Di2 owners, once gone electric wont go back?

DKay

I can't help but think that some of these people who say that Di2 removes some kind of 'connection' with their bike, have been reading too many car magazines where they bang on incessantly about the demise of the manual gearbox to dual clutch systems and good autos.

Mechnically changing gear on a bike is a pain in the arse compared to Di2, especially when we're talking about front shifts. Unlike a good manual gearbox in a car (where a perfectly executed heel and toe downshift is fun), there is no additonal feeling of mastery or involvement using an indexed mechanical system over Di2. It's just simply, more work.

With mechnical, you pull for a gear and you wait and anticipate the change, hoping that it's a good, clean shift. If it is, then you may have to deal with the seconday hassle of trimming the front mech. With Di2, you press for the gear and it's there immediately, perfectly, every single time and as MRS has said, it just removes the chore of shifting gears and allows you to just get on with the riding. Even if you ever do need to adjust the indexing on a Di2 system (I haven't), then it's a few button presses and it's done. You can do it on the fly in seconds.

Then you introduce such things as multishift, customisable buttons (I have mine in paddleshift mode) and climbing and sprint satellite shifters.

mamba80

meanredspider wrote:

You need to charge every 1000-1500 miles or so. It's incredibly fast. Internal batteries are probably easier to charge using an external port. External batteries click off. I've submerged my battery in floods before now - never once had a battery issue.

There's an indicator with which you can check charge state. Should you forget to charge the battery, the system disables the FD (on the small ring) at which point you have a limited (100-ish?) shifts on the RD in order to "get you home". I deliberately played "charger chicken" on mine and it worked fine. Any Di2 shop will have a charger in the worst case and 20 mins will get you to 50%.

Frankly it's a total non-issue.

that IS the issue though, if you do forget to charge the battery, you miss your club run and/or end up limping home, of course a broken gear cable will do the same but i dont change them every 4 to 6 weeks and they take about 20mins to swop out too and any bike shop will carrry a cable

Shimano have really narrowed the gap with the intro of 6800/9000, (i ve used Di2 on a hire bike and swopped bikes with mates) but as i ve said before, its the FD change that is superior to mech but it doesnt make you any faster and there is a significant price difference, money that could be spent on an upgraded bike, a trip to Mallorca or a prezzie for the wife!

To me its a gimmick but then i dont drive an Automatic car either.

DKay

Considering how long a charge lasts for, if you run out of juice while out on a ride then you deserve to be left stranded (even though you're not actually stranded).

I think it's a myth that 5800, 6800 et al. has narrowed the gap to Di2. I've ridden 6800 and switched to 5800 from 6700 on my other bike, but it still doesn't compare to the speed and ease of the 6870 Di2 on my Foil.

The point of Di2, is not to make you faster, but to make riding more enjoyable and hassle free. I personally think that you can only really appreciate the advantages of Di2 after having it for a while and using it day in, day out.

DeVlaeminck

I prefer a decent mechanical groupset myself - ymmv - luckily there is a choice. Either way I don't see how a small improvement in gearshifting which may or may not exist depending on your view is going to be that fundamental.

meanredspider

mamba80 wrote:

that IS the issue though, if you do forget to charge the battery, you miss your club run and/or end up limping home, of course a broken gear cable will do the same but i dont change them every 4 to 6 weeks and they take about 20mins to swop out too and any bike shop will carrry a cable

Well, of course, if you don't bother checking it then more fool you. I assume you check your tyre pressures before a club run? Ever lube the chain? It takes no longer to top the battery up enough for a club run than it would fix a flat. In the nearly 4 years, I've never had a problem with charge. If you're the sort of person that's very forgetful, buy another battery.

mamba80 wrote:

To me its a gimmick but then i dont drive an Automatic car either.

Well, like your car, your bike will be out of date in a few years. It's a choice of course and entirely up to you.

spatt77

Well, I`ve got Di2 and have to say its flawless, I personally would never go back. There was nowt wrong with my CRT TV, but now I`ve got a 42" plasma i would never go back to CRT, its called progress!

Brailsford Bad

itboffin wrote:

I've ridden di2 two years in a row in Mallorca and have to say I'm not a fan its just another solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Well set up mechanical does what its meant to every time and never has a battery issue or needs resetting mid ride.

As for comparing groupsets I sold my 7800 dura ace mostly because I could tell the difference between that and my 5600 105 once I'd fitted sealed jagwire cables.

Campag mechanical for me everyday, I love how simple to set up and zero maintenance BB bearings excluded.

Im sorry but mechanical DOES NOT do what its meant to every time. Ive got both systems, ive had a lot of mechanical bikes and more time is spent servicing the gears, cables, shifters in a single year than ive ever had to with Di2. Thats just rubbish.
Likewise, resetting midway through a ride??!! What are you talking about? Ive had mine over two years and not once have i had to reset anything. You must be referring to your iPod. :roll:

Brailsford Bad

mamba80 wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

You need to charge every 1000-1500 miles or so. It's incredibly fast. Internal batteries are probably easier to charge using an external port. External batteries click off. I've submerged my battery in floods before now - never once had a battery issue.

There's an indicator with which you can check charge state. Should you forget to charge the battery, the system disables the FD (on the small ring) at which point you have a limited (100-ish?) shifts on the RD in order to "get you home". I deliberately played "charger chicken" on mine and it worked fine. Any Di2 shop will have a charger in the worst case and 20 mins will get you to 50%.

Frankly it's a total non-issue.

that IS the issue though, if you do forget to charge the battery, you miss your club run and/or end up limping home, of course a broken gear cable will do the same but i dont change them every 4 to 6 weeks and they take about 20mins to swop out too and any bike shop will carrry a cable

Shimano have really narrowed the gap with the intro of 6800/9000, (i ve used Di2 on a hire bike and swopped bikes with mates) but as i ve said before, its the FD change that is superior to mech but it doesnt make you any faster and there is a significant price difference, money that could be spent on an upgraded bike, a trip to Mallorca or a prezzie for the wife!

To me its a gimmick but then i dont drive an Automatic car either.

But thats just it, the point you are making is completely irrelevant. "If you forget to charge the battery.." Is no more a reason than.." Forgetting your saddlebag.....forgetting to check tyre pressure...forgetting your glasses...forgetting your water bottles...".
The simple fact is if you own a Di2 bike then you know you have to charge the battery, its an absolute given. Its like saying to a car driver to remember to put petrol in. But having said that you dont have to charge it that often and when you do it charges real quick.
If it was a gimmick then half the pro-peloton wouldnt use it. Also i would debate the speed issue, given the amount of gear changes that are made on any given ride, i would say it mounts up to being faster overall than mechanical, with no hesitation, missed gears or mind worries. Marginal gains all round add up to an overall faster speed, just ask team Sky.

kingstonian

I've had Ultegra Di2 for 6 months, think it is fantastic and will definitely get it on my next bike. Have done 1500km on the bike, charged the battery once after about 700 miles - it didn't really need doing but I wanted to do it just to make sure everything worked etc. Checked the battery when I cleaned my bike a couple of days ago and it still doesn't need doing, quite frankly anyone that finds their battery runs out on a ride is either really unlucky or downright stupid for not checking it.

alanparsons

Fabian Cancellara refuses to use it , so that's a good enough reason for me to stick with DA 9000.

http://roadcyclinguk.com/gear/pro-bike-fabian-cancellaras-trek-domane-classics-edition.html#Ogxf1OCUp0YGeW7W.97

meanredspider

alanparsons wrote:

Fabian Cancellara refuses to use it , so that's a good enough reason for me to stick with DA 9000.

http://roadcyclinguk.com/gear/pro-bike-fabian-cancellaras-trek-domane-classics-edition.html#Ogxf1OCUp0YGeW7W.97

Looks like he's the exception though...

The vast majority of riders on Shimano-sponsored teams in the pro peloton use the Japanese firm's electronic Dura-Ace Di2 groupset, but Cancellara prefers the tactile feel of mechanical Dura-Ace.

yaya

meanredspider wrote:

yaya wrote:

How often do you need to charge the battery in summer/ winter and is that easy to do on the internal batteries? Is there a warning of some sort when it's time for a re-charge?

You need to charge every 1000-1500 miles or so. It's incredibly fast. Internal batteries are probably easier to charge using an external port. External batteries click off. I've submerged my battery in floods before now - never once had a battery issue.

There's an indicator with which you can check charge state. Should you forget to charge the battery, the system disables the FD (on the small ring) at which point you have a limited (100-ish?) shifts on the RD in order to "get you home". I deliberately played "charger chicken" on mine and it worked fine. Any Di2 shop will have a charger in the worst case and 20 mins will get you to 50%.

Frankly it's a total non-issue.

This sounds very good! My question comes from wanting my next bike (possibly in the spring) to have both hydraulic disc brakes AND Di2, but since all new bikes that come with both are out of my reach I will probably be settling on "either or" so am trying to choose the technology that is more mature and hassle free. I like tinkering when there's time and when needed but not when it means being stranded or not being able to ride when I want to...(I do have an MTB as well though...)

VmanF3

I really don't care. I have both. Di2 is great, but then so is mechanical. It's not a big deal. Most of my riding is just for fun, Di2 doesn't particulary make it better, but it does work well. Mechanical works well too, as it has done for years. I don't get anywhere faster on balance with Di2, it's just easier (fractionally).

I was a photographer once upon a time, when film was king and it took skill, judgement, money, time and a completely different skill set to digital. I hated digital - until my daughter arrived and I could take thousands of photos for 'free'.

Times move on, things change - let them that embrace new ideas, run with it, chances are that eventually we'll all come to love it. And it's still ok to ride penny farthings if that's what floats your boat.

I don't understand the gripes folk have - it's almost as bad as 'relic' debates on guitar forums. Why people get so upset about what other people do with their money is beyond me.

meanredspider

VmanF3 wrote:

Why people get so upset about what other people do with their money is beyond me.

Yes, cost is the only real criticism that can be levelled at Di2 (especially now that it's actually lighter than it's mech equivalent). "Feel" is totally subjective and something that you get used to - for me, it's a huge advantage of Di2 (twitch a finger and you've changed gear) but, for others, it's a reason not to get it. So the only angle is to criticise the cost.

Bozman

meanredspider wrote:

VmanF3 wrote:

Why people get so upset about what other people do with their money is beyond me.

Yes, cost is the only real criticism that can be levelled at Di2 (especially now that it's actually lighter than it's mech equivalent). "Feel" is totally subjective and something that you get used to - for me, it's a huge advantage of Di2 (twitch a finger and you've changed gear) but, for others, it's a reason not to get it. So the only angle is to criticise the cost.

I wouldn't say that cost is the only criticism, what about the look because the derailleurs are poor aesthetically. The front mech looks like half a brick perched precariously above the chainset, folk spend 3k on a beautiful frame and then they cover it in crap.

bikes`n`guns

Hmm. interesting.

So,, so far, we have that it`s too quiet, and "performance is not that impressive" as it`s only marginally faster and more precise that Dura Ace ! hahahahaha

Brilliant.


Just get it, it`s the future, and it works brilliantly

meanredspider

Bozman wrote:

folk spend 3k on a beautiful frame and then they cover it in crap.

Too funny - as I said, other reasons are entirely subjective...

thegreatdivide

I've got Record EPS on my C59. Does it make the riding experience better? Yes - it makes the bike sound like RoboCop and it makes me feel dead sexy. That’s a WIN all round then!

meanredspider

thegreatdivide wrote:

I've got Record EPS on my C59. Does it make the riding experience better? Yes - it makes the bike sound like RoboCop and it makes me feel dead sexy. That’s a WIN all round then!

Yes - the FD on my Ultegra Di2 turns heads 8)

Yellow Peril

thegreatdivide wrote:

I've got Record EPS on my C59. Does it make the riding experience better? Yes - it makes the bike sound like RoboCop and it makes me feel dead sexy. That’s a WIN all round then!

I've got a bottom bracket that squeaks like that

Brailsford Bad

Bozman wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

VmanF3 wrote:

Why people get so upset about what other people do with their money is beyond me.

Yes, cost is the only real criticism that can be levelled at Di2 (especially now that it's actually lighter than it's mech equivalent). "Feel" is totally subjective and something that you get used to - for me, it's a huge advantage of Di2 (twitch a finger and you've changed gear) but, for others, it's a reason not to get it. So the only angle is to criticise the cost.

I wouldn't say that cost is the only criticism, what about the look because the derailleurs are poor aesthetically. The front mech looks like half a brick perched precariously above the chainset, folk spend 3k on a beautiful frame and then they cover it in crap.

You often find with the Di2 bashers that they move through a series of arguments, none of which hold much weight, until they finally realise theres nothing bad about Di2 at all. Its just they either cant embrace it or cant afford it.

The last throw of the dice tends to be "looks". You know once they lose the 'weight' battle or the 'cost' battle their last resort is 'looks'

The looks argument always cracks me up. Its the final scrape of the barrel. So lets talk about looks.

Simple question, how many of us riding a bike go along thinking ' i hope my rear derailleur 'looks' good.....i hope no ones 'looking' at my front derailleur'...is that guy on the other side of the road 'looking' at my gearset....ooohhhhh
Anyone???

Thought not.

Total, non-argument. I can only think that people who mention looks when putting Di2 down, are the sort of people who must own the latest, flashiest bike/gear/kit...but only manage a 10mph average speed, because they are too busy wondering if anyone is 'looking' at them.

:roll:

NeXXus

Brailsford Bad wrote:

Bozman wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

VmanF3 wrote:

Why people get so upset about what other people do with their money is beyond me.

Yes, cost is the only real criticism that can be levelled at Di2 (especially now that it's actually lighter than it's mech equivalent). "Feel" is totally subjective and something that you get used to - for me, it's a huge advantage of Di2 (twitch a finger and you've changed gear) but, for others, it's a reason not to get it. So the only angle is to criticise the cost.

I wouldn't say that cost is the only criticism, what about the look because the derailleurs are poor aesthetically. The front mech looks like half a brick perched precariously above the chainset, folk spend 3k on a beautiful frame and then they cover it in crap.

You often find with the Di2 bashers that they move through a series of arguments, none of which hold much weight, until they finally realise theres nothing bad about Di2 at all. Its just they either cant embrace it or cant afford it.

The last throw of the dice tends to be "looks". You know once they lose the 'weight' battle or the 'cost' battle their last resort is 'looks'

The looks argument always cracks me up. Its the final scrape of the barrel. So lets talk about looks.

Simple question, how many of us riding a bike go along thinking ' i hope my rear derailleur 'looks' good.....i hope no ones 'looking' at my front derailleur'...is that guy on the other side of the road 'looking' at my gearset....ooohhhhh
Anyone???

Thought not.

Total, non-argument. I can only think that people who mention looks when putting Di2 down, are the sort of people who must own the latest, flashiest bike/gear/kit...but only manage a 10mph average speed, because they are too busy wondering if anyone is 'looking' at them.

:roll:

A lot of the same people make dumb arguments with Tiagra/105 - Ultegra/DA mechanical groupsets, and they're largely wrong there too.

Bozman

I can't see the price being an issue you can pick the kits up cheap enough, some folk just don't like it but the Di2 users really don't like it when someone has a negative view.

meanredspider

Bozman wrote:

I can't see the price being an issue you can pick the kits up cheap enough, some folk just don't like it but the Di2 users really don't like it when someone has a negative view.

I don't mind it being based upon fact or clearly stated as a matter of taste but it's the spurious arguments that I don't like. Words like "gimmick" and "a solution to a problem that doesn't exist" are nonsense and just reveal a prejudice.

DeVlaeminck

Not at all - it reveals that some people don't think mechanical shifting limits their riding in any way. At the same time just because your experience of Di2 has been that it is flawless that hasn't been the experience of everyone - I saw a mate knocked out when his Di2 slipped a gear while he was sprinting out of the saddle, Dean Downing broke a collar bone in a similar incident with Di2 - of course these things can happen with mechanical but if they can also happen with Di2 some people will feel there is no real advance there.

meanredspider

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Not at all - it reveals that some people don't think mechanical shifting limits their riding in any way. At the same time just because your experience of Di2 has been that it is flawless that hasn't been the experience of everyone - I saw a mate knocked out when his Di2 slipped a gear while he was sprinting out of the saddle, Dean Downing broke a collar bone in a similar incident with Di2 - of course these things can happen with mechanical but if they can also happen with Di2 some people will feel there is no real advance there.

I don't get the point. Because YOU feel mechanical shifting doesn't limit your ride at all, why does that make Di2 a gimmick? I never felt that 105 limited my riding - does that make DA, Ultegra, Red etc a "gimmick"? It's the language that exposes the prejudice.

I'm not really sure about your second point. Di2 doesn't overcome ALL of the limitations of derailleur gearing - I don't think anyone pretended it did. What it does do is:
- repeatably carry out accurate RD changes with no need to adjust for cable stretch or wear.
- allows for "on the fly" initial indexing
- allows for easier "under-load" shifting
- automatically trims the FD according to RD position
- makes for effort-free shifting (especially on FD upshifts)
- is customisable for lever operation (multi shifts, LtoR swapping etc)
- allows for multiple remote shifting buttons (sprinting switches, Tri-bars etc etc)
- freedom from icing up issues
- "crash protection" for RD to minimise risk of hanger damage
- easy gear-selection capture in bike computers
- provides a weight reduction on 11 speed systems
- simplifies hydraulic brifters
- future capability for auto shifting etc etc

Now, none of those things might interest you and that's fine but there are real advantages amongst those to many people.

In the meantime I still have several bikes using traditional gearing and they're OK too.

mamba80

MRS why does it bother you sooooo very much that people dont always agree with you over Di2 ?
Its not important, even Shimano and Campag recognise this and stil spend a fortune investing in top end mechanical shifting and because their latest mech grp sets offer near effortless shifting the reasons to buy Di2 have deminished.

but its christmas and i hope you and family have a great xmas and continue to have trouble free electronic gear changes for many years to come.

DeVlaeminck

MRS - I never mentioned it being a gimmick - having tried it I just don't like the lack of feel and I think the advantages are either marginal at best or not something I care about.

Take your list above - the only one that would interest me is better shifting under load say in a sprint - set against that is the greater expense, what I consider a lack of feel and the issues with charging and increased complexity of the system.

As for auto shifting - I'd be amazed if that ever happens at least while we are using a system that relies on a chain and individual sprockets - far too many drawbacks and no advantages.

yaya

Anyway I just tested Santa this link http://shop.edelrad.de/en/bmc/846-bmc-granfondo-gf01-duraace-di2-team-red-2014.html#/frame_size-54cm I hope his smartphone is charged...

meanredspider

mamba80 wrote:

MRS why does it bother you sooooo very much that people dont always agree with you over Di2 ?
Its not important, even Shimano and Campag recognise this and stil spend a fortune investing in top end mechanical shifting and because their latest mech grp sets offer near effortless shifting the reasons to buy Di2 have deminished.

but its christmas and i hope you and family have a great xmas and continue to have trouble free electronic gear changes for many years to come.

Plenty of my riding mates don't agree with me on Di2. But they stick to facts so it's no bother. With both Di2 and disc brakes there's so much rubbish spouted - I don't get it. But Campag and Shimano realise that cyclists are a conservative lot and are incredibly slow to adopt technology - they'll be making mechanical groupsets for years.

And, really, it doesn't bother me anything like as much as it appears - I'm just bored and haven't unwound from work yet.

I wish you and yours a fabulous Xmas too!