Di2 owners, once gone electric wont go back?

ugo.santalucia

The reasons why I do not contemplate electronic shifting

1) being constantly surrounded by electronics, it is refreshing to spend some time away from them... although if you use a Garmin, that defies the point partially.. I don't.

2) soft touch gears won't be ideal over rough terrain or cobbles, difficult to press once if you wish to do so

3) Electronics have a habit of going wrong without an apparent reason. I am not saying they are less reliable, I am saying if they go wrong it might not be clear why... being a fettler, I do not like that

4) It is not obvious what you are actually upgrading... everything is the same, except you are buying into a planned obsolence scheme. We all know electronics are designed to be superseeded, not to last and I do not like that.

5) The novelty of a soft click that actuates an electric motor is likely to wear fast, just in the same way as electric windows did in cars... except those were marginally more useful... if I could save money by doing so, I'd get a car with manual windows every day

Fishboyz

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The reasons why I do not contemplate electronic shifting

1) being constantly surrounded by electronics, it is refreshing to spend some time away from them... although if you use a Garmin, that defies the point partially.. I don't.

2) soft touch gears won't be ideal over rough terrain or cobbles, difficult to press once if you wish to do so

3) Electronics have a habit of going wrong without an apparent reason. I am not saying they are less reliable, I am saying if they go wrong it might not be clear why... being a fettler, I do not like that

4) It is not obvious what you are actually upgrading... everything is the same, except you are buying into a planned obsolence scheme. We all know electronics are designed to be superseeded, not to last and I do not like that.

5) The novelty of a soft click that actuates an electric motor is likely to wear fast, just in the same way as electric windows did in cars... except those were marginally more useful... if I could save money by doing so, I'd get a car with manual windows every day

Disagree with all of that with the possibility of 5) yup motors go tits up

sloppyschleckonds

Fishboyz wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The reasons why I do not contemplate electronic shifting

1) being constantly surrounded by electronics, it is refreshing to spend some time away from them... although if you use a Garmin, that defies the point partially.. I don't.

2) soft touch gears won't be ideal over rough terrain or cobbles, difficult to press once if you wish to do so

3) Electronics have a habit of going wrong without an apparent reason. I am not saying they are less reliable, I am saying if they go wrong it might not be clear why... being a fettler, I do not like that

4) It is not obvious what you are actually upgrading... everything is the same, except you are buying into a planned obsolence scheme. We all know electronics are designed to be superseeded, not to last and I do not like that.

5) The novelty of a soft click that actuates an electric motor is likely to wear fast, just in the same way as electric windows did in cars... except those were marginally more useful... if I could save money by doing so, I'd get a car with manual windows every day

Disagree with all of that with the possibility of 5) yup motors go tits up

Care to substantiate your disagreement as they all seem valid reasons?

ai_1

Fishboyz wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The reasons why I do not contemplate electronic shifting

1) being constantly surrounded by electronics, it is refreshing to spend some time away from them... although if you use a Garmin, that defies the point partially.. I don't.

2) soft touch gears won't be ideal over rough terrain or cobbles, difficult to press once if you wish to do so

3) Electronics have a habit of going wrong without an apparent reason. I am not saying they are less reliable, I am saying if they go wrong it might not be clear why... being a fettler, I do not like that

4) It is not obvious what you are actually upgrading... everything is the same, except you are buying into a planned obsolence scheme. We all know electronics are designed to be superseeded, not to last and I do not like that.

5) The novelty of a soft click that actuates an electric motor is likely to wear fast, just in the same way as electric windows did in cars... except those were marginally more useful... if I could save money by doing so, I'd get a car with manual windows every day

Disagree with all of that with the possibility of 5) yup motors go tits up

I think there a lot of validity in Ugo's points. No 1 doesn't really bother me but I understand it. For me running is the no-gadget activity (but I still tend to bring a Garmin watch). I think 2 and 3 are fair points though they would rarely effect me. 4 and 5 I wouldn't entirely agree with but I wouldn't call it nonsense either.
Having said that I may well try Di2 in the future. I'm neither strongly for or against electronic gears. Is it mandatory to pick a camp on all things cycling or can I have mixed views on stuff?

DKay

ugo.santalucia wrote:

The reasons why I do not contemplate electronic shifting

1) being constantly surrounded by electronics, it is refreshing to spend some time away from them... although if you use a Garmin, that defies the point partially.. I don't.

2) soft touch gears won't be ideal over rough terrain or cobbles, difficult to press once if you wish to do so

3) Electronics have a habit of going wrong without an apparent reason. I am not saying they are less reliable, I am saying if they go wrong it might not be clear why... being a fettler, I do not like that

4) It is not obvious what you are actually upgrading... everything is the same, except you are buying into a planned obsolence scheme. We all know electronics are designed to be superseeded, not to last and I do not like that.

5) The novelty of a soft click that actuates an electric motor is likely to wear fast, just in the same way as electric windows did in cars... except those were marginally more useful... if I could save money by doing so, I'd get a car with manual windows every day

1) Fair dos. Each to their own.

2) On rough terrain or cobbles, I would think that the ability to change gear with a button press instead of a lever sweep and keep your hands securely on the bars at all times would be more favourable. Also, you can ride on the tops and change gear using a satellite climbing shifter.

3) Fair comment, although Di2 is generally very, very reliable. Issues with it are usually solved quite easily.

4) Shimano mechnical 7900, 6700 and 5700 have been made obsolete by mechnical 9000, 6800 and 5800. Di2 seems to last ok so far.

5) Calling Di2 a novelty is a bit harsh. Also, having all round electric windows is a real boon. For instance, on my daily drive commute, I go past a factory on the A1 which pumps out noxious odours. I'm able to crack both rear windows down an inch and vent the smells out, but not get blasted by freezing winter air. Couldn't really do the same with wind down windows.

ugo.santalucia

DKay wrote:

4) Shimano mechnical 7900, 6700 and 5700 have been made obsolete by mechnical 9000, 6800 and 5800. Di2 seems to last ok so far.

Not really... they use the same cables and the fact that you run 10 speed doesn't prevent you from finding the spares you need. You can keep running your 5700 for another 5 years minimum, probably a lot longer. It seems to me Di2 is the first step to accelerate the process of rendering parts obsolete. By obsolete I don't mean something that is not the latest thing, I mean something that no longer works because it is unsupported by software/hardware etc... bit like trying to run the new Windows on a 4 years old computer. I think it's made for folks who like to keep a bike for a couple of years and then move on to the next new thing... not for folks who enjoy to keep a bike for 10 years and replace single components when they fail or when you want to upgrade them. I also wonder what is the second hand value of an electronic group set... second hand electronics are typically worthless... a 7800 group set can still be sold for decent money

Grill

ugo.santalucia wrote:

DKay wrote:

4) Shimano mechnical 7900, 6700 and 5700 have been made obsolete by mechnical 9000, 6800 and 5800. Di2 seems to last ok so far.

Not really... they use the same cables and the fact that you run 10 speed doesn't prevent you from finding the spares you need. You can keep running your 5700 for another 5 years minimum, probably a lot longer. It seems to me Di2 is the first step to accelerate the process of rendering parts obsolete. By obsolete I don't mean something that is not the latest thing, I mean something that no longer works because it is unsupported by software/hardware etc... bit like trying to run the new Windows on a 4 years old computer. I think it's made for folks who like to keep a bike for a couple of years and then move on to the next new thing... not for folks who enjoy to keep a bike for 10 years and replace single components when they fail or when you want to upgrade them. I also wonder what is the second hand value of an electronic group set... second hand electronics are typically worthless... a 7800 group set can still be sold for decent money

I only agree with this to a certain extent. 7970 was indeed rendered obsolete very quickly, but with the advent of etubes Di2 it's fairly future-proof. Of course not to the extent of mechanical, but it already has enough penetration so that you'll be able to service and buy spares in 10 years time.

flasher

You think, a friend of mine waited nearly 2 months for a replacement Ultegra Di2 10 speed FD, seems they're not made any longer and no one has stock.

It was however one of the ugliest group sets I've ever seen, little wonder even Shimano have turned their back on it!

Grill

6770 FD's are easy to source, although not from a warranty side. The advantage to etubes is you can use a 6870 FD if the 6770 can't be sourced.

robbo2011

Grill wrote:

6770 FD's are easy to source, although not from a warranty side. The advantage to etubes is you can use a 6870 FD if the 6770 can't be sourced.

And what happens when they introduce the etubes MKII system in a couple of years? the same problem, surely.

I think Ugo makes some valid points (apart from electric windows which are genuinely useful), although I am fairly agnostic on Di2. If people like it then great. i can't see myself buying a bike equipped with one in the near future though.

ugo.santalucia

Compatibility: I have experimented enough with mechanical parts to come to the conclusion that everything is compatible if you want it to be and nothing is obsolete. I have ran STI levers with a 1951 Campagnolo Gran Sport rear Derailleur and it works, more or less. With electronics the ball is in the manufacturer's hands, they can decide to introduce a derailleur that only recognises one type of cassette and sell it as an upgrade (smoother, quicker, more precise shifting, gets the girls aroused etc.). I don't want to buy in their program, as just like computers you will be forced to upgrade every 3 years or so. They can and they will make sure that nothing new is compatible with anything old and you need an electronic engineer to make things work... I am not one... :?

Electronic is here to stay, but it won't take over the world... I can see myself being perfectly catered for with mechanical in my lifetime

ex-pat scot

I'm with Ugo, except for the Garmin. Even with that, I'm ambivalent.

I like the fact that all my kit on my many many bikes is interchangeable (as long as I pair the Shimano shifters and rear mech; same with SRAM).
I plan on using my 10 speed stuff pretty much forever. (or until I can no longer get decent range 10 speed cassettes and chains)

look565wong

Di2 Owner, once gone electric I DID go back!

I have just sold my Di2 Ultegra setup (& my Di2 specific frame set too) and have yet to find a new frame replacement for my summer bike. But I have already bought my self the new 2015 Campag Record grouppo ready & waiting for my next purchase

Prior to owning my Di2 spec bike I was running mechanical Campag Record (summer) & Veloce (winter bike) and have been doing so for 7 or so years. I had no trouble with it & I loved every minute of it.

Getting the Di2 bike was the need for a wee change, to try something "new" & to see what all the fuss was about (I was a real sceptic at first when it came out) When I got it, I was no disappointed, it worked great with effectless changes & it even sound quite good too (if it sounds anything at all) the whirling of the motor. I actually think I change gears more when on the Di2 bike than my mechanical winter bike (but thats probably due to different riding conditions)

However, I have decided to move back to mechanical simply because I still much prefer the feel of cable operated bike (especially Campag). My view is that part of the "spirit" of the bicycle was that it's meant to be human powered. Charging my bike via a socket just doesn't seem right to me, and I want to get back some of that original "spirit".

Who knows, I might miss my Di2 when I'm "clunking" about in my new Record 11speed equipped bike but I'm told (again) its bloody good Well, at least the new Rear Mech looks absolutely gorgeous (shame I can't see it when I'm riding)

P.S Just my own opinions/preference really, not saying one is better/worse than the other!

Ugo, the new 2015 11s Chorus, Record & SR gear-set apparently are not compatible with pre 2015 11s (according to Campag) do you fancy given it a try? I would be interested to know if thats really true or not! :shock:

Cheers

Grill

robbo2011 wrote:

Grill wrote:

6770 FD's are easy to source, although not from a warranty side. The advantage to etubes is you can use a 6870 FD if the 6770 can't be sourced.

And what happens when they introduce the etubes MKII system in a couple of years? the same problem, surely.

I think Ugo makes some valid points (apart from electric windows which are genuinely useful), although I am fairly agnostic on Di2. If people like it then great. i can't see myself buying a bike equipped with one in the near future though.

There is no need to introduce a new standard of etubes as there is nothing a 'MKII' could offer that couldn't be implemented in the current standard with firmware upgrades. Besides, if you look at the trend it's towards wireless and the fact that it hasn't been seen in the pro peloton means it's a minimum of 5 years away. Don't underestimate the cost to the developers of such technologies. Shimano are very good at sticking with standards, especially when they're heavily vested in them.

thegreatdivide

Look565wong wrote:

Ugo, the new 2015 11s Chorus, Record & SR gear-set apparently are not compatible with pre 2015 11s (according to Campag) do you fancy given it a try? I would be interested to know if thats really true or not!

It's the front mech/left shifter that's not compatible. The rear mech/right shifter still does the same job as the old one albeit the rear mech is meant to shift a bit more smoothly.

If you go back to electronic and love Campagnolo get Record EPS.

meanredspider

Cyclists are a funny lot really. If I read the theme to a lot of the stuff above, one of the messages that comes through is: "If you buy Di2, you'll be forced to buy some shiny new kit from time-to-time" Holey Moley, that's all cyclists ever seem to do anyway I've lost count of the threads where people have upgrade groupsets, saddles, etc As for clothing and wheels, don't get me started! There will be a ready market for the older Di2 gear as some people eek out an extra few years from their aging groupset so that isn't an issue either.

The sooner the broader cycling community just accepts Di2 (and disc brakes) is just another option rather that something "different" the sooner the conversations will be a little more constructive and mature (ok, maybe that last bit isn't much of an ambition )

ugo.santalucia

Grill wrote:

robbo2011 wrote:

Grill wrote:

6770 FD's are easy to source, although not from a warranty side. The advantage to etubes is you can use a 6870 FD if the 6770 can't be sourced.

And what happens when they introduce the etubes MKII system in a couple of years? the same problem, surely.

I think Ugo makes some valid points (apart from electric windows which are genuinely useful), although I am fairly agnostic on Di2. If people like it then great. i can't see myself buying a bike equipped with one in the near future though.

There is no need to introduce a new standard of etubes as there is nothing a 'MKII' could offer that couldn't be implemented in the current standard with firmware upgrades. Besides, if you look at the trend it's towards wireless and the fact that it hasn't been seen in the pro peloton means it's a minimum of 5 years away. Don't underestimate the cost to the developers of such technologies. Shimano are very good at sticking with standards, especially when they're heavily vested in them.

Yes, but you know this is not the way businesss works. Customers would like to keep the stuff that works, so manufacturers have to come up with innovative ideas to make the customers get rid of the stuff. Electronics are great because obsolescence can be easily and deliberately implemented. After all, the concept was invented by the "electrics" industry well before electronics.

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Yes, but you know this is not the way businesss works. Customers would like to keep the stuff that works, so manufacturers have to come up with innovative ideas to make the customers get rid of the stuff. Electronics are great because obsolescence can be easily and deliberately implemented. After all, the concept was invented by the "electrics" industry well before electronics.

I think you're going to see far less of this. Governments are (rightly) cracking down on it - not least of all because of the environmental impact of millions (billions?) of mobile phones, white goods, and other electronics being disposed of too frequently. I believe that planned obsolescence will actually become broadly illegal where it isn't already. The circular economy is also another concept being widely discussed where you might lease products rather than buy them so that they can be recycled or refurbished.

apreading

There is something 'special' about the synergy of man and [mechanical] machine. This is similar to what many find attracts them to steam trains and exquisite clocks etc.

Especially in an era where we are constantly frustrated by having to deal with the quirks of modern electronic technology, user interfaces and operating systems, it is sometimes nice to get back to basics and the purity of mechanical - something that you know how it works and can see and feel it working.

My cycling is partly an escape from technology, into the open landscape and a perfectly functioning mechanical device is part of what makes the experience for me.

Of course, I hate it when this mechanical thing goes wrong but at least I can see and work out what went wrong and how to fix it - unlike an electronic device which while it may require less work to keep it working properly, when it goes wrong is very frustrating and usually involves a complete replacement, sometimes of the entire system because what you have is not compatible/available any more.

I like that I can feel and picture in my head that pressing this lever moves this cable that pulls this device into position. And marvel out of the precision that can be achieved from such a simple yet clever device.

I like that it never needs charging and you dont have to remember this or risk going out for a ride and having to plug the bike in and wait until it is ready.

I use disc brakes and they are hydraulic. I would prefer if they were mechanical personally but understand the reasons why hydraulic is so much better and I try and convince myself that it is still kind of mechanical in that it is a physical process and can accept them on that basis.

Electronics, fly by wire and all that stuff is great when ultimate performance is needed but that is not why I ride a bike.

I guess this is why I am driving a 12 year old Audi that I bought from new - the car and I fit so well that we have become one and despite some advantages that would come from a new one, I really want to stick with this one that suits me and runs perfectly.

When something is 'right', I dont want to replace it every few years - I want to run it forever. I have now reached that point with most of my cycling stuff. So much so that for my main bike I have a complete spare, boxed and unused, ready for the day when the one I use breaks/gets stolen/wears out etc.

I wont be going Di2 until somebody forces me to.

Bar Shaker

ugo.santalucia wrote:

DKay wrote:

4) Shimano mechnical 7900, 6700 and 5700 have been made obsolete by mechnical 9000, 6800 and 5800. Di2 seems to last ok so far.

I also wonder what is the second hand value of an electronic group set... second hand electronics are typically worthless... a 7800 group set can still be sold for decent money

I sold both of our 6770 rear mechs on eBay. Both sold for over £100.

The new 6870 mechs that I replaced them with were £130 each.

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

I think you're going to see far less of this. Governments are (rightly) cracking down on it - not least of all because of the environmental impact of millions (billions?) of mobile phones, white goods, and other electronics being disposed of too frequently. I believe that planned obsolescence will actually become broadly illegal where it isn't already. The circular economy is also another concept being widely discussed where you might lease products rather than buy them so that they can be recycled or refurbished.

Not really. For years I have worked in the development of OLEDs and everybody was looking for efficiency and lifetime. When lifetime became adequate for market (competitive with the existing technologies), the industry lost interest in lifetime and concentrated on efficiency and cost. They're not going to shoot themselves in the balls so to speak... nobody wants to sell something that last indefinitely and is not superseeded.

arthur_scrimshaw

ugo.santalucia wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

I think you're going to see far less of this. Governments are (rightly) cracking down on it - not least of all because of the environmental impact of millions (billions?) of mobile phones, white goods, and other electronics being disposed of too frequently. I believe that planned obsolescence will actually become broadly illegal where it isn't already. The circular economy is also another concept being widely discussed where you might lease products rather than buy them so that they can be recycled or refurbished.

Not really. For years I have worked in the development of OLEDs and everybody was looking for efficiency and lifetime. When lifetime became adequate for market (competitive with the existing technologies), the industry lost interest in lifetime and concentrated on efficiency and cost. They're not going to shoot themselves in the balls so to speak... nobody wants to sell something that last indefinitely and is not superseeded.

But there's the added driver that new technology makes the old stuff obsolete and feeds the development process. Any legislation will stifle innovation (or will be portrayed as such) but I don't think that's what MRS was suggesting only that effective recycling of obsolete or broken items be madatory? People are not stupid and will not buy new stuff only because it's new (although a minority will) you only need to look at XP vs Vista/7/8 - people can spot a turkey and despite MS's efforts to kill it it's only going to be obsolete when something better comes out.

Bar Shaker

apreading wrote:

I like that I can feel and picture in my head that pressing this lever moves this cable that pulls this device into position. And marvel out of the precision that can be achieved from such a simple yet clever device.

I think this is where the advances in Di2 will come. Pulling ye olde wyres involves very poor precision. Di2 works to a precision of 0.2mm, cable gears will be lucky to work to twice that tolerance. Even if fettled to account for cable stretch and temperature expansion before every ride, the spring tension from the mech probably adds more than 0.2mm stretch to a metre of gear cable. I would go so far as to say that cable gears are always out of index, but that the lack of precision required means that the amount they are out often doesn't matter. If the springs were softer, the water borne crud that finds its way into the cable outers would have a far more frequent game ending effect.

Looking forward, I can see Di2 being able to offer many more gears than 11sp, in years to come. The precision will mean that less space is required between the cogs and more cogs can be fitted in the same width. All with a perfectly self trimming front mech, working in synch.

This debate has all the hallmarks of CD and vinyl record DJ debates. I do get the whole vinyl nostalgia/being connected thing but it doesn't make it better and it doesn't add anything for people that just want to experience the music.

There will always be people who prefer vinyl records and there will always be people who prefer the involvement of cable gears.

ugo.santalucia

Bar Shaker wrote:

This debate has all the hallmarks of CD and vinyl record DJ debates. I do get the whole vinyl nostalgia/being connected thing but it doesn't make it better and it doesn't add anything for people that just want to experience the music.

Spot on...

the thing is, 30 years later the CD is pretty much dead, while there is still a market for vinyl... maybe niche, but there is still demand... slowly growing.
The CD was a brief experience, mostly negative as it failed to provide a better sound experience, failed to be a more durable product and ultimately failed to increase the sales of records

As above, the re-sale value of a CD is zero, while the resale value of vinyl is pretty good

apreading

Bar Shaker wrote:

apreading wrote:

I like that I can feel and picture in my head that pressing this lever moves this cable that pulls this device into position. And marvel out of the precision that can be achieved from such a simple yet clever device.

I think this is where the advances in Di2 will come. Pulling ye olde wyres involves very poor precision. Di2 works to a precision of 0.2mm, cable gears will be lucky to work to twice that tolerance. Even if fettled to account for cable stretch and temperature expansion before every ride, the spring tension from the mech probably adds more than 0.2mm stretch to a metre of gear cable. I would go so far as to say that cable gears are always out of index, but that the lack of precision required means that the amount they are out often doesn't matter. If the springs were softer, the water borne crud that finds its way into the cable outers would have a far more frequent game ending effect.

This is what Di2 supporters dont get - I dont care. Precision of ye olde wyres is fine for me. Plus precision in electronic components is 'meh', nothing special and to be expected. Precision in mechanical devices is something to behold and wonder at.

Bar Shaker wrote:

Looking forward, I can see Di2 being able to offer many more gears than 11sp, in years to come. The precision will mean that less space is required between the cogs and more cogs can be fitted in the same width. All with a perfectly self trimming front mech, working in synch.

Yeah, with a chain so thin that it is more prone to wear and snapping. Plus I think that by that time hub gears will be better and better than they are now and lighter than they are now so belt driven hubs more common and worth a look.

Bar Shaker wrote:

This debate has all the hallmarks of CD and vinyl record DJ debates. I do get the whole vinyl nostalgia/being connected thing but it doesn't make it better and it doesn't add anything for people that just want to experience the music.

There will always be people who prefer vinyl records and there will always be people who prefer the involvement of cable gears.

Ah - I prefer vinyl at home, although listen to MP3s far more now as you cant use vinyl out and about. Vinyl DOES sound better than CDs and that is even with a CD player that cost more than any of my bikes, its just not particularly practical.

Bar Shaker

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

This debate has all the hallmarks of CD and vinyl record DJ debates. I do get the whole vinyl nostalgia/being connected thing but it doesn't make it better and it doesn't add anything for people that just want to experience the music.

Spot on...

the thing is, 30 years later the CD is pretty much dead, while there is still a market for vinyl... maybe niche, but there is still demand... slowly growing.
The CD was a brief experience, mostly negative as it failed to provide a better sound experience, failed to be a more durable product and ultimately failed to increase the sales of records

As above, the re-sale value of a CD is zero, while the resale value of vinyl is pretty good

I think you are missing the point. The comparison was actually with digital music and analogue music, in the hands of DJs. CD as a medium for buying and owning music may be dead, but without it we wouldn't have the technology to download, store and play music digitally. The CD came first, then memory became cheap and we could store music, then people said why do we need the bit of plastic that it is printed onto? The comparison is the change from analogue to digital processes.

Even on your own list you have that because it's electronic, it will go wrong. I will wager that you still own a TV and some audio equipment, despite it being electronic.

ugo.santalucia

Bar Shaker wrote:

Even on your own list you have that because it's electronic, it will go wrong. I will wager that you still own a TV and some audio equipment, despite it being electronic.

I see Di2 as the first attempt to turn bicycles into cars. Since the advent of fuel injection and later engine management, I have lost interest in cars completely. Essentially 'cause I can no longer tinker with them. I own a car and I have not yet opened the bonnet, which is really not like me. I simply don't care about it... it's there and it does its job... it's not a hobby. There are a majority of folks out there who are happy to buy a bike that works well and requires no maintenance other than charging a battery, ride it and then buy a new one 3 years down the line and there is a minority who like to take it apart, change components, try this and that and maybe keep it for 20 years, changing bits here and there. If I had a bike I cannot tinker with, I'd probably lose interest in the process of owning a bicycle and look for something else as a hobby.

It's just what kind of individual you are... they've robbed me of the pleasure of maintaining my own car, they won't do the same with the bike

apreading

Bar Shaker wrote:

Even on your own list you have that because it's electronic, it will go wrong. I will wager that you still own a TV and some audio equipment, despite it being electronic.

But we still marvel at the beauty and function of a grand piano, acoustic guitar, drumkit and orchestra instruments etc. We covet those more than the electronic keyboard and drum sqeuencer.

Bar Shaker

apreading wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

Even on your own list you have that because it's electronic, it will go wrong. I will wager that you still own a TV and some audio equipment, despite it being electronic.

But we still marvel at the beauty and function of a grand piano, acoustic guitar, drumkit and orchestra instruments etc. We covet those more than the electronic keyboard and drum sqeuencer.

I would say we covet the skill of those that can play those instruments well, rather than the instruments themselves.

Although you could liken a piano tuner to someone who has Campag

meanredspider

The comparison to the CD is a red herring. The CD was just superseded as a digital music storage medium. There's absolutely no comparison between digital music consumption (iTunes, Spotify etc) with vinyl.

I also think that the comparison of musical instruments is also a red herring. You're comparing the tone of materials with the tone from a speaker. All we're taking about with Di2 vs mechanical is the energy source for moving the deraileur.

A better comparison might be dialling with an old "dial" phone compared with a modern electronic phone