Disc brakes in the Pro ranks.

meanredspider

SmoggySteve wrote:

Be it disc brakes, weight, geometry or some other new idea. There has to be a cut off point where it become more about the riders ability over the technology. If only a handful of teams had discs then thats dangerous when you take into consideration the concertina effect of someone braking hard as it passes down the peloton. Somone in the middle is going to get smacked up the backside by someone with brakes that are not as good. Everyone has to have them for it to be ok. The issue of them being better in the wet or downhill is still dumbing down the skill of the riders. Im sure some argumentative twunt will blah on about going back to down tube shifters on steel frames with leather straps instead of cleats but there is no major dumbing down of the riders ability in sny of the modern advances in these technologies.

I see people getting turned off by F1 cos its less about the drivers and more about the car. Its boring and predictable. Cycling really doesn't need anything which makes racing even more stale and predictable right now.

F1 is at least leading road technology rather than following it. They'll keep tinkering with it to balance the tech with the driver.

You're right that cycling should be about the riders but the tech should be relevant to what the rest of us are riding.

meanredspider

SmoggySteve wrote:

Point I was making was just because its 'new' tech doesnt mean it should be used. You don't want to see something which aides a rider uphill but its fine to help him downhill. Descending is a skill just as much as climbing. Otherwise its the same riders winning again and again zzzzzzz

And my point is that it should be relevant tech. Electronic shifting, 11-speed, wider tyres, and disc brakes - they're all things that loads of people on here have. I doubt there's 0.01% on here that has a hidden electric motor...

smoggysteve

meanredspider wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

Be it disc brakes, weight, geometry or some other new idea. There has to be a cut off point where it become more about the riders ability over the technology. If only a handful of teams had discs then thats dangerous when you take into consideration the concertina effect of someone braking hard as it passes down the peloton. Somone in the middle is going to get smacked up the backside by someone with brakes that are not as good. Everyone has to have them for it to be ok. The issue of them being better in the wet or downhill is still dumbing down the skill of the riders. Im sure some argumentative twunt will blah on about going back to down tube shifters on steel frames with leather straps instead of cleats but there is no major dumbing down of the riders ability in sny of the modern advances in these technologies.

I see people getting turned off by F1 cos its less about the drivers and more about the car. Its boring and predictable. Cycling really doesn't need anything which makes racing even more stale and predictable right now.

F1 is at least leading road technology rather than following it. They'll keep tinkering with it to balance the tech with the driver.

You're right that cycling should be about the riders but the tech should be relevant to what the rest of us are riding.

I would bet on the balance of it. There are still more rim braked bikes sold than disc brakes. Its not like no one buys rim brake bikes anymore.

bobmcstuff

apreading wrote:

underlayunderlay wrote:

Given the number of bikes that now offered with discs despite the pros not using them, there's fairly good evidence that purchasing decisions aren't particularly driven by what's being seen in the pro peloton. I'd also guess that only a small proportion of bikes sold are the same models as the ones nominally ridden by the pros, although I can imagine the choice of brand might be influenced.

But of those choosing not to switch to discs, many cite the lack of use by the pros as justification for that decision. Once the pros use them and more importantly start winning on them then that justification will become harder.

Which is itself a daft argument - "if it's good enough for the pros it's good enough for me!"

gaffer_slow

i think their argument is more "the pro's dont need better braking then neither do I!"

No_Ta_Doctor

There's some serious tosh being talked on here now. The best argument I've heard so far against disc brakes is Rick's "I don't like them, they look rubbish". I disagree with him, but it's an honest opinion and not based on comparing them to electric motors or claiming that the art of not riding off the edge of a mountain while descending will die.

onyourright

Gweeds wrote:

Any wet race, flat or otherwise, sees an immediate ad advantage for discs.

Freudian slip?

Lanterne_Rogue

My experience of disc brakes is only through running a terrible set of mechanical discs on the gravel bike I commute on (I bought a cheaper model as I had a better groupset kicking around to upgrade with, but never got round to upgrading the callipers). The one thing I notice is that despite the bike being covered in crap, and the brakes being truly dire (unless I've adjusted them within the last day or two, I can't lock a wheel up), I've still never had that moment where you've got the brakes on as hard as you can and nothing at all is happening - something I regularly had when using rim brakes.

Based on that experience, I wouldn't be surprised if disc brakes didn't hand an even bigger advantage to the best descenders purely because they know that they will always be able to brake hard just before the bend. Judging line and tyre grip will still be key, and that's something that discs won't change - and trying to scrub speed off once you're in the corner will still be a fool's game.

greasedscotsman

I think you can see from cross, disc brakes will make little difference to road cycling.

rick_chasey

I am absolutely one of those people who wants to look like a pro.

I've developed a physique that allows a near enough approximation without being ill, and one of the main reasons I work on my position on the bike (and therefore, the stretching etc) is so I can have as close a position on the bike as they do. I have a proper flat back on my commuter, and I'm working on being able to translate that for rides over an hour on my proper bike.

Now, I hate bike fettling, and I'm terrible at it. I clean my bike after every ride for the sole reason I have to keep it in the flat, and the only thing I hate more than bike fettling is a dirty flat.

But I really really hate it, and I think English bike mechanics are f*cking sh!t. I've tried so many different mechanics through recommendations, and each one are rubbish.

Now, because I am susceptible to the whole pro thing, i will one day probably want disc brakes if they're all riding them. Which means I will need to buy a new bike to fit them, and new wheels. And then I'm stuck with maintaining the f*cking things, which I imagine is more of a ballache than rim brakes. And then I'll have to deal with the sh!t mechanics more often.

And all of that, for the point, as Dish Dash will testify, that I can stop faster than basically anyone because I'm 55kilos, so I've never had an issue with braking. So far *touch wood* I have never crashed whilst braking, and I've never had my brakes not be able to lock up my wheels. I don't have any fear about braking late or hard, and I descend faster than almost everyone on the club run.

So I don't think I really need them, but I will want them, and that's a ballache.

Furthermore, I'm still convinced by my theory that they're only being put on pro bikes because it's an easier way to show off their lighter frames & have room left over to advertise more expensive things to chumps like me. Ergo, drop the weight limit further by a couple of kilos and those disc brakes will disappear in a jiffy. And, tbh, I would benefit much more from that than I would disc brakes. But then, if I go down that road and the pros have discs, I'm not gonna look the part, and I'm as much about vanity as speed.

So that's why I don't want my hero, Boonen, to ride them. Comprende?

gweeds

I'm 86kg and 6'1". I need all the stopping help I can get. But I take your points.

fat daddy

Rick Chasey wrote:

I imagine is more of a ballache than rim brakes.?

not on modern disc brakes ...... my older sets I need to bleed from time to time, which is truly a ball ache of all proportion and I never get it right... the more modern units I haven't touched them in 5 years other than change the pads which takes about 2 minutes

I really should upgrade my older disc brakes

meanredspider

@Rick C. That's beautifully put. I have total respect for your view of disc brakes

meanredspider

fat daddy wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

I imagine is more of a ballache than rim brakes.?

not on modern disc brakes ...... my older sets I need to bleed from time to time, which is truly a ball ache of all proportion and I never get it right... the more modern units I haven't touched them in 5 years other than change the pads which takes about 2 minutes

I really should upgrade my older disc brakes

Yes - proper hydraulic discs ought to be low maintenance. If you're light weight, you'll have a couple of advantages:
1. You won't need to brake as hard so pad wear will be low
2. You could run harder-wearing pads (that have lower wear)
That would minimise any maintenance.

If set up properly, just swapping out pads ought to be enough for maintenance and no realignment.

ridgerider

I love the mechanical movement of derailleurs and I have come to love the similar beauty of a perfectly set up set of caliper brakes.

fat daddy

Perhaps disc brakes will ruin the racing .... after all remember how before 1990 riders were using shifter on the down tubes ... there was no changing gear mid corner or in sprints ... and it was all about the rider.

then Shimano came up with the integraded shifter in the hoods .... suddenly any rider could change gear mid sprint .... it totally ruined racing :?

m.r.m.

I don't think the argument that disk brakes are added as a means to add weight holds any water. Pro bikes are seldom 6.8 kg and tend to only be close with super shallow wheels (as seen in various GCN videos). I think pro teams would add aero before disks if it were just about adding weight that gives you a benefit at the same time.

If it is universally accepted that they brake better, they have a place in racing just the same as better brakes are a goal in every other form of racing. Better brakes let you brake later and thus carry a higher speed for longer. That makes you faster and that is the main point in the end.

That is why they keep turning up. Weight and safety concerns etc. are ensuing problems that require solving, but won't prevent them from advancing and implementing the technology.

Lowering the weight limit to 5 kg will pause the usage until weight can be reduced in all areas and they can be used again.

rick_chasey

M.R.M. wrote:

I don't think the argument that disk brakes are added as a means to add weight holds any water.
<<snip>>
Lowering the weight limit to 5 kg will pause the usage until weight can be reduced in all areas and they can be used again.

Which is it?

m.r.m.

Is that all you took from it?

Obviously the decision to use disks isn't taken in a vacuum. They brake better in bad conditions, so it's worth using them there. They come with a weight penalty, so if the usefulness outweighs the penalty they get used.

Presently the pro bikes get close enough to 6.8 kg while still balancing stiffness and aero needs etc. to warrant thinking about them (but no one seems particularly euphoric about them). If the limit gets dropped to 5 kg the advantage of braking better is outweighed by the factors that are higher on the list of priorities (by no means the same for every team or every rider), hence they will not get used outside of flat races in terrible conditions. Presently the better braking may be worth having a bike 800g heavier (7.6 kg). If it is 2.6 kg heavier (above hypothetical 5 kg limit) the penalty would not outweigh the braking benefit in most cases.

kingstonian

Rick Chasey wrote:

I am absolutely one of those people who wants to look like a pro.

I've developed a physique that allows a near enough approximation without being ill, and one of the main reasons I work on my position on the bike (and therefore, the stretching etc) is so I can have as close a position on the bike as they do. I have a proper flat back on my commuter, and I'm working on being able to translate that for rides over an hour on my proper bike.

Now, I hate bike fettling, and I'm terrible at it. I clean my bike after every ride for the sole reason I have to keep it in the flat, and the only thing I hate more than bike fettling is a dirty flat.

But I really really hate it, and I think English bike mechanics are f*cking sh!t. I've tried so many different mechanics through recommendations, and each one are rubbish.

Now, because I am susceptible to the whole pro thing, i will one day probably want disc brakes if they're all riding them. Which means I will need to buy a new bike to fit them, and new wheels. And then I'm stuck with maintaining the f*cking things, which I imagine is more of a ballache than rim brakes. And then I'll have to deal with the sh!t mechanics more often.

And all of that, for the point, as Dish Dash will testify, that I can stop faster than basically anyone because I'm 55kilos, so I've never had an issue with braking. So far *touch wood* I have never crashed whilst braking, and I've never had my brakes not be able to lock up my wheels. I don't have any fear about braking late or hard, and I descend faster than almost everyone on the club run.

So I don't think I really need them, but I will want them, and that's a ballache.

Furthermore, I'm still convinced by my theory that they're only being put on pro bikes because it's an easier way to show off their lighter frames & have room left over to advertise more expensive things to chumps like me. Ergo, drop the weight limit further by a couple of kilos and those disc brakes will disappear in a jiffy. And, tbh, I would benefit much more from that than I would disc brakes. But then, if I go down that road and the pros have discs, I'm not gonna look the part, and I'm as much about vanity as speed.

So that's why I don't want my hero, Boonen, to ride them. Comprende?

Good post. Maybe you should carry a rucksack with 25kg or so, go out for a ride in the rain and then bomb down a few hills to see what we experience when trying to stop !!!

Just one point re maintenance. I have Shimano hydraulic disk brakes on my road bike, have not had a single problem in 8000km so haven't needed to go anywhere near a mechanic !!!! They seem to be pretty bulletproof.

ridgerider

I've got one word to add to all this...tubular tyres!

Endemic in the pro ranks. They roll faster, behave better in a puncture situation...ignored by weekend warriors.

gweeds

Most of whom don't have a support vehicle following.

DeVlaeminck

They don't roll faster anyway.

paul2718

British cycling regulation wrote:

3.2.5 Cycles used for road or circuit racing shall be fitted with a freewheel and two independent brakes in good working order, with their brake levers securely fastened to the handlebars. The use of disc brakes is forbidden in mass start events.

So if you race, want to race, think you might want to race, want to kid yourself you might race, want people to see you on your nice bike and not know you're not a racer, then discs are out for now. Whatever the Pros get to use in WT events.

Paul

bobmcstuff

paul2718 wrote:

British cycling regulation wrote:

3.2.5 Cycles used for road or circuit racing shall be fitted with a freewheel and two independent brakes in good working order, with their brake levers securely fastened to the handlebars. The use of disc brakes is forbidden in mass start events.

So if you race, want to race, think you might want to race, want to kid yourself you might race, want people to see you on your nice bike and not know you're not a racer, then discs are out for now. Whatever the Pros get to use in WT events.

Paul

That's clearly not going to last though is it.

gaffer_slow

i don't think it's my disc brakes that make people think i am likely not a racer.

DeVlaeminck

bobmcstuff wrote:

paul2718 wrote:

British cycling regulation wrote:

3.2.5 Cycles used for road or circuit racing shall be fitted with a freewheel and two independent brakes in good working order, with their brake levers securely fastened to the handlebars. The use of disc brakes is forbidden in mass start events.

So if you race, want to race, think you might want to race, want to kid yourself you might race, want people to see you on your nice bike and not know you're not a racer, then discs are out for now. Whatever the Pros get to use in WT events.

Paul

That's clearly not going to last though is it.

Probably not but if you are racing next year and buying now could you take the risk ?

bobmcstuff

DeVlaeminck wrote:

bobmcstuff wrote:

paul2718 wrote:

British cycling regulation wrote:

3.2.5 Cycles used for road or circuit racing shall be fitted with a freewheel and two independent brakes in good working order, with their brake levers securely fastened to the handlebars. The use of disc brakes is forbidden in mass start events.

So if you race, want to race, think you might want to race, want to kid yourself you might race, want people to see you on your nice bike and not know you're not a racer, then discs are out for now. Whatever the Pros get to use in WT events.

Paul

That's clearly not going to last though is it.

Probably not but if you are racing next year and buying now could you take the risk ?

Probably not. I think I'm going to get an Allez Sprint in the spring.

ocdupalais

I don't buy this stuff about disk brakes being a liability on account of the predicted different braking rates on the road.
What circumstances are we talking about?
On the flat, into corners on a tight circuit/crits (in a bunch): you'll have excellent modulation/sensitivity, so if you brake excessively, you're a d!ck. As anyone who's raced crits/chain gangs will attest, erratic braking/shite bike handling happens anyway and the culprits get told/crash/cause crashes then get told...
On the flat, into corners on a tight circuit/crits and (small group): same thing.
In the hills/mountains- hairpins (bunch): do you need to push the pace on the front? No? Then roll down with everyone else without the need to show off how late you can brake. If you do want to push the pace, then you'll be at or near the front and if anyone has issues with this, that's their problem and they're behind you.
In the hills/mountains- hairpins (small group): same thing.

paul2718

bobmcstuff wrote:

paul2718 wrote:

British cycling regulation wrote:

3.2.5 Cycles used for road or circuit racing shall be fitted with a freewheel and two independent brakes in good working order, with their brake levers securely fastened to the handlebars. The use of disc brakes is forbidden in mass start events.

So if you race, want to race, think you might want to race, want to kid yourself you might race, want people to see you on your nice bike and not know you're not a racer, then discs are out for now. Whatever the Pros get to use in WT events.

Paul

That's clearly not going to last though is it.

At least one more year.

I don't see any advantage to discs for race usage in most circumstances, and they're otherwise a minor disadvantage, but if you're buying a winter bike then it's a no-brainer.

Paul