopping and modulation, but do they make fro a better bike and riding experience?
    Heavier bikes, more trouble to maintain, less aero, more expensive.
    I agree they'll probably take over but not totally convinced thay are real world 'better'.
    If they do start to catch on, then presumably we can expect more development in road-specific discs - which might tackle some of those issues. Personally I have my doubts whether they could ever be - for example - more aero and lighter, but perhaps they aren't because no-one has really tried yet.
  • imatfaal
    imatfaal Posts: 2,716
    Disks are better at braking in ALL conditions. This is surely as pure a fact as anyone could need.

    There are some challenges of course for the pro-peloton like standards required for neutral service and speed of wheel changes but we should not be kidding ourselves - whether this year or next, or in 3 years, rim brakes at the top end are going the way of the dodo and rightly so.

    Better stopping and modulation, but do they make fro a better bike and riding experience?
    Heavier bikes, more trouble to maintain, less aero, more expensive.
    I agree they'll probably take over but not totally convinced thay are real world 'better'.

    heavier - although maybe at better places; wheels with less rim weight and more hub, mechs tend to be about only 400 mm off the ground.
    more trouble to maintain - not really; rim wear, clean rims, replacement blocks, wire breakage/getting mucky
    less aero - yes; but we have been engineering road bike rim brakes for decades, give them some time and they will catch up. specialized have a youtube video confirming that with an angled wind the disc set up is worse - but not much
    more expensive - for the kit yes - for ongoing total cost of ownership maybe not; new rims are very expensive compared to new pads
  • andrewjoseph
    andrewjoseph Posts: 2,165
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  • NeXXus
    NeXXus Posts: 854
    Disks are better at braking in ALL conditions. This is surely as pure a fact as anyone could need.

    There are some challenges of course for the pro-peloton like standards required for neutral service and speed of wheel changes but we should not be kidding ourselves - whether this year or next, or in 3 years, rim brakes at the top end are going the way of the dodo and rightly so.

    Better stopping and modulation, but do they make fro a better bike and riding experience?
    Heavier bikes, more trouble to maintain, less aero, more expensive.
    I agree they'll probably take over but not totally convinced thay are real world 'better'.
    Heavier bikes how? why? Most pro teams are adding weight back onto their builds in order to meet the weight limit..
    And the people bowed and prayed, to the neon god they made.
  • inseine
    inseine Posts: 5,786
    Disks are better at braking in ALL conditions. This is surely as pure a fact as anyone could need.

    There are some challenges of course for the pro-peloton like standards required for neutral service and speed of wheel changes but we should not be kidding ourselves - whether this year or next, or in 3 years, rim brakes at the top end are going the way of the dodo and rightly so.

    Better stopping and modulation, but do they make fro a better bike and riding experience?
    Heavier bikes, more trouble to maintain, less aero, more expensive.
    I agree they'll probably take over but not totally convinced thay are real world 'better'.
    Heavier bikes how? why? Most pro teams are adding weight back onto their builds in order to meet the weight limit..
    I meant generally, not just pro, and anyway there's been talk of reducing the limit in the near future.
    The brakes are heavier but the frame and forks need to be beefed up too.
    My main concern would be hydraulics. Too complicated for me!
  • adamfo
    adamfo Posts: 763

    For an average rider like myself discs give more confidence and shorter stopping distances in the wet. The only potential downside is the hassle when seals harden and leak with age (on the superior hydraulic versions) and occasional squealing. Having said that,the Shimano XT brakes on my mountain bike have turned out to be indestructible.
    26" mountain bike wheels disappeared within a 2 year time frame and I expect rim brakes will too on consumer range bikes.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,388
    My main concern would be hydraulics. Too complicated for me!

    A) to be honest you hardly ever have to and B)They re really not hard any more - if a muppet like me can do it, anyone can
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver