Road tubeless tyres, where and how much?

ugo.santalucia

A friend of mine has the Schwalbe ONE clincher... the so called excellent puncture protection is not very effective at all.
We both punctured at the Gent-Wevelgem, his clinchers were brand new, my tubeless were about 1K miles old, but guess who had to get off and fix it? As it was inside the final 30 Km, when the ride become a race and punctures were no longer neutralised, we looked at each other but nobody stopped to help him...

Origami02

Some would call that anecdotal, but arguing is not my interest. As I said I only shared information make of it what you will. As I also said, everyone must make up their own minds.http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/arti ... ess-44186/

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lostboysaint

Origami02 wrote:

Some would call that anecdotal, but arguing is not my interest. As I said I only shared information make of it what you will. As I said, everyone must make up their own minds.http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/arti ... ess-44186/

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And the test isn't anecdotal because........

Come on, you really need to do better than "a few tyre manufacturers who aren't up to speed with road tubeless yet make negative comments, despite producing plenty of tubeless tyres for the MTB market..." article. Or are you always this gullible? In which case, I am a Nigerian Prince, please forward me your bank details by PM.

Origami02

@LBS what I'm taking is the FACT as stated by a Schwalbe empolyee that the V Guard is left out of TL Ones.I'm not sure how that fact is subjective.
Anyone can read the article it's actually a very balanced view.

M1llh0use

So, back to the thread title, schwalbe one tubeless. who from and how much?

ugo.santalucia

Origami02 wrote:

@LBS what I'm taking is the FACT as stated by a Schwalbe empolyee that the V Guard is left out of TL Ones.I'm not sure how that fact is subjective.
Anyone can read the article it's actually a very balanced view.

The problem is that both sealant and puncture protection layer do the same job, that is of preventing/fixing small holes... neither works with big holes. If you combine the two, the time you will spend at the side of the road will be the same... as the sealant will not fix the big holes that the PPL did not prevent

IME the sealant works better than the belt, so I'd go with the sealant and leave the belt

drlodge

starbike.com EUR 37.90 which is about £28 plus postage

g00se

munkster wrote:

but what's the current place for Schwalbe One 25mm tubeless tyres please? :-) Bike24 only has 23mm by the looks of it...

Found some - HiBike have them in 25mm if anyone is looking ;-)

Cheers for that - just pulled the trigger for the first time.

Ugo, any updates on the IRCs? Saw those a while back and the reviews look good (been considering loosing the tubeless cherry for 12 months). How do they compare with the Schwalbes?

bendertherobot

Have to say that I wasn't aware that the V guard had been taken out. The tyres are 100g more than the normal version. Having taken one set off and put the tubeless on I can say, anecdotally, that it's not just the sidewalls that are thicker, the main carcass also felt considerably more robust. In fact, they felt like Durano Plus in terms of their robustness.

How do they roll? Better than the clinchers. Hyper fast. Very grippy.

Origami02

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Origami02 wrote:

@LBS what I'm taking is the FACT as stated by a Schwalbe empolyee that the V Guard is left out of TL Ones.I'm not sure how that fact is subjective.
Anyone can read the article it's actually a very balanced view.

The problem is that both sealant and puncture protection layer do the same job, that is of preventing/fixing small holes... neither works with big holes. If you combine the two, the time you will spend at the side of the road will be the same... as the sealant will not fix the big holes that the PPL did not prevent

IME the sealant works better than the belt, so I'd go with the sealant and leave the belt

Obviously everyone has their own opinion, and that's only right. IRC seem to see a benefit having both TL and penetration protection.

IRC wrote:

The X-Guard belt with high penetration resistance enables a tubeless tire to increase its puncture resistance without compromising the comfortable ride or low rolling resistance. In addition to a normal puncture-resistant ply, these tires are layered with an extra 40x40 tpi mesh puncture guard, boosting puncture resistance by 47%.
The tires have proven themselves - in terms of durability, trouble avoidance, and safety - under harsh conditions that demand extreme performance. The Formula PRO TUBELESS X-Guard expands the potential of tubeless tires to new levels.

http://www.irc-tire.com/en/bc/products/ ... ula_tl-xg/
And I tend to agree with them, I still think that the article in question is well worth a read.It covers TL from more than just the puncture perspective.
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/arti ... ess-44186/

ugo.santalucia

I am testing the IRC roadlite, which do not have the puncture protection belt... it would be interesting to see the difference with one that has it, but I don't think the X guard ones are even available in EU. \the Belgian distributor had the Roadlite as 25 or the Formula PRO (non X-Guard) as 23 and asked me which ones I wanted... I went for the former for two reasons

1) They are 25, which is what I wanted and what most people want

2) They seem to be a like for like comparison with the ONE, whilst the formula PRO are much more expensive, lighter etc. etc... probably too expensive for the UK market

drlodge

Just googled the Formula Pro tyres. On Amazon its...its... £155 !!!!!

Origami02

drlodge wrote:

Just googled the Formula Pro tyres. On Amazon its...its... £155 !!!!!

That kind of adds to how silly it is leaving V Gaurd out of the TL Ones : Why not give them all the benefits of a premium tyre like the IRC. Would leaving it in really have elevated the price to anywhere near £155?

To my mind leaving it out simply to make rolling resistance competitive or as Ugo put it so very much better than I did :

Ugo wrote:

Light weight and low rolling resistance are mirrors for fools when you are talking 1-2 Watt and 50 grams difference.

seems like a bit of an own goal by Schwalbe. No wonder it wasn't common knowledge.

drlodge

I agree with Ugo that

Light weight and low rolling resistance are mirrors for fools when you are talking 1-2 Watt and 50 grams difference.

However the difference I noticed (or perceived to notice) is much more than 1-2 watts lower rolling resistance. Either the tyres are substantially better than 1-2 watts improvement, or other factors are involved. I start to question my own judgement now as I was riding in a group, which would keep be fresher for longer and might then explain why I was able to completely smash my PB going up Crocknorth 30 miles in. Or may be the new wheels also made an improvement. Probably a combination of lots of factors. Only several hundred miles will really give me a good view.

One improvement I did notice was the excellent ride quality, comparable to the Vittoria Corsa EVO CX Open clincher. Adding a protection belt would surely compromise this aspect. I just don't see the "value" of adding puncture protection to a tubeless tyre when the tyre will seal itself anyway.

bendertherobot

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YendcE9h1_o

Hadn't seen this one before. Nice bit of sticking a big sharp object through it at the end.

ugo.santalucia

WE are all drifting off topic...

anyway my 1-2 W, was referring to Conti people statement that their tyres outperform any tubeless offering, there fore according to them there is no need to go that route.
IF they outperform, we are indeed talking 1-2 W

ddraver

With respect to Vittoria, who buys budget Vittoria tyres? I can see why they are so focussed on pure performance and, to be fair, all power to them! In terms of pure performance on clean smooth EU roads I also think that Tubeless provide little benefit (I don't really get your safety point Ugo)

Continental sound a little bit like SRAM did about electronic shifting to me.

ugo.santalucia

ddraver wrote:

With respect to Vittoria, who buys budget Vittoria tyres? I can see why they are so focussed on pure performance and, to be fair, all power to them! In terms of pure performance on clean smooth EU roads I also think that Tubeless provide little benefit (I don't really get your safety point Ugo)

Continental sound a little bit like SRAM did about electronic shifting to me.

You don't get it because you don't want to get it, it's been discussed extensively... puncture at 40 mph downhill with a clincher or a tubeless... it is a different experience and possibly a different outcome

bendertherobot

ddraver wrote:

With respect to Vittoria, who buys budget Vittoria tyres? I can see why they are so focussed on pure performance and, to be fair, all power to them! In terms of pure performance on clean smooth EU roads I also think that Tubeless provide little benefit (I don't really get your safety point Ugo)

Continental sound a little bit like SRAM did about electronic shifting to me.

I do. I bought their runout Hyper Voyager at PX. £9 each. If they were tubeless it would be even better, paritcularly since they are in the target market, i.e. +28c

Origami02

ugo.santalucia wrote:

ddraver wrote:

With respect to Vittoria, who buys budget Vittoria tyres? I can see why they are so focussed on pure performance and, to be fair, all power to them! In terms of pure performance on clean smooth EU roads I also think that Tubeless provide little benefit (I don't really get your safety point Ugo)

Continental sound a little bit like SRAM did about electronic shifting to me.

You don't get it because you don't want to get it, it's been discussed extensively... puncture at 40 mph downhill with a clincher or a tubeless... it is a different experience and possibly a different outcome

Cyclists have been riding down hill at 40mph for decades. If we believe the figures, less than 10% of cyclists who ride downhill today at 40mph do so on tubeless tyres. If these blowouts were a big issue TL would have been a massive self-seller way before now.
Using fear to sell, or scaremongering if you'd rather, is a very tried and tested marketing technique, it's just doesn't appear to be working that well in the case of TL cycle tyres.

bendertherobot

Origami02 wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

ddraver wrote:

With respect to Vittoria, who buys budget Vittoria tyres? I can see why they are so focussed on pure performance and, to be fair, all power to them! In terms of pure performance on clean smooth EU roads I also think that Tubeless provide little benefit (I don't really get your safety point Ugo)

Continental sound a little bit like SRAM did about electronic shifting to me.

You don't get it because you don't want to get it, it's been discussed extensively... puncture at 40 mph downhill with a clincher or a tubeless... it is a different experience and possibly a different outcome

Cyclists have been riding down hill at 40mph for decades. If we believe the figures, less than 10% of cyclists who ride downhill today at 40mph do so on tubeless tyres. If these blowouts were a big issue TL would have been a massive self-seller way before now.
Using fear to sell, or scaremongering if you'd rather, is a very tried and tested marketing technique, it's just doesn't appear to be working that well in the case of TL cycle tyres.

He explained the safety point. It's not the only point to tubeless. But the safety point is a good one. I've blownout 3 tyres simultaneously at 40. A very scary experience, try stopping on metal rims on a tarmac road. It takes a while. You can't blow out a tubeless or get the rubber off the rim. A totally different experience in terms of the safety issue. It's not about fear, it's about telling people the advantages of tubeless. One is safety.

ugo.santalucia

bendertherobot wrote:

I've blownout 3 tyres simultaneously at 40....

:shock: :shock:

bendertherobot

Come on, best typo ever.

Mind, I shouldn't bleat, they were both Schwalbe Ultremo. Remember the whole recall thing? I go two free tyres and some weird german giant cookie thing from them.

ddraver

bendertherobot wrote:

ddraver wrote:

With respect to Vittoria, who buys budget Vittoria tyres? I can see why they are so focussed on pure performance and, to be fair, all power to them! In terms of pure performance on clean smooth EU roads I also think that Tubeless provide little benefit (I don't really get your safety point Ugo)

Continental sound a little bit like SRAM did about electronic shifting to me.

I do. I bought their runout Hyper Voyager at PX. £9 each. If they were tubeless it would be even better, paritcularly since they are in the target market, i.e. +28c

Except when they re 80% off Those are the daddy of touring tyres! (50 squids new arent they? or maybe that was EURs) How do you find them? I was thinking of getting some for Touring on the MTB

Good on Schwalbe but I think it's a pretty rare occurrence. I get what you mean.

bendertherobot

Really good. Plush and roll really quickly.

g00se

The Schwalbe Ones 25 arrived this morning. I'll get the other bits and pieces together and get them installed.

Any recommendations on sealant? From what I've read, Stans is the go-to standard, but can clump in the tyre. Orange has a good reputation and doesn't clump - as does Bontrager.

This is a comparison review for sealant in tubes - would the results have relevance to tubeless?



http://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/Thin ... _4155.html

ugo.santalucia

If they don't clump, I wonder if they actually work... the working principle is based on "clumping"

ddraver

An awful lot of them are the same stuff in different bottles goose. Stans or Cafe latex usually get good reviews. The schwalbe one is Stans for example

MisterMuncher

I think tubeless ones might have jumped to the top of personal tyre chart. They're maybe not quite as nice as Open Corsa, but they also don't shed lumps of rubber when exposed to a picture of the roads round here. I'll happily have 90% of the ride quality for 5 or 6 times the lifespan.

ugo.santalucia

MisterMuncher wrote:

I think tubeless ones might have jumped to the top of personal tyre chart. They're maybe not quite as nice as Open Corsa, but they also don't shed lumps of rubber when exposed to a picture of the roads round here. I'll happily have 90% of the ride quality for 5 or 6 times the lifespan.

I have ridden Open Corsa CX and Corsa CX tubulars... in Italy they have always been fine and adquate, but over here the life span is shocking... one bad day and you can throw a new tyre in the bin. On a recent ride (mildly moist) a friend had 4 punctures on an Open Corsa... that is beyond the joke. I also had a pair of Corsa SC with the tan sidewall... the sidewall collapsed after a 20 meters section of cobbles in the old Windsor town... ludicrous