Disc brakes in the Pro ranks.

dish_dash

Surely rib brakes have a whole variety of braking capabilities too... it's not like everyone is on the same type of brake, rim, or block...

graeme_s-2

Tyres could potentially make a huge difference to braking distances too - especially different widths of tyre. Nobody's suggesting the riders should be on a spec tyre

rick_chasey

SmoggySteve wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

That argument is rubbish.

Reminds me of the arguments motorists used to have when cars started moving from drum brakes to disc brakes.

How is it rubbish if you risk people colliding cos one is braking differently to another? Racing needs to be safe and if you say disc brakes offer superior braking you are saying as well rims are inferior. Is there not a danger of it causing an issue in races with lots of sharp corners and heavy braking?

Not sure you get the physics behind braking.

My braking distance as a 55kilo rider is a lot lot less than that of a 80 kilo rider, regardless of what i'm using to brake (within reason - ice blocks against my rims won't do much).

Weight is easily the biggest impact on how fast you slow down.

So your saying a light rider on rim brakes will outbrake a heavy rider on disc brakes?

Within reason yeah.

Ask Dish - fairly sure I outbraked him on my rim brakes and him on his disc.

graeme_s-2

Rick Chasey wrote:

Ask Dish - fairly sure I outbraked him on my rim brakes and him on his disc.

Does this count as fat shaming?

rick_chasey

Haha, I think I'm in no position to criticise Dish's ability as a rider.

ocdupalais

I mentioned this a while back, but in my humble opinion, all this stuff about variations in braking rates (between riders with rim and disk brakes) doesn't ring true to my experiences racing or in fast group rides.
Stroll forward to elite riders in GTs or Classics and the same still feels pertinent.
Any sensible rider modulates their braking in accordance to their surroundings.

If you feel that your descending potential is greater on account of superior brakes, then the only way you make that count is by getting the hell out of the way of everyone else (i.e. attack!). Any rider - especially a pro- who can't modify their braking to suit their scenario shouldn't have access to any sort of machinery, let alone a nice expensive bike.

m.r.m.

Tom Boonen shows off the winning disc brake Venge (Tim de Waele/TDWSport.com)

smoggysteve

M.R.M. wrote:

Tom Boonen shows off the winning disc brake Venge (Tim de Waele/TDWSport.com)

Wow you found a pic. Well done you! Has he won anything on it yet?

ugo.santalucia

A stage in the Tour of St Luis in Argentina, or something like that... glad it's Tommeke to bag the first ever win on discs

gweeds

SmoggySteve wrote:

M.R.M. wrote:

Tom Boonen shows off the winning disc brake Venge (Tim de Waele/TDWSport.com)

Wow you found a pic. Well done you! Has he won anything on it yet?

Vuelta Ciclista a la Provincia de San Juan, Stage 2.

So yes.

smoggysteve

Not exactly top quality competition there. Viviani only semi decent sprinter there

gweeds

I'm not sure what your point is?

You asked if he'd won anything on the disc bike, and he has.

Now you seem to want to qualify it with who he was riding against.

smoggysteve

Fair one but it's hardly a judge of the bike. Which it's not about anyway. I would expect Tom to win on a Raleigh chopper against that field

onyourright

It’s not about the bike, much less the brakes.

yorkshireraw

OCDuPalais wrote:

I mentioned this a while back, but in my humble opinion, all this stuff about variations in braking rates (between riders with rim and disk brakes) doesn't ring true to my experiences racing or in fast group rides.
Stroll forward to elite riders in GTs or Classics and the same still feels pertinent.
Any sensible rider modulates their braking in accordance to their surroundings.

If you feel that your descending potential is greater on account of superior brakes, then the only way you make that count is by getting the hell out of the way of everyone else (i.e. attack!). Any rider - especially a pro- who can't modify their braking to suit their scenario shouldn't have access to any sort of machinery, let alone a nice expensive bike.

Millar stated something similar - i.e. that if you can't brake properly you shouldn't be a pro rider. He also echoed the point that the likes of Dura-ace rim brakes are so good now the limiting issue is tyre grip.

gweeds

One of the first things my driving instructor drilled into me - brakes stop the wheels, tyres stop the car.

NeXXus

Gweeds wrote:

One of the first things my driving instructor drilled into me - brakes stop the wheels, tyres stop the car.

And on ice/slippery stuff the engine rpm is decreased which slows the wheel rotation.

ridgerider

OnYourRight wrote:

It’s not about the bike, much less the brakes.

It is if the league table of "good descender" suddenly gets turned upside down because of them...

We will just have to see. Let the roads decide!

meanredspider

Gweeds wrote:

One of the first things my driving instructor drilled into me - brakes stop the wheels, tyres stop the car.

But how you use the brakes fundamentally determines how well the tyres work. The more load you put into the tyre, the more grip the tyre generates. Stamp on the brake and there's no time for weight transfer and the tyre can't generate grip. Brake progressively and you have a virtuous circle of more load -> more grip -> more load -> more grip etc.

A bike is far more extreme than a car. You have a heavy rider up high on a very stiff system and a single small front tyre. Get it right and there's a massive load transmitted to that tyre which generates a great deal of grip (to the point that you'll lift the rear wheel - you won't do that in a car). I've never locked a front tyre on a bike but I've lifted a rear wheel loads. That, to me, is why it's nonsense to measure how good brakes are by their ability to lock a wheel and why modulation (the ability to progressively apply load to the tyre) is so important. If you're locking a front tyre in the dry, you aren't braking progressively and you certainly aren't using the maximum grip the tyre can generate.

Shadowrider

Wonder how much Boonen is being paid to ride that bike with disc brakes.

I have them on my slate, which they work well for but have never really seen the need for them on the road, learn to use your brakes properly and you'll be fine.

smoggysteve

Well there will be no disc brakes on a Pinarello any time soon amongst the Team Sky riders.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fausto-pinarello-we-dont-think-a-high-performance-bike-needs-disc-brakes/?utm_content=buffer84d33&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

rick_chasey

SmoggySteve wrote:

Well there will be no disc brakes on a Pinarello any time soon amongst the Team Sky riders.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fausto-pinarello-we-dont-think-a-high-performance-bike-needs-disc-brakes/?utm_content=buffer84d33&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer

"I think the only people who need disc brakes are those who are heavy or are scared on long descents"

meanredspider

If it rains, they'll simply go a little slower

He does realise that they're a race team, doesn't he?

smoggysteve

meanredspider wrote:

If it rains, they'll simply go a little slower

He does realise that they're a race team, doesn't he?

Yeah and Sky generally win races that go up not down

ddraver

Froome Dog begs to differ

Apparently he wanted a Disc bike for the (unplanned, totally spontaneous) descent of the Peyresourde

smoggysteve

ddraver wrote:

Froome Dog begs to differ

Apparently he wanted a Disc bike for the (unplanned, totally spontaneous) descent of the Peyresourde

I would think the best descenders would favour no discs. If you have the balls to fly down hill that fast you do so to outrun those that haven't. You wouldn't want them feeling they can keep up cos they have better brakes. Neutralises the threat

meanredspider

SmoggySteve wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Froome Dog begs to differ

Apparently he wanted a Disc bike for the (unplanned, totally spontaneous) descent of the Peyresourde

I would think the best descenders would favour no discs. If you have the balls to fly down hill that fast you do so to outrun those that haven't. You wouldn't want them feeling they can keep up cos they have better brakes. Neutralises the threat

Well, it's a theory. Ask any sportsman with a competitive atom in his body and he'll want the best kit he can get his hands on. This is a sport where they've risked their lives messing about doping themselves and you think they wouldn't want the best kit for the job???

smoggysteve

meanredspider wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Froome Dog begs to differ

Apparently he wanted a Disc bike for the (unplanned, totally spontaneous) descent of the Peyresourde

I would think the best descenders would favour no discs. If you have the balls to fly down hill that fast you do so to outrun those that haven't. You wouldn't want them feeling they can keep up cos they have better brakes. Neutralises the threat

Well, it's a theory. Ask any sportsman with a competitive atom in his body and he'll want the best kit he can get his hands on. This is a sport where they've risked their lives messing about doping themselves and you think they wouldn't want the best kit for the job???

Is a heavier bike with disc brakes better? There is a trade off that benefits some not all.

meanredspider

SmoggySteve wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Froome Dog begs to differ

Apparently he wanted a Disc bike for the (unplanned, totally spontaneous) descent of the Peyresourde

I would think the best descenders would favour no discs. If you have the balls to fly down hill that fast you do so to outrun those that haven't. You wouldn't want them feeling they can keep up cos they have better brakes. Neutralises the threat

Well, it's a theory. Ask any sportsman with a competitive atom in his body and he'll want the best kit he can get his hands on. This is a sport where they've risked their lives messing about doping themselves and you think they wouldn't want the best kit for the job???

Is a heavier bike with disc brakes better? There is a trade off that benefits some not all.

I wasn't suggesting that a disc bike was best for everything just challenging your assertion that the best descenders would somehow want the less good brakes for some (what I guess you believe are) psychological reasons. I'm suggesting that if you're a good descender, you will want to maximise your advantage by every means possible - if that's disc brakes, you'll take them.

It's also why I think when people suggest that competitive riders take some bit of (less good) kit "for money" it also doesn't stand to reason. In a sport where a good proportion of riders have cheated in the past by doping - risking their health, careers and livelihoods to do well - they would ride worse kit, thereby threatening their chances, for a few extra quid doesn't stand any scrutiny. Winners will do anything to get a slight edge.

smoggysteve

meanredspider wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

SmoggySteve wrote:

ddraver wrote:

Froome Dog begs to differ

Apparently he wanted a Disc bike for the (unplanned, totally spontaneous) descent of the Peyresourde

I would think the best descenders would favour no discs. If you have the balls to fly down hill that fast you do so to outrun those that haven't. You wouldn't want them feeling they can keep up cos they have better brakes. Neutralises the threat

Well, it's a theory. Ask any sportsman with a competitive atom in his body and he'll want the best kit he can get his hands on. This is a sport where they've risked their lives messing about doping themselves and you think they wouldn't want the best kit for the job???

Is a heavier bike with disc brakes better? There is a trade off that benefits some not all.

I wasn't suggesting that a disc bike was best for everything just challenging your assertion that the best descenders would somehow want the less good brakes for some (what I guess you believe are) psychological reasons. I'm suggesting that if you're a good descender, you will want to maximise your advantage by every means possible - if that's disc brakes, you'll take them.

It's also why I think when people suggest that competitive riders take some bit of (less good) kit "for money" it also doesn't stand to reason. In a sport where a good proportion of riders have cheated in the past by doping - risking their health, careers and livelihoods to do well - they would ride worse kit, thereby threatening their chances, for a few extra quid doesn't stand any scrutiny. Winners will do anything to get a slight edge.

Ive said it before. Descending is a skill. If I knew I could open a sizable gap by getting downhill faster on rim brakes than my rivals I wouldn't want something that could potentially close that gulf in class. Sure I may be able to brake quicker but if it makes others able to brake just as easily and my advantage is lessened