Di2 owners, once gone electric wont go back?

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

The comparison to the CD is a red herring. The CD was just superseded as a digital music storage medium. There's absolutely no comparison between digital music consumption (iTunes, Spotify etc) with vinyl.

I also think that the comparison of musical instruments is also a red herring. You're comparing the tone of materials with the tone from a speaker. All we're taking about with Di2 vs mechanical is the energy source for moving the deraileur.

A better comparison might be dialling with an old "dial" phone compared with a modern electronic phone

Digital music opened up a range of new possibilities, for me as a consumer it made no difference whatsoever... the iPod has not made my life better than the Walkman did... as a matter of fact I no longer list to music, except if I am driving, even there is no real improvement

desweller

I listen to MP3s all the time.

Mostly dubbed from tapes, records or CDs!

Maybe I've missed the point.

thegreatdivide

Compared to this time 20 years ago when you could make a nice earner from a solid 12” release, these days we put out vinyl records to cater for a tiny niche market which has been on a flat line for about 10 years. Forgot all those press stories about it making a resurgence – it’s never gone away and the same story has been trotted out year after year.

We also release on digital (WAV and mp3) so that the non-vinyl collecting digital DJ’s have something to use. Neither formats are sold to make us or the artists money. You make some, but it’s a TINY fraction compared to 20 years ago. Nowadays it’s seen as promotional tool to get you gigs which make you cash.

CD’s are still released by labels and so are cassette tapes! Are they the equivalent downshifters?

Re the comment about coveting acoustic instruments over electronic ones – you are so far off the mark. Do you know how much a Roland TR303 goes for? Not to mention the Moog System series of modular synths. These things are works of art and are coveted way more than a drum kit!

MisterMuncher

Not really the greatest example, though. Those are specific synths of a type that aren't or can't be made today. it's the age and obsolescence that gives the value.

thegreatdivide

MisterMuncher wrote:

Not really the greatest example, though. Those are specific synths of a type that aren't or can't be made today. it's the age and obsolescence that gives the value.

Plenty of TR303 analogue reissues being produced these days (inc one by Roland) with several replicating the exact circuitry. Linn are doing it, Sequential Circuits are doing it. Many of the old guard are back. And on the subject of exact circuitry Moog have started reproduced the System series with the top one selling for £35k. I have a friend in Holland who rebuilds all kinds of analogue synths and drum machines for resale and he makes a healthy profit from doing so.

meanredspider

I love the way threads go off course - you can sometimes even learn some things (maybe once or twice a year...)

thegreatdivide

meanredspider wrote:

I love the way threads go off course - you can sometimes even learn some things (maybe once or twice a year...)

If a thread hasn't changed direction withing 10 posts it's not worth getting involed in

MisterMuncher

You have me there, I know less of the synth market than I once did. Still, those reissues are premium, niche products. The mainstream is mostly digital, I would have thought. It's like guitar amps. You can get a Vox ac30 made on a pcb, or pay twice as much for a functionally identical circuit made on turret boards, because it's more vintage correct. A player could tell the difference, maybe, but a listening punter? I doubt they could discern valve from modelling, especially in a full band scenario.

And in a roundabout way, I'm back to di2. To me, it's like amps or synth in that first post-analogue rush. It's doing much the same thing as the prior incarnation, but with advantages in reliability and ease of setup, and carrying a premium for doing so. To my eyes though, is not quite at the killer app stage. I don't find the shift quality compellingly improved over nicely tuned mech, and I never found maintenence much of a chore. It's still a bit of a missed opportunity. Some community/third party ideas, like sequential shifting, should have been there out of the box. Wireless was eminently possible all along, and seems to have been overlooked in favour of selling it again a few years down the line. The extra accuracy is all well and good, but it's on the same number of cogs as mech. Why not belt and cvt, something really innovative. Two way data bus, integrate speed/cadence/power? All things that could have been done, but weren't. Because at the end of the day, it's an incremental step, not a revolution.

DeVlaeminck

Di2 seems fairly neutral in terms of performance - people are still winning big pro races without it so it isn't making a significant difference. I can't see them being able to manufacture a system with cvt (or auto shifting as has been suggested before) which would work in a race situation and stuff like more sprockets would inevitably shorten the lifespan of the equipment when in truth I don't think anyone really needs more than 22 gears - I mean even touring cyclists and mountain bikers are starting to move away from triples because they can get enough of a spread without ridiculous gaps from a double or even a single front ring - for road cyclists 11 is probably already past the point of offering any real gain.

MisterMuncher

It's that very neutrality that I struggle with. It just seems like the easiest option was taken, a nice mech drivetrain with a PLC and a few stepper motors or solenoids.

CVT wouldn't work terribly well in a race, that's true. But, say, a 105-level Urban/Touring Di2 instead of Nexus Di2. Add an electronic clutch for the freehub to allow static gear changing while you're at it.

Suckmycleat

Had mechanical and now electric.

I'll never go back

markwb79

I actually like all the tinkering with mechanical gears.

There is something about the noise too. Mechanical gears sound better to me. The sound of the gear change on Sram Red is my favourite.

In a way I also think that some gear changes are faster on mechanical groupsets. Moving down 4 or 5 gears on Campag seems faster than di2 to me.

Of course its easier to set up and I definitely like the auto trim on the front mech, thats probably the biggest appeal to me.

keezx

With the introduction of diskbrakes and tru axles and 140 mm spacing 12 speed is inevitable i'm afraid.
The Americans want to make cycling bike to a motorbike without motor ( already spotted E-mountainbikes!!!)
I would like that.
9 Speed triple stuff given away for almost free.....

ai_1

Keezx wrote:

9 Speed triple stuff given away for almost free.....

It is nice to be able to pick up 9 speed cassettes so cheap. I've bought 3 in the last 18 months. Though I had a little more difficulty replacing my triple chainset recently (also 9 speed).

Suckmycleat

Markwb79 wrote:

I actually like all the tinkering with mechanical gears.

[url=Thttp://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=13007044here]Thttp://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewto ... 007044here[/url] is something about the noise too. Mechanical gears sound better to me. The sound of the gear change on Sram Red is my favourite.

In a way I also think that some gear changes are faster on mechanical groupsets. Moving down 4 or 5 gears on Campag seems faster than di2 to me.

Of course its easier to set up and I definitely like the auto trim on the front mech, thats probably the biggest appeal to me.

You can move down an entire cassette on Di2, it's very fast. Mechanical is slower to do that.

You can then move up the entire cassette just as quick and all it takes is one button push. No chains falling off. No 'has it changed gear?' going through your mind.

It's click and forget. Unlike mechanical, which can be click and regret.

norvernrob

All those analogies aren't really right. It's hardly more effort to change gear on a cable bike than it is with Di2. My mate has had Ultegra Di2 for a while, he's just bought a new bike with Red 22 and is keeping it over the Di2.

He says the Di2 was nice but it hasn't bothered him going back to mechanical, the Di2 may have auto trimming but the Red yaw front mech doesn't need any - he was surprised he could use every gear without rubbing.

There's a very good chance I'll get the wireless Red at some point (as long as it's lighter than mechanical or I won't bother) - but it won't be because there's anything wrong with mechanical, I just like new stuff.

norvernrob

Suckmycleat wrote:

Markwb79 wrote:

I actually like all the tinkering with mechanical gears.

[url=Thttp://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=13007044here]Thttp://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewto ... 007044here[/url] is something about the noise too. Mechanical gears sound better to me. The sound of the gear change on Sram Red is my favourite.

In a way I also think that some gear changes are faster on mechanical groupsets. Moving down 4 or 5 gears on Campag seems faster than di2 to me.

Of course its easier to set up and I definitely like the auto trim on the front mech, thats probably the biggest appeal to me.

You can move down an entire cassette on Di2, it's very fast. Mechanical is slower to do that.

You can then move up the entire cassette just as quick and all it takes is one button push. No chains falling off. No 'has it changed gear?' going through your mind.

It's click and forget. Unlike mechanical, which can be click and regret.

Chains falling off and gears not changing? You should probably have tried a properly setup bike.

meanredspider

NorvernRob wrote:

All those analogies aren't really right. It's hardly more effort to change gear on a cable bike than it is with Di2. My mate has had Ultegra Di2 for a while, he's just bought a new bike with Red 22 and is keeping it over the Di2.

It is significantly different changing the FD on every mechanical bike I've ridden. There's always a long throw in the lever and, necessarily, the spring required to throw the chain back is quite heavy. So it's not a massive deal but, once you're used to Di2, the FD shift of mechanical seems very old fashioned. I'd have killed for Di2 on my MTB when I did the Puffer - my left thumb was killing me by the end of the 24 hours.

Now, that might not be enough to justify the expense for some people and, like I don't bother with disc brakes on my Foil (because NL doesn't need their superior performance), I'm sure there are times when the extra cost of Di2 isn't appealing or doesn't fit the budget or (like the Foil and disc brakes) simply isn't an option

markwb79

meanredspider wrote:

NorvernRob wrote:

All those analogies aren't really right. It's hardly more effort to change gear on a cable bike than it is with Di2. My mate has had Ultegra Di2 for a while, he's just bought a new bike with Red 22 and is keeping it over the Di2.

It is significantly different changing the FD on every mechanical bike I've ridden. There's always a long throw in the lever and, necessarily, the spring required to throw the chain back is quite heavy. So it's not a massive deal but, once you're used to Di2, the FD shift of mechanical seems very old fashioned. I'd have killed for Di2 on my MTB when I did the Puffer - my left thumb was killing me by the end of the 24 hours.

Now, that might not be enough to justify the expense for some people and, like I don't bother with disc brakes on my Foil (because NL doesn't need their superior performance), I'm sure there are times when the extra cost of Di2 isn't appealing or doesn't fit the budget or (like the Foil and disc brakes) simply isn't an option

Totally agree about the FD. But there is something about the feel when using my FD on Super Record that seems so much nicer than electronic.

meanredspider

Markwb79 wrote:

Totally agree about the FD. But there is something about the feel when using my FD on Super Record that seems so much nicer than electronic.

I can't disagree because I'm simply not really conscious of changing with Di2. And there is something very nice about a beautifully designed mechanical action. I just prefer not even to be aware of it though - that's a taste thing.

Fishboyz

Having reviewed a million di2 vids as part of building my latest project I think I'm glad I waited as tbh I doubt if I would have bothered with some of the really fugly implementations of cables taped external to the frame, zip ties and external battery....I'm a hopeless tart so internal routing, seat post battery it had to be...

Bar Shaker

NorvernRob wrote:

All those analogies aren't really right. It's hardly more effort to change gear on a cable bike than it is with Di2. My mate has had Ultegra Di2 for a while, he's just bought a new bike with Red 22 and is keeping it over the Di2.

He says the Di2 was nice but it hasn't bothered him going back to mechanical, the Di2 may have auto trimming but the Red yaw front mech doesn't need any - he was surprised he could use every gear without rubbing.

There's a very good chance I'll get the wireless Red at some point (as long as it's lighter than mechanical or I won't bother) - but it won't be because there's anything wrong with mechanical, I just like new stuff.

A wireless set up needs a battery in every component and is always at risk of interference. There isn't a hope of the SRAM system being close to the weight of mechanical, or as reliable as Di2.

ai_1

Bar Shaker wrote:

NorvernRob wrote:

All those analogies aren't really right. It's hardly more effort to change gear on a cable bike than it is with Di2. My mate has had Ultegra Di2 for a while, he's just bought a new bike with Red 22 and is keeping it over the Di2.

He says the Di2 was nice but it hasn't bothered him going back to mechanical, the Di2 may have auto trimming but the Red yaw front mech doesn't need any - he was surprised he could use every gear without rubbing.

There's a very good chance I'll get the wireless Red at some point (as long as it's lighter than mechanical or I won't bother) - but it won't be because there's anything wrong with mechanical, I just like new stuff.

A wireless set up needs a battery in every component and is always at risk of interference. There isn't a hope of the SRAM system being close to the weight of mechanical, or as reliable as Di2.

While distributed power storage is pretty messy (and I'm not sure what real benefit it brings) lithium batteries still have good "capacity density" at small sizes so I don't think this will necessarily drive up the weight. Likewise local Bluetooth, ANT or proprietary wireless communications can be very compact and lightweight. I would see distributed power and wireless communication as additional potential points of failure but I'm not sure they necessarily mean significant weight increase.

meanredspider

I've said that I can see it going the other way - battery in the seat tube powering everything: lights, gears, GPS etc With the frame designed right, the wires would be inconsequential.

Bar Shaker

Ai_1 wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

NorvernRob wrote:

All those analogies aren't really right. It's hardly more effort to change gear on a cable bike than it is with Di2. My mate has had Ultegra Di2 for a while, he's just bought a new bike with Red 22 and is keeping it over the Di2.

He says the Di2 was nice but it hasn't bothered him going back to mechanical, the Di2 may have auto trimming but the Red yaw front mech doesn't need any - he was surprised he could use every gear without rubbing.

There's a very good chance I'll get the wireless Red at some point (as long as it's lighter than mechanical or I won't bother) - but it won't be because there's anything wrong with mechanical, I just like new stuff.

A wireless set up needs a battery in every component and is always at risk of interference. There isn't a hope of the SRAM system being close to the weight of mechanical, or as reliable as Di2.

While distributed power storage is pretty messy (and I'm not sure what real benefit it brings) lithium batteries still have good "capacity density" at small sizes so I don't think this will necessarily drive up the weight. Likewise local Bluetooth, ANT or proprietary wireless communications can be very compact and lightweight. I would see distributed power and wireless communication as additional potential points of failure but I'm not sure they necessarily mean significant weight increase.

Four batteries, four charging requirements... All too much of a faff. Lithium batteries may be light, the Di2 unit is one, but four would either have a tiny life or would be heavier.

Four charging points? It's a complication that just isn't needed.

sloppyschleckonds

Bar Shaker wrote:

A wireless set up needs a battery in every component and is always at risk of interference. There isn't a hope of the SRAM system being close to the weight of mechanical, or as reliable as Di2.

DoubleTap is the future

Bar Shaker

There was a time when Double Tap was the future. I loved mine.

Then Di2 came along.

markwb79

Bar Shaker wrote:

Ai_1 wrote:

Bar Shaker wrote:

NorvernRob wrote:

All those analogies aren't really right. It's hardly more effort to change gear on a cable bike than it is with Di2. My mate has had Ultegra Di2 for a while, he's just bought a new bike with Red 22 and is keeping it over the Di2.

He says the Di2 was nice but it hasn't bothered him going back to mechanical, the Di2 may have auto trimming but the Red yaw front mech doesn't need any - he was surprised he could use every gear without rubbing.

There's a very good chance I'll get the wireless Red at some point (as long as it's lighter than mechanical or I won't bother) - but it won't be because there's anything wrong with mechanical, I just like new stuff.

A wireless set up needs a battery in every component and is always at risk of interference. There isn't a hope of the SRAM system being close to the weight of mechanical, or as reliable as Di2.

While distributed power storage is pretty messy (and I'm not sure what real benefit it brings) lithium batteries still have good "capacity density" at small sizes so I don't think this will necessarily drive up the weight. Likewise local Bluetooth, ANT or proprietary wireless communications can be very compact and lightweight. I would see distributed power and wireless communication as additional potential points of failure but I'm not sure they necessarily mean significant weight increase.

Four batteries, four charging requirements... All too much of a faff. Lithium batteries may be light, the Di2 unit is one, but four would either have a tiny life or would be heavier.

Four charging points? It's a complication that just isn't needed.

I don't know about that, will be the same as the Di2 with the external battery, just you will be taking two batterys off. I think the shifter ones will last a great deal longer. I read somewhere that it might be as simple as a watch battery, all they are doing is sending a signal to the detailers.

Anyway, I would wait till the day after the release when Shimano bring theirs to the market to finally put the nail in the SRAM coffin.

bernithebiker

So maybe I'm the most unlucky Di2 user out there, but I now have a new problem.

My internal battery is 5 / 6 months old, and has done about 6000km.

It seems to charge OK - the charger light eventually goes out.

Next morning, the left lever tests shows green blinking light - so not fully charged then....

The Garmin 510 (via the EWW01) shows battery at 30% (it has always seemed to 'underquote').

After an hour's riding I get the low battery warning on the Garmin, 20%.

The left lever test shows solid red.

This is a 100km ride I'm doing so I'm getting nervous, but it did get me home. But I doubt it would cover me on an Etape du Tour or similar like this.

So what's the deal? EWW01 draining the battery or battery just all used up?

meanredspider

I'd suspect the battery or the charger first. The battery doesn't sound very good. My (external) battery charger goes from empty to full in probably less than an hour.

Just as an aside (in case someone has similar behaviour) the Volagi has been sat for two or three months and, when I came to ride it, I tested the battery with the lever and got green. Set off and had only FD. Checked battery charge again (using right lever - showing it was connected) and had red. Same with left lever. FD continued to work (albeit hesitantly) but no RD. Anyhow, 10 minute charge and all was good.

Just worth being aware that if the battery is drained over long term:
- it might show green on first test
- FD might work and RD not (reverse of behaviour when battery drains on a ride)