Di2 owners, once gone electric wont go back?

bernithebiker · February 2015

meanredspider wrote:

I'd suspect the battery or the charger first. The battery doesn't sound very good. My (external) battery charger goes from empty to full in probably less than an hour.

Just as an aside (in case someone has similar behaviour) the Volagi has been sat for two or three months and, when I came to ride it, I tested the battery with the lever and got green. Set off and had only FD. Checked battery charge again (using right lever - showing it was connected) and had red. Same with left lever. FD continued to work (albeit hesitantly) but no RD. Anyhow, 10 minute charge and all was good.

Just worth being aware that if the battery is drained over long term:
- it might show green on first test
- FD might work and RD not (reverse of behaviour when battery drains on a ride)

Thanks, but this was fully charged the night before, and the following day only gave 100km of riding.

I suspect the EWW01 might be something to do with it. I'm strongly considering ripping the bloody thing out and sending it back to Shimano.

But will they cover me for the £200 RRP (how much?!!) cost of a new battery?

Nightmare.

meanredspider · February 2015

Why will you need a new battery if you rip out the transmitter? Can't you by-pass it just as a test?

bernithebiker · February 2015

meanredspider wrote:

Why will you need a new battery if you rip out the transmitter? Can't you by-pass it just as a test?

I suspect the damage is done - over the last 4 weeks the EWW01 has been in, it's no doubt been working the battery extra hard, to the point where the battery is no longer able to hold a full charge.

In my experience, once a battery starts to under perform, it doesn't get any better......

ai_1 · February 2015

Bar Shaker wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

NorvernRob wrote:

All those analogies aren't really right. It's hardly more effort to change gear on a cable bike than it is with Di2. My mate has had Ultegra Di2 for a while, he's just bought a new bike with Red 22 and is keeping it over the Di2.

He says the Di2 was nice but it hasn't bothered him going back to mechanical, the Di2 may have auto trimming but the Red yaw front mech doesn't need any - he was surprised he could use every gear without rubbing.

There's a very good chance I'll get the wireless Red at some point (as long as it's lighter than mechanical or I won't bother) - but it won't be because there's anything wrong with mechanical, I just like new stuff.

A wireless set up needs a battery in every component and is always at risk of interference. There isn't a hope of the SRAM system being close to the weight of mechanical, or as reliable as Di2.

While distributed power storage is pretty messy (and I'm not sure what real benefit it brings) lithium batteries still have good "capacity density" at small sizes so I don't think this will necessarily drive up the weight. Likewise local Bluetooth, ANT or proprietary wireless communications can be very compact and lightweight. I would see distributed power and wireless communication as additional potential points of failure but I'm not sure they necessarily mean significant weight increase.

Four batteries, four charging requirements... All too much of a faff. Lithium batteries may be light, the Di2 unit is one, but four would either have a tiny life or would be heavier.

Four charging points? It's a complication that just isn't needed.

I don't disagree that multiple charging points would be unnecessary hassle.
Howevr, as I said, small lithium cells are fine for energy density so why would 2, 3 or 4 be significantly heavier than 1 for the same life span? Let me give an example, I'll just make up some numbers because I have no idea what number or size cells Di2 uses or the relative energy usage of the components.

Let's pretend for Di2:
- Single cell 2000mAh weighing 100g
- STIs (each) = 3%
- FD = 20%
- RD = 74%

So if you wanted to distribute the cells and keep the same lifespan:
- STI each need 60mAh likely to weigh approx 3g
- FD needs 400mAh likely to weigh approx 20g
- RD needs 1480mAh likely to weigh approx 74g

You don't lose lifespan, you'll add some weight with charging points but almost certainly less than you'll lose with elimination of cables.

So I fail to see why you think life span or weight need to suffer significantly, or at all, due to power supply distribution. A lot will depend on exactly which cells they use but I don't see a clear reason to expect this to be a problem.

I DO see other problems with wireless electronic shifting but weight and battery life are not among them.

meanredspider · February 2015

bernithebiker wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Why will you need a new battery if you rip out the transmitter? Can't you by-pass it just as a test?

I suspect the damage is done - over the last 4 weeks the EWW01 has been in, it's no doubt been working the battery extra hard, to the point where the battery is no longer able to hold a full charge.

In my experience, once a battery starts to under perform, it doesn't get any better......

Normally you only kill modern batteries by putting them into deep discharge at which point they fail to recover. I'd try without the EWW01 first and see what happens

bernithebiker · February 2015

meanredspider wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Why will you need a new battery if you rip out the transmitter? Can't you by-pass it just as a test?

I suspect the damage is done - over the last 4 weeks the EWW01 has been in, it's no doubt been working the battery extra hard, to the point where the battery is no longer able to hold a full charge.

In my experience, once a battery starts to under perform, it doesn't get any better......

Normally you only kill modern batteries by putting them into deep discharge at which point they fail to recover. I'd try without the EWW01 first and see what happens

Thanks for advice.

Shimano France have told me to try and charge via a computer (using the USB plug) rather than going directly into a plug socket via a USB charger.

Not sure what difference that will make, but I'll give it a go.....

meanredspider · February 2015

bernithebiker wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Why will you need a new battery if you rip out the transmitter? Can't you by-pass it just as a test?

I suspect the damage is done - over the last 4 weeks the EWW01 has been in, it's no doubt been working the battery extra hard, to the point where the battery is no longer able to hold a full charge.

In my experience, once a battery starts to under perform, it doesn't get any better......

Normally you only kill modern batteries by putting them into deep discharge at which point they fail to recover. I'd try without the EWW01 first and see what happens

Thanks for advice.

Shimano France have told me to try and charge via a computer (using the USB plug) rather than going directly into a plug socket via a USB charger.

Not sure what difference that will make, but I'll give it a go.....

It's probably the powrr that can be delivered. Not all USB wall chargers are born equal (anybody who has tried charging an iPad with an iPhone charger will know) so you need something with a bit of kick. Your computer will tell you if the load is too high for the USB port.

Remarkable · February 2015

bernithebiker wrote:

Shimano France have told me to try and charge via a computer (using the USB plug) rather than going directly into a plug socket via a USB charger.

Not sure what difference that will make, but I'll give it a go.....

Most likely to check that the transformer in the (mains socket) USB plug adopter isn't faulty, and to make sure its not a bad connection. Sometimes its the simple things.

ai_1 · February 2015

bernithebiker wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Why will you need a new battery if you rip out the transmitter? Can't you by-pass it just as a test?

I suspect the damage is done - over the last 4 weeks the EWW01 has been in, it's no doubt been working the battery extra hard, to the point where the battery is no longer able to hold a full charge.

In my experience, once a battery starts to under perform, it doesn't get any better......

Normally you only kill modern batteries by putting them into deep discharge at which point they fail to recover. I'd try without the EWW01 first and see what happens

Thanks for advice.

Shimano France have told me to try and charge via a computer (using the USB plug) rather than going directly into a plug socket via a USB charger.

Not sure what difference that will make, but I'll give it a go.....

Probably either to get a lower charge rate or to rule out a charger fault as the cause. It's likely the mains charger output is higher than a USB. Although I think USB 3 has a higher power output, not sure about that. So use a USB 1 or 2 if you have one.

norvernrob · February 2015

Ai_1 wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

NorvernRob wrote:

All those analogies aren't really right. It's hardly more effort to change gear on a cable bike than it is with Di2. My mate has had Ultegra Di2 for a while, he's just bought a new bike with Red 22 and is keeping it over the Di2.

He says the Di2 was nice but it hasn't bothered him going back to mechanical, the Di2 may have auto trimming but the Red yaw front mech doesn't need any - he was surprised he could use every gear without rubbing.

There's a very good chance I'll get the wireless Red at some point (as long as it's lighter than mechanical or I won't bother) - but it won't be because there's anything wrong with mechanical, I just like new stuff.

A wireless set up needs a battery in every component and is always at risk of interference. There isn't a hope of the SRAM system being close to the weight of mechanical, or as reliable as Di2.

While distributed power storage is pretty messy (and I'm not sure what real benefit it brings) lithium batteries still have good "capacity density" at small sizes so I don't think this will necessarily drive up the weight. Likewise local Bluetooth, ANT or proprietary wireless communications can be very compact and lightweight. I would see distributed power and wireless communication as additional potential points of failure but I'm not sure they necessarily mean significant weight increase.

Four batteries, four charging requirements... All too much of a faff. Lithium batteries may be light, the Di2 unit is one, but four would either have a tiny life or would be heavier.

Four charging points? It's a complication that just isn't needed.

I don't disagree that multiple charging points would be unnecessary hassle.
Howevr, as I said, small lithium cells are fine for energy density so why would 2, 3 or 4 be significantly heavier than 1 for the same life span? Let me give an example, I'll just make up some numbers because I have no idea what number or size cells Di2 uses or the relative energy usage of the components.

Let's pretend for Di2:
- Single cell 2000mAh weighing 100g
- STIs (each) = 3%
- FD = 20%
- RD = 74%

So if you wanted to distribute the cells and keep the same lifespan:
- STI each need 60mAh likely to weigh approx 3g
- FD needs 400mAh likely to weigh approx 20g
- RD needs 1480mAh likely to weigh approx 74g

You don't lose lifespan, you'll add some weight with charging points but almost certainly less than you'll lose with elimination of cables.

So I fail to see why you think life span or weight need to suffer significantly, or at all, due to power supply distribution. A lot will depend on exactly which cells they use but I don't see a clear reason to expect this to be a problem.

I DO see other problems with wireless electronic shifting but weight and battery life are not among them.

There was more information released recently. It looks like the shifters take the 2025 button batteries, and the mechs have rechargeable, interchangeable battery units. They may also have said the units can be removed and charged but I may be making that up as I can't remember for certain!

DKay · February 2015

Draining Di2 batteries is sometimes down to a short circuit somewhere and is often due to a dodgy junction box. Swapping it out solves the problem.

Bar Shaker · February 2015

Berni the EWW01 only sends a signal when it gets a pulse from you changing gear. If you aren't changing gear, no power is sent to the unit.

I expected mine to slightly reduce my Di2 battery life and it has, but by less than 10% difference. Even that has a bit of conjecture added as it is impossible to accurately measure the percentage without an EWW01 (or plugging in eTube). Either way, a battery charge still lasts for months to 50% remaining, rather than days.

bernithebiker · February 2015

Bar Shaker wrote:

Berni the EWW01 only sends a signal when it gets a pulse from you changing gear. If you aren't changing gear, no power is sent to the unit.

I expected mine to slightly reduce my Di2 battery life and it has, but by less than 10% difference. Even that has a bit of conjecture added as it is impossible to accurately measure the percentage without an EWW01 (or plugging in eTube). Either way, a battery charge still lasts for months to 50% remaining, rather than days.

I've now tried what Shimano said; charging via a laptop as opposed to straight from a transformer.

Seems to have done the trick - I can now get the battery to show solid green, and it's stayed solid after a 1.5 hour ride.

Kind of weird, but hey.......

meanredspider · February 2015

Then I suspect your charger isn't up to snuff. Is it a Shimano one?

bernithebiker · February 2015

meanredspider wrote:

Then I suspect your charger isn't up to snuff. Is it a Shimano one?

Yes, it's the one that comes with the internal battery. But I don't think it's anything to do with the charger, more how and where you plug it in.

Fishboyz · April 2015

As the OP owner just thought I'd conclude (maybe!) things here. Ive now been riding di2 for a few months and doubt I could go back to mechanical.
The main difference isn't anything to do with shift quality but how accessible and a sense of things being just so that I'm spending all my efforts with maintaining cadence and quality pedal stroke (after a retul fit showed up my lazy left leg).
The game changer for me is the addition of the sprint shifters. Without these I could happily go back to mechanical but I've changed my riding style now it so much more time on the drops due to the sprint shift buttons being a few mm away and makes everything so much more intuitive. I've not used the thumb shifts on the flat section of the bars but again another possible option.

I've had no issues wot so ever (touch wood) with the di2 performance wise apart so a very happy bunny indeed. Winter gloves aren't as obvious as mechanical as the buttons are pretty small and you have pretty much no feedback through the right hand that a shift has occurred.

bernithebiker · April 2015

After resolving some of my initial issues, I'm very happy with how Di2 9070 works. It does change your riding style. I'm convinced I make more shifts now than I used to, so my cadence is better, simply because shifts are so 'press and forget'.

And when you set up high speed multi-shifts, it's even better. Hold the button and for each .25 second (approx) you get one shift. So with practise you can change up or down 3, 4 or 5 gears in one go, perfectly.

And shifts are so seamless, so quiet, you're often not sure if it's actually shifted (it has!). Which is where the gear position indicator on the Garmin comes in useful.

thegreatdivide · April 2015

bernithebiker wrote:

And when you set up high speed multi-shifts, it's even better. Hold the button and for each .25 second (approx) you get one shift. So with practise you can change up or down 3, 4 or 5 gears in one go, perfectly.

Shifting 5 cogs on mechanical Chorus/Record/SR takes a second at the most with one sweep of the lever - it's ridiculously fast. And on EPS you can shift all 11 cogs in 1.5 seconds*

*Only required for showing of to your mates.

brettjmcc · April 2015

Can someone give me some help please. I just went out for my first ride with my Ultegra Di2 and well, loved it.

However reading all of the above, can someone explain the left shifter check or point me to where I can find what any of the LED signals mean on the junction box? The dealer manual has nothing and the documentation that came in the boxes was well, pish. Are there rituals I need to be doing before a ride?

Also, when I was finishing the install and doing the top position adjustment, it just flashed red at me and did nothing (everyting else was fine setting it up). Though it seems not to matter having ridden it. Thanks

bernithebiker · April 2015

brettjmcc wrote:

Can someone give me some help please. I just went out for my first ride with my Ultegra Di2 and well, loved it.

However reading all of the above, can someone explain the left shifter check or point me to where I can find what any of the LED signals mean on the junction box? The dealer manual has nothing and the documentation that came in the boxes was well, pish. Are there rituals I need to be doing before a ride?

Also, when I was finishing the install and doing the top position adjustment, it just flashed red at me and did nothing (everyting else was fine setting it up). Though it seems not to matter having ridden it. Thanks

Briefly push the left lever for a battery check; green solid = full, flashing green 50 - 70%, red = 30-50 and flashing red = almost flat (from memory).

You need to be in big ring up front and big gear in back for the top position fine tuning to work.

brettjmcc · April 2015

bernithebiker wrote:

Briefly push the left lever for a battery check; green solid = full, flashing green 50 - 70%, red = 30-50 and flashing red = almost flat (from memory).

You need to be in big ring up front and big gear in back for the top position fine tuning to work.

Tried the left lever this morning. It just shifted, unless I am doing something wrong.

Yes, I was in the big/big combo

bernithebiker · April 2015

You have to be in adjustment mode first; hold the small button on the junction box down until the red light appears.

bernithebiker · April 2015

Did a quick adjustment to the front mech whilst riding the other day.

What's quite funky is that if you have the gear position sensor, the Garmin goes into mech adjustment mode and displays 3 coordinates for each mech, which I think are low position, high position and trim.

So as you adjust, you can see the coordinates changing on the screen.....

brettjmcc · April 2015

Tried it yesterday. It just flashes red no matter whether I try to trim either way

Bar Shaker · April 2015

Press and hold a shift button to get a battery level display.

Press the button on the junction box to enter indexing mode.

Press and hold the button on the junction box for crash recovery.

If you have a Garmin 1000, it will display the trim co-ordinates.

Di2 owners, once gone electric wont go back?

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