Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

fat_tail

Flamme Rouge wrote:

Project tubeless – Reflections on an Emotional Experience

Materials :- Rims – Mavic Open Pro UST, rim brake version (self-build)
Tyres – Panaracer A Evo3 (25 mm)
Tape (20.5mm), valves, sealant and syringe – Effetto Mariposa
Tyre levers – Bontrager

Manufacturer’s warnings which were ignored :-

1, Minimum tyre size - 28mm.

2, Use Mavic’s own valves.

3, Use Mavic’s own rim tape.

4. Maximum tyre pressure 6 bars.


Tips to relate following the fitting process:-

1, Remove all crockery and any living creatures you care about beyond a radius of 10kms.

2, Take slow, deep breaths to ensure calm state of mind. It won’t last.

3, The most precious thing in your life is the small channel Mavic have put in the well of the rim. Ensure the tape (two layers which fitted the rim precisely) is pressed down firmly into it with all bubbles and creases removed. You will need every millimetre it offers.

4, Do not insert valve fully. You will need the extra space this gives you in that small channel for the beads to fit.

5, The first bead will slip on with soapy water and a little help from a tyre lever having damaged your thumbs.

6, The second bead will only go on after much effort and language offensive to the ears of the most hardened of south London football fans. Method that worked was to place rim on cloth on floor; kneel on rim to prevent beads slipping off and apply large amounts of pressure with tyre levers. Soapy water a must. Additional tip that might have helped – use zip ties to prevent beads from slipping off as tyre levers are employed. Grippy, thin rubber gloves a help.

5, Do not tighten Effeto Mariposa valves with pliers in an attempt to stop leaking air. They will disappear through the valve hole. Tighten with fingers only. Do not break off said valve when it becomes stuck after using pliers. The broken end will rattle around inside the rim and refuse to come out. Only solution is to undo the tape and shake the end out through the larger holes in the outer part of the rim. Have spare tape, valves and sealant at the ready for cock-ups like this. Try to keep calm.

6, Leaking air at valve can be stopped by ignoring maximum pressure warning on rim and going for it in a this-will-have-to-bloody-work-because-I-don’t-know-what-else-will way with a track pump. This may, if you’re lucky, force sealant into any holes. Suspect best way of sealing leaks is to ride, as this will exert more force on the sealant. Dipping valve in sealant first before inserting might help.

7, Layer of “gum” on tyre will come off with all the efforts of trying to get the damn things on. It is not damage.

8, Damage is the red flecks on the rim scraped off the tyre levers as they struggle to cope.

9, Damage is also the dent in the rim following use of excessive force with tyre levers.

10, Thumbs and fingers will need some soothing balm by the end.

11, A 28mm tyre will, perhaps, be easier to fit on the Open Pro UST rim, given the near-impossibly tight tolerances of this particular rim/tyre combination. (See manufacturer’s warnings ignored above).

12, Tyre measures 25mm wide inflated on rim. Would easily have had enough room for a 28mm.

Pleasant surprises :-

Front inflated easily using track pump and held without sealant. Both tyres popped nicely into the rim.

Even more pleasant surprises :-

1, Ride quality outstanding – hints of Vittoria Corsa 25mm tubular plushness without the fear of a latex inner tube ‘going’ at 45kph on a corner. Absorb “chatter” over uneven surfaces to the same degree and much better than 23mm Prorace clinchers and 25mm Gatorskin tubulars.

2, Tough, high quality rubber. Long life expected.

3, 50kms of fast technical descents suggests they are the most assured rubber I’ve been on. Great control and no need to worry about punctures. Count me impressed.

4, Uphill – don’t feel fast (something to do with how well they absorb road vibration, bumps etc perhaps) but, looking at the speedometer, they are. Nice and quick.

5, 5 days after initial inflation difficult to tell if they’re losing any air at all. Work well at 5 bar.

With thanks to all contributors in this thread for sharing such a wonderful depth of knowledge and experience – especially ugo.santalucia and thecycleclinic – without whom this project simply would never have got on to a rim, let alone stayed inflated.

cycleclinic

try IRC levers they should make your life easier flamme rouge, they do for me.

paulmon

Flamme Rouge wrote:

Stuff

What happens when you need to put a tube in and your in the middle of nowhere and its pouring down? If a tubeless tyre is that tough to put on or doesn't seal then its probably not worth it.

I've just spent over a week trying to get some skinny Schwalbe Thunder Burt mtb tyres to seal on my Stans rims. They would appear to seal but would eventually leak all the air out through the sidewall. After a tub and half of sealant, new rim tape and new valves. I finally managed to get them to seal and stay up overnight. Went out on the bike the following day with two spare tubes just in case either one let go during the ride but didn't need them. Got up the following morning and both tyres were flat

fat_tail

PaulMon wrote:

Flamme Rouge wrote:

Stuff

What happens when you need to put a tube in and your in the middle of nowhere and its pouring down? If a tubeless tyre is that tough to put on or doesn't seal then its probably not worth it.

I've just spent over a week trying to get some skinny Schwalbe Thunder Burt mtb tyres to seal on my Stans rims. They would appear to seal but would eventually leak all the air out through the sidewall. After a tub and half of sealant, new rim tape and new valves. I finally managed to get them to seal and stay up overnight. Went out on the bike the following day with two spare tubes just in case either one let go during the ride but didn't need them. Got up the following morning and both tyres were flat

give the sealant a chance to work its magic...

cycleclinic

I dont carry a tube or tyre levers. If worms (and I have some bigger ones now) cant fix the hole the tyre is scrap anyway. I have never found the need to use a tube except when I did not know better. you might be in that situation with a pro one tyre but thats why i dont sell or ride on them.

dodgy

Just started riding on Hutchison Sector 28mm on some Hunt 4season Gravel Disc wheels. The rear tyre loses about 60% of its pressure overnight, but it's improving slowly.

I was most surprised at just how low I could take the pressure without the tyres 'squatting', I put 60psi in the rear and 55psi in the front, might drop it further (I'm 80kg).

Can't say I've noticed a night and day improvement in ride quality, this is my first experience of tubeless, but I think there is at least some improvement.

btiratsoo

I am running tubeless on my Bokeh. Bloody love it. Here is the set up for those interested:

Hope 20Five 700c wheelset converted to tubeless with 1" Gorilla tape and 160ml of Stans sealant per wheel
Schwalbe G-One 38mm
Tubeless Schrader valves 38mm long

To convert the Hope wheels I did the following:
2 good tight wraps of 1" Gorilla tape using a tyre lever to push the tape well under the bead of the rim. I then drilled the rims out to fit Schrader valves and also put the hole in the tape. A 9mm drill bit worked perfectly. I then put the tyres on the rims with a tube in each inflated to 120 psi and left that over night. I found this helped to shape the tyre and sort any niggles with the tape.

Removed the tube and fitted the Schrader valves using a set of pliers to tighten the lock ring and get the valve well and truly stated. A small amount of vaseline helps the rubber base of the valve seat in the V of the rim.

Fit the tyre and inflate. I didn't use any soapy water and the pump used was a Halfords track pump. Tip: Remove the valve core and it helps with seating the tyre. Once seated, stick the valve core back in and inflate to 65psi.

Remove the valve core and deflate. Using a syringe, fill the tyre through the valve with approx 160ml of sealant as the G-One side walls tend to seep a small amount through. Put the valve core back in. Inflate. Slosh the sealant around the tyre to ensure a good covering of any leaks etc.

I found it took approx 48 hours or so for the whole set up to become fully air tight - no problems riding but was losing maybe 5psi in 8 hours. No loss of pressure apart from maybe 5 PSI a week. Suffered a thorn through the tread the other day, sealant did its job and enabled me to carry on happily without the need for topping up the air.

Hope this helps.

cycleclinic

Ride Comfort is tyre dependent like it is with clinchers. If you have been using 25mm or 28mm corsa's and switch to sectors you might not see any comfort improvements.

Also some tyres do loose air it is the lack of sealing on the tyre that's problem. It may get better with time. It is not the concept that is flawed but how it is executed by some tyre manufacturers.

However I suspect the air loss is a loose valve or a taping problem (dodgy)

160ml is way too much sealant. You increase the rolling resistance by over filling.

btiratsoo

I agree that 160ml is a lot but it works and on a 38mm tyre the rolling resistance is fairly high anyway. I ride off road as much as on so the tyres can burp every now and then. I learnt from MTB tubeless that it's better to have too much than too little in these situations.

If I was purely on the road on narrow tyres then yes, less sealant.

I also agree that the air loss is probably a taping or tyre manufacturer issue. The Hope rims aren't tubeless rims as I stated that I had to convert them. I'm perfectly happy with the set up and happy to check tyre pressures before every ride.

I certainly won't ever use tubes again! Thanks for your website tips cycleclinic. They have been very useful and very helpful.

paulmon

thecycleclinic wrote:

160ml is way too much sealant. You increase the rolling resistance by over filling.

I agree. I use less than 100ml on my 29x 2.35/2.2 MTB tyres. If the tyre is not fully tubeless ready like the Schwalbe Thunder Burts I had problems with then you will use more but just keep topping up rather than throwing it all in at once.

P

btiratsoo

Fair points gents. I haven't noticed any difference though in the amount of sealant used verses rolling resistance. Inflation pressure makes more of a noticeable change.

Incidentally Stans guidelines were 60 to 90ml of sealant for Schwalbe G-One tyres.

cycleclinic

you wont notice 2-3W but it can be measured. using that muich sleant does not help the holes seal any better. I put 70 ml in a 2.2" tyre.

zefs

How many km's do the leading tubeless tyres currently last on road bikes?

fuel2000

zefs wrote:

How many km's do the leading tubeless tyres currently last on road bikes?

I got 2000 miles out of rear irc rbcc tyre, that was down to the wire! Front shows no real signs of wear.

schlepcycling

zefs wrote:

How many km's do the leading tubeless tyres currently last on road bikes?

I got 4000+ miles out of my IRC Roadlites.

roubaixmb

I got 4000 miles out of an IRCC x guard on rear then rubber split along seam (no sealant splatter in that time). Probably up to at least that on the front (fitted later) with no obvious signs of wear and just one splattering of sealant to date.

zefs

So basically they last as much as the non-tubeless tyres? I use GP4000s2 at the moment and want to try tubeless with Mavic Yksium UST's (or maybe Schwalbe Pro One) but they are a bit expensive if they last as much as the non-tubeless tyres.

What fast rolling tire would you recommend for 25mm wheels (17.5mm internal) ? I am looking for one that is the easiest to add/remove from wheels and in that matter I think the Mavic are the best ones?

sloppyschleckonds

zefs wrote:

So basically they last as much as the non-tubeless tyres? I use GP4000s2 at the moment and want to try tubeless with Mavic Yksium UST's (or maybe Schwalbe Pro One) but they are a bit expensive if they last as much as the non-tubeless tyres.

What fast rolling tire would you recommend for 25mm wheels (17.5mm internal) ? I am looking for one that is the easiest to add/remove from wheels and in that matter I think the Mavic are the best ones?

As the MAvic Yksiums aren't brilliant tyres tubed, hard to see how they've made them better for tubeless

Maxxis Padrone or Schwalbe Pro One's. The Vittoria Corsa Speeds seem 'fast rolling' but too fragile for everyday riding

bobones

You can get Schwalbe Pro Ones for £35 each. My rear lasted almost exactly 2,500 miles, and the 23mm measured 25mm on a wide rim. I found the Pro Ones very easy to mount and inflate. IRC RBCC and Maxxis Padrone are also worth looking at.

singleton

I have just fitted some of the new Hutchinson lighter "tubeless ready" tyres in place of my old Schwalbe Pro 1's.
The Hutchinsons were easier to get on the wheel, easier to get seated and feel just the same if not better than the Schwalbe's.

Performance on the winter wheels for some extra protection - £23 each from acycles:
https://www.acycles.co.uk/hutchinson-fu ... -tyre.html
Galactik on the summer wheels - £30 each from acycles:
https://www.acycles.co.uk/pneu-hutchins ... 27321.html

zefs

Thanks for the suggestions. I am a bit concerned about the sealant and corrosion though as I read some reports. I have carbon wheels that don't have spoke holes, not sure if it's safe to use sealant even if it's ammonia free. Some said it shouldn't be an issue with carbon but who knows?

singleton

My summer wheels are carbon tubeless.
People like cycleclinic, wheelsmith, hunt and many others advertise and sell a lot of carbon tubeless wheels.
I have done a fair amount of research myself and not come across this before.

timothyw

This has probably been mentioned before but I seem to be struggling to google straight answers - what tubeless rim tape and width would people recommend for:

Kinlin Xr31t
DT R460
H Plus Son Archetype (yes I know not strictly tubeless rims but have read some successful reports...)

Thanks in advance!

bobones

TimothyW wrote:

This has probably been mentioned before but I seem to be struggling to google straight answers - what tubeless rim tape and width would people recommend for:

Kinlin Xr31t
DT R460
H Plus Son Archetype (yes I know not strictly tubeless rims but have read some successful reports...)

Thanks in advance!

21mm is recommended for DT Swiss R460, which has an internal width of 18mm. The Archetype has an internal width of 17.5mm and the Xr31t is 19mm, so I would expect 21mm to be fine for these too. I've used Stans, DT Swiss, and VAR rim tape. All worked fine, but the VAR from Cycleclinic was the cheapest.

bobones

Singleton wrote:

I have just fitted some of the new Hutchinson lighter "tubeless ready" tyres in place of my old Schwalbe Pro 1's.
The Hutchinsons were easier to get on the wheel, easier to get seated and feel just the same if not better than the Schwalbe's.

Performance on the winter wheels for some extra protection - £23 each from acycles:
https://www.acycles.co.uk/hutchinson-fu ... -tyre.html
Galactik on the summer wheels - £30 each from acycles:
https://www.acycles.co.uk/pneu-hutchins ... 27321.html

I've been running the Fusion 5 Performance on my winter bike for a couple of months and have around 700 miles on them. They seem to use quite a soft compound so they grip well and the ride feels quite plush; however, they are nowhere near as light as the Schwalbe Pro Ones I have on my good bike.

Durability remains to be seen, however, and I have recently picked up a couple of innocuous looking punctures which have not sealed and haven't been repairable on the road with worms. I am not sure exactly what the problem is: these are punctures I would expect to seal, and the same sealant (Stans) has worked well on the Pro Ones, so I am wondering is it the tyres, the sealant or just the road/weather conditions? I am going to try with Stan's Race or Orange Seal Endurance sealant, but if the punctures aren't sealing, and I'm having to fit tubes to get home, I'm struggling to justify continuing with tubeless.

graeme_s-2

Has anybody tried converting to tubeless with non-tubeless rims? Is this a reasonable thing to do, or is it a good way to end up in A&E?

I was considering using a tubeless tyre on some non-tubeless rims (because that's what I have), sealing the rim with gorilla tape and then using sealant etc. I'm running 38C tyres at 40-60psi with tubes at the moment, so I'd be at the lower end of the pressure spectrum.

Has anyone tried this and not died doing it?

bobones

Graeme_S wrote:

Has anybody tried converting to tubeless with non-tubeless rims? Is this a reasonable thing to do, or is it a good way to end up in A&E?

I was considering using a tubeless tyre on some non-tubeless rims (because that's what I have), sealing the rim with gorilla tape and then using sealant etc. I'm running 38C tyres at 40-60 psi with tubes at the moment, so I'd be at the lower end of the pressure spectrum.

Has anyone tried this and not died doing it?

Plenty of people do this without trouble. IME, some non-tubeless rims actually work better than tubeless ones in terms of ease of mounting and inflation etc. Tubeless rims have a ridge or shelf near the bead which helps keep the tyre seated when fully deflated, which is advantageous to safety and can make reinflation easier.

I have had less luck with Gorilla tape, however, and I am not sure that it is suitable in high pressure setups, i.e. road bike tyres. While it seems to work, leaks seem to develop quickly, and it is a PITA to remove the residue glue. No such problems with proper tubeless tape like Stans, VAR or DT Swiss.

bobones

Received my 25mm Hutchinson Fusion 5 All Season Tubeless Ready tyres today from Acycles. I didn't realise that there are 2 different versions of the Hutchinson Tyres: Tubeless and Tubeless Ready. These are the Tubeless Ready ones and at 260g (measured) they are much lighter than the 320g Tubeless Fusion 5 Performance I already had. I guess the lack of butyl lining saves a fair bit of weight.

I've had 6 punctures in the last 2 or 3 weeks with the Performance: 5 on the rear tyre, 3 of which did not seal and needed to be patched. Since I put in Orange Seal, the punctures have sealed, but the frequency is alarming so I am retiring the rear, after only 1000 miles, and replacing it with the TLR All Season to see if it fares any better.

On the plus side, the All Season was really easy to mount and inflated first go with a track pump so it will be interesting to see if how it performs in terms of comfort, durability and puncture resistance.

If you're in the market for tyres then the deals at Acycles are worth a look. Tubeless Ready 25mm for All Season, Performance and Galaktic and 23/25 Tubeless Galaktic, 23 Tubeless Performance and All Season are all available for £23 - £30.

davidof

bobones wrote:

If you're in the market for tyres then the deals at Acycles are worth a look. Tubeless Ready 25mm for All Season, Performance and Galaktic and 23/25 Tubeless Galaktic, 23 Tubeless Performance and All Season are all available for £23 - £30.

The Hutchinson tubeless ready seem to be very cheap at the moment. I'm seeing them at 22 euros in France. Is it just the end of season? Or are the tires poor and not selling well?

timothyw

The post above you would suggest they're somewhat poor although I suspect competition from Schwalbe is probably a large part of it.

Either way, I'm happy to see tubeless becoming more affordable.