Di2 owners, once gone electric wont go back?

meanredspider

That's useful to know. I've thought about internal batteries but figured they are possibly more trouble than they are worth to me.

BTW - you can use a Mac but you need VMWARE to pretend to be a PC

paul2718

I've never had a problem with Di2. But when I first updated the system it asked me to disconnect various bits before updating others. I wonder if berni ran into some issue along these lines.

It shouldn't be this difficult, but it's now a mass market product and reports of catastrophe remain relatively unusual. Perhaps the lesson is to not update firmware....

Paul

flasher

Seriously, riding a bike just shouldn't be this much trouble.

neeb

vermin wrote:

The feeling of utter helplessness is a reflection on you; not on the system. As a member of the population as a whole, you are in a tiny minority that would look at a mechanical gear system, see what's going on, work out where the problem is and cobble together a solution.

I don't agree. I mean, how technically adept do you need to be to understand the concept of a lever that pulls a cable that moves a device against the force of a spring? You could give a fully mechanical bike to a hunter gatherer 100,000 years ago, and while they would be astounded by the materials and the ingenuity, they could figure out exactly how it works, and, given a bit of time, probably fix it if it went wrong. That's one of the attractive aspects of a bicycle that's unfortunately lost when you start shifting parts of the basic functionality to electronics. I'm not opposed to electronic shifting per se, the advantages may easily be more important to many people than that aesthetic/mechanical integrity element, but once you go down that path you are starting ever so slightly to change the nature of what a bicycle is.

mamba80

every time i read a post like Bernies, it postpones the day i d "upgrade" to di2
i work in IT and s/w is constantly evolving and as fast as new firm/software is introduced new issues arrive, esp with compatable hardware, take the various versions of microsoft os for example.
also, the lack of knowledge of fault finding on di2 might well be that your avg bike mechanic hasnt the background in electronic diagnosis, di2 has been around a few years now.
certainly when i ve had issues (electronic) on my car, it tends to be a case of swop out until the problem goes, not all faults show up in diags.
to have s/w that only works on a pc is rather remiss, again showing that this stuff is designed to be used in a workshop enviroment only and not by your average punter or smaller bike shop.

Having said all that, a mate who works at evans, says they have v few issues with di2, carry no stock and that madison are v good with warranty.

meanredspider

It's funny though: there's a guy who has modified his system and it hasn't been a total doddle. From this, you'd have thought no-one ever comes on this forum with bike modification issues - least of all gear shifting issues. There are never any threads on people with indexing issues, or questions about parts compatibility or needing to go to the bike shop for a tool. There's no other part of a bike which needs "electricity" or batteries and certainly not software. Power meters, GPS systems and those new fangle things called lights...

True, it should/could be easier. But so should BB standards. And the point made earlier is correct: it's just our lack of knowledge. You could even draw parallels with wheel building. But, for whatever reason, people seem very suspicious of Di2.

sloppyschleckonds

On a side note, has anyone seen a better deal than Ribble that the Dura Ace 9070 shifting kit?

TIA

DKay

Opinion from the Tour of Dubai.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjiieeKiZfk

Bar Shaker

Berni I don't know where you find these problems. We have two Di2 bikes, both using EWW01 units and neither using the latest software. This is deliberate as we are using 6870 rear mechs and our original 6770 front mechs. This is all with no issues.

The EWW01 units worked out of the box, albeit after a few minutes to come alive and pair on first use.

I do have the PC diagnostic box but we both have external batteries. Since upgrading to the 11sp rear mechs, I haven't used it again and doubt I will.

Whilst getting it set up right may have been a faff, the universal thing about Di2 is that it then runs trouble free, every day. This is one of the big attractions for the pro teams, as shown in DKay's video, above.

desweller

Do Shimano provide tables of firmware versions + hardware versions that will work together? I imagine that would be a real handy table.

Fishboyz

As the troublesome OP owner just a quick update..

I have sat in front of me ultegra Di2 kit, I've swapped the chainset and brakes though to dura ace. So far as I'm waiting on bits (and the weather isn't great) I've routed the internal wires and the 4-wy junction box in the BB. No issues apart from done it twice as decided to attach zip ties around all but the front mech wire. I had great fun with the internal battery into the pro vibe post, mainly due to zero instructions from pro and that horrible circle clip...was dammed to spend money on circle clip pliers for a 3 second job :-(

DKay

Wrap the battery in foam packing and stuff it into the seatpost.

meanredspider

Interesting how positive the team mechs and most of the riders are about electronic shifting. In particular, the mechanics saying how much better it is for reliability on the Spring Classics

DKay

meanredspider wrote:

Interesting how positive the team mechs and most of the riders are about electronic shifting. In particular, the mechanics saying how much better it is for reliability on the Spring Classics

* Waits for the inevitable comments of; "but they would say that as....." *

flasher

But they would say that wouldn't they

Just as I would if I was riding around on a free S Works Tarmac, Di2 and Zipps.

mrushton

Yet both Cancellara and Nibali remain on mechanical versions of their respective groupsets.

DKay

And they're very much in the tiny minority.

neeb

It does pretty much prove however that any performance differences relevant to competition are negligible at best (at least for these types of riders - maybe for sprinters there's a marginal gain). So it's a matter of preference, not a complete game changer.

DKay

neeb wrote:

It does pretty much prove however that any performance differences relevant to competition are negligible at best (at least for these types of riders - maybe for sprinters there's a marginal gain). So it's a matter of preference, not a complete game changer.

To me and the vast majority of Di2 users, the advantage isn't about making you faster as that's just silly. It's about having quicker, perfect, effortless, reliable shifting, time and time again. You only notice just how good Di2 is, until you're ridden it for a decent length of time, day-in, day-out and then switch back to mechanical. The latest mechanical groupsets are very good too, but Di2 is even better.

neeb

DKay wrote:

neeb wrote:

It does pretty much prove however that any performance differences relevant to competition are negligible at best (at least for these types of riders - maybe for sprinters there's a marginal gain). So it's a matter of preference, not a complete game changer.

To me and the vast majority of Di2 users, the advantage isn't about making you faster as that's just silly. It's about having quicker, perfect, effortless, reliable shifting, time and time again. You only notice just how good Di2 is, until you're ridden it for a decent length of time, day-in, day-out and then switch back to mechanical. The latest mechanical groupsets are very good too, but Di2 is even better.

Just saying that the current top-end mechanical groups are quick enough, effortless enough and reliable enough for it not to matter that much. If they were slow, energy-consuming and unreliable, no-one who needed every slight advantage available would use them, but some do. No-one racing today would use non-indexed downtube shifters, because indexed STIs offer really significant advantages in ease of use and that impacts indirectly on overall performance. I'm not going to argue that electronic shifting necessarily isn't "better", but it isn't better enough for it to be that important or to make it unreasonable for some people not to prefer it.

Re: the whole thing about using Di2 and then going back to mechanical and realising how good Di2 is - this is just the usual process of adaptation, you notice the difference and attach more significance to it because you have become adapted to pressing buttons instead of levers and the process of using levers has become less familiar at the muscle-memory level. Sure, the difference is real, but it's not as major as it seems when you suddenly switch from one to the other.

Bar Shaker

I have set my buttons up in 'paddle shift' format. If I used mechanicals again, I suspect I would have to re-learn the layout.

richiegwy

DKay wrote:

And they're very much in the tiny minority.

I think there are more using mechanical in the pro tuor this year. Check out most of the Cannondale team at the minute and there are some other campag riders using mechanical

Bar Shaker

richiegwy wrote:

DKay wrote:

And they're very much in the tiny minority.

I think there are more using mechanical in the pro tuor this year. Check out most of the Cannondale team at the minute and there are some other campag riders using mechanical

Indeed, I heard there were now 12 pros using mechanicals.

Some pretty unhappy riders out there.

meanredspider

neeb wrote:

Re: the whole thing about using Di2 and then going back to mechanical and realising how good Di2 is - this is just the usual process of adaptation, you notice the difference and attach more significance to it because you have become adapted to pressing buttons instead of levers and the process of using levers has become less familiar at the muscle-memory level. Sure, the difference is real, but it's not as major as it seems when you suddenly switch from one to the other.

You can try to argue that but I run both types and run them side-by-side (negating any "muscle memory" effects). What it does, in particular, is highlight the differences - especially in FD shifts: Di2 is tap and forget - the shift will happen. Shifting in Di2 becomes almost subliminal - you stop thinking about it almost completely. I think it's funny when people talk about the lack of feedback - that really is muscle memory - touchscreens must drive these people mad. For sure, there's not really any significant performance advantage (though Cav obviously loves his sprint shifters) except maybe the ability to shift under load which has got me out of trouble a couple of times when riding an unfamiliar route and taking a sharp turn only to be confronted with a steep slope I wasn't expecting (there's one such turn on the Etape Caledonia which always gets plenty of spectators because lots of people, caught unawares, have to stop or even fall off). For me, though, it's just an improved riding experience and I've never had the occasional type of day I've had on mechanical where the shifting plays up due to drag on the cable (dirt, ice etc). Mechanical shifting will continue in the same way that mechanical typewriters did/do.

Bar Shaker

The whole Di2 FD shifting in incomparable to mechanical.

The mech cage shifts beyond the big ring to pull the chain across and straight onto the teeth. After sitting there for a couple of seconds, it then returns to the perfectly trimmed position, based on the cog you are using on the rear cassette.

This is a performance advantage.

Similarly, you can press and hold for a 3 cog cassette shift at the same time as a chain ring change, giving near perfect ratio swaps between the two chain rings if you are in the lower 30% band of the cassette.

There is so much more to Di2 than saving finger muscle.

neeb

But shifting nowadays isn't a big deal however you do it. Electronic key passes are a much better and more efficient way to open and lock doors, but I'm quite happy with an old-fashioned key for my front door..

Grill

TBH for the most part on a road bike 6800 and 9000 are every bit as good as 6870 and 9070. The exceptions to this is when your run satellite shifters (either for sprinting or climbing/cobbles).

Now when it comes to TT bikes, Di2 have a ridiculous advantage over their mechanical counterparts. I hate riding my training TT bike just because it's mechanical.

ai_1

Grill wrote:

...Now when it comes to TT bikes, Di2 have a ridiculous advantage over their mechanical counterparts. I hate riding my training TT bike just because it's mechanical.

Is this mostly because of the ability to put shifters at both hand positions not just the extensions or because TT mechaincal shifters are poor compared to STI? I haven't used TT shifters so I don't know.

Grill

Ai_1 wrote:

Grill wrote:

...Now when it comes to TT bikes, Di2 have a ridiculous advantage over their mechanical counterparts. I hate riding my training TT bike just because it's mechanical.

Is this mostly because of the ability to put shifters at both hand positions not just the extensions or because TT mechaincal shifters are poor compared to STI? I haven't used TT shifters so I don't know.

Having shifters on the bull horns is the biggest reason (during a race being able to come off the aero bars on tight turns or roundabouts and get in the appropriate gear is huge), but also not having to deal with indexing the front mech is great.

saftlad

neeb wrote:

But shifting nowadays isn't a big deal however you do it. Electronic key passes are a much better and more efficient way to open and lock doors, but I'm quite happy with an old-fashioned key for my front door..

True, but try walking in and out of your front door every 30 seconds, locking and unlocking it, for 3-4 hours and the happiness would soon wear off