Di2 owners, once gone electric wont go back?

veronese68

Chadders81 wrote:

We'll all end up with Di2 and disc brakes eventually.

You're probably right. Proper full hydraulic discs would be more important for me. But this is not for any reasoned dislike of Di2 just that I use my bike all year round and may be a bit paranoid regarding brakes. I have bought frames and built up my last few bikes so I would be buying a groupset which as you say is possibly overpriced compared to buying a bike with it already fitted. At the moment the cost to benefit ratio doesn't work for me, that may well change.
As an aside has anyone had a bent hanger with a Di2 set up? Does it deal with it any better than a mechanical set up? I presume you could go through the equivalent of indexing and it would cope as best as it could.

vermin

Veronese68 wrote:

Chadders81 wrote:

We'll all end up with Di2 and disc brakes eventually.

You're probably right. Proper full hydraulic discs would be more important for me. But this is not for any reasoned dislike of Di2 just that I use my bike all year round and may be a bit paranoid regarding brakes. I have bought frames and built up my last few bikes so I would be buying a groupset which as you say is possibly overpriced compared to buying a bike with it already fitted. At the moment the cost to benefit ratio doesn't work for me, that may well change.
As an aside has anyone had a bent hanger with a Di2 set up? Does it deal with it any better than a mechanical set up? I presume you could go through the equivalent of indexing and it would cope as best as it could.

I did have my first Di2 rear derailleur break off, fall into the spokes, destroy the rear wheel, which spun it round and smashed it into the seat stay, smashing that too. This all happened within 25 miles of receiving the bike. Not sure what started it all, but presumably either the hanger was already broken on delivery and it was just a matter of time before it let go and dropped the derailleur into the wheel, or there was a dramatic failure of the derailleur which caused it to lock up, which in turn applied excessive force to the hanger, causing it to break.

I got a new bike. Nice supplier.

Bar Shaker

Veronese68 wrote:

As an aside has anyone had a bent hanger with a Di2 set up? Does it deal with it any better than a mechanical set up? I presume you could go through the equivalent of indexing and it would cope as best as it could.

If you bend a hanger, a Di2 mech will go into the spokes just as easily as cable pulled ones.

Your only saving grace is that in some cases, the crash protection may stop the mech and the hanger becoming bent in the first place. There are limits though.

veronese68

Yes, I guess it can't defy the laws of physics. I was thinking of slightly out of line rather than catastrophically bent leading to breakage. Thinking about the hassle trying to get the indexing right on my Kinesis when I eventually discovered a slightly twisted hanger. I presume in those circumstances it would just do the best it could and you would still get some noise and maybe the occasional bad shift in the same way a mechanical set up would.
Good service from the supplier Vermin, but I guess after only 25 miles they couldn't really argue.
What does the crash protection do? Does it shut down if there is a heavy knock or something?

rolf_f

Chadders81 wrote:

We'll all end up with Di2 and disc brakes eventually.

For commuting and winter bikes maybe but I can't see the need for either on a dry days only best bike. I suspect most people living in the flatter parts of the Med might struggle to see where the benefit in disc brakes is!

bondurant

I think if I do succumb to the modern world I'd probably be looking at a cx or winter bike with hydraulics.

bernithebiker

I've just tried to pair up the new Di2 EWW01 gear position sender with my Garmin 510 and it's having none of it!

Cannot find it at all.

Bit gutted really. You'd think that for over £50 for a tiny sender that probably costs about a fiver to make, they'd have ironed out any bugs and just made it plug and play.......

DKay

Veronese68 wrote:

Yes, I guess it can't defy the laws of physics. I was thinking of slightly out of line rather than catastrophically bent leading to breakage. Thinking about the hassle trying to get the indexing right on my Kinesis when I eventually discovered a slightly twisted hanger. I presume in those circumstances it would just do the best it could and you would still get some noise and maybe the occasional bad shift in the same way a mechanical set up would.
Good service from the supplier Vermin, but I guess after only 25 miles they couldn't really argue.
What does the crash protection do? Does it shut down if there is a heavy knock or something?

A bent rear hanger will affect the shifting of a Di2 RD exactly the same as a mechnical one. The crash protection mode on the rear mech is activated when you crash on the drive side. If the mech is struck, it detects the excessive load and disengages the worm drive to save it from getting trashed.

londoncommuter

Apologies for the complete sidetrack but I've finally got all the bits to build up a new bike (Scott Foil with 6870 di2 bundle). Is there anything you'd wished you'd known before you started on a di2 build? The frame is di2 only with internal wiring and the battery internal. Feel free to get back to the battle once you've all helped!

meanredspider

Rolf F wrote:

the flatter parts of the Med might struggle to see where the benefit in disc brakes is!

People in properly flat parts if the world use that reverse pedalling braking malarky.

I use rim brakes brakes in NL but only because they were cheap and I almost never brake. If disc brakes had been the same price I'd have taken them - there's no downside

meanredspider

londoncommuter wrote:

Apologies for the complete sidetrack but I've finally got all the bits to build up a new bike (Scott Foil with 6870 di2 bundle). Is there anything you'd wished you'd known before you started on a di2 build? The frame is di2 only with internal wiring and the battery internal. Feel free to get back to the battle once you've all helped!

Just make sure you use the tool to do the connections and make sure they click properly. Compared with mechanical shifting installation, Di2 is an absolute doddle

meanredspider

DKay wrote:

A bent rear hanger will affect the shifting of a Di2 RD exactly the same as a mechnical one. The crash protection mode on the rear mech is activated when you crash on the drive side. If the mech is struck, it detects the excessive load and disengages the worm drive to save it from getting trashed.

One of the differences is that, if indexing is difficult with Di2, you can quickly look outside the shifting system - no sticky cables or anything

londoncommuter

meanredspider wrote:

Just make sure you use the tool to do the connections and make sure they click properly. Compared with mechanical shifting installation, Di2 is an absolute doddle

Oh so you need that EW02 tool? I thought it looked a bit over the top as aren't you just plugging wires in? Pretty cheap if useful though.

Do you need to properly install the chainset to make sure the front derailleur is in the right place? I'd rather not press the bearings in and seal junction box B in forever before absolutely necessary but from a quick read it looks like you need to position the mech just right to stop it wrecking your frame.

meanredspider

The tool is a really good idea - normally comes with the kit (it's only plastic)

You can operate the system before you install the BB/crank and rear wheel, tape the bars etc etc In fact you'd be wise to do so. Then fit the BB and crank, rear wheel etc and then set it up. Seriously though - provided it's plugged together (doesn't matter which port the wires go into) and there's charge on the battery, then all will be good.

DKay

londoncommuter wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

Just make sure you use the tool to do the connections and make sure they click properly. Compared with mechanical shifting installation, Di2 is an absolute doddle

Oh so you need that EW02 tool? I thought it looked a bit over the top as aren't you just plugging wires in? Pretty cheap if useful though.

Do you need to properly install the chainset to make sure the front derailleur is in the right place? I'd rather not press the bearings in and seal junction box B in forever before absolutely necessary but from a quick read it looks like you need to position the mech just right to stop it wrecking your frame.

You will need to use the tool, as it requires a certain amount of force to click them securely in and doing it by hand will probably damage the e-tube cable as you won't be able to grasp it correctly. Especially when it comes to installing the cables inside the shifter, where space is tight. You will need to have the chainset installed in order to set-up the front mech, but you can fit all the stuff onto the frame first, before pressing in the BB. The press-fit Shimano BB isn't too hard to remove if you need to though.

A couple of things I'd do differently second time around;

I'd secure the battery inside the seatpost using some foam wrap or similar, instead of using the plastic Ritchey item which came in my bundle. It fits too tightly inside the seatpost and seems now to be almost impossible to remove.

I'd zip-tie the excess cables together inside the downtube, instead of just stuffing them in willy nilly.

bernithebiker

bernithebiker wrote:

I've just tried to pair up the new Di2 EWW01 gear position sender with my Garmin 510 and it's having none of it!

Cannot find it at all.

Bit gutted really. You'd think that for over £50 for a tiny sender that probably costs about a fiver to make, they'd have ironed out any bugs and just made it plug and play.......

OK, now I'm totally freaked out.

Got hold of a portable PC.

Got the E tube program.

Plugged into my Di2 (internal battery) and performed updates on the charger itself, 2 shifters and the battery.

All checks out OK, it can see the sender unit.

BUT, my bike is now dead. No shifting at all, no green light on control box. Nothing.

Madison say, strip the Di2 off your bike and send it back to us. Yeah right.

I cannot perform an Error Check because I do not have the diagnostics box SM-PCE 1.

Help!!!!

Pulsatingstar

Have you tried just plugging it in (to a plug) and charging it. I had this problem on the first night I got home with Di2 but just recharging it sorted it out.

No Idea why it happened in the first place as it was operating fine until I plugged it into the PC.

DeVlaeminck

This can't be happening as Di2 never goes wrong!

bernithebiker

OK so here's the deal so far. I'm posting these details to help others in the future, as I can't be the only one this will happen to, and anyone installing the EWW01 may have this happen to them.

To resume; performed updates using E-Tube program - it updated the EWW01 (yeah I know, why as it only just came out!)
and the shifters, and the battery, and the charger.

Then whole bike system then went dead, no light at the box, no shifting, nothing.

Took it to my LBS who sold me the EWW01, they have no idea, no one has any expertise in Di2, but they do have the PCE01 box which you MUST have if you want to check for errors.

This box connects to the system via an E-cable, BUT plugging it in to the shifter produced an error, as did into the battery. Stumped at this point.

Upon the advice of Madison (very helpful if you get the right person), I plugged it into the rear mech, and asked E-Tube to look for rear mech only. Which it found. Then, miraculously, I got my shifting back. None seems to know how or why.

As a bonus, the EWW01 has now been recognised by my Garmin.

But be careful kids - updating firmware, or adding components, IMO is fraught with danger. When the system dies, it dies, you can't ride your bike, and VERY few people out there know how Di2 works.

Edit : Should also add that'd you're lucky in the UK - I had to phone Madison UK, as Shimano France does not even provide a phone number, and take a week (if you're lucky to respond to an email).

meanredspider

DeVlaeminck wrote:

This can't be happening as Di2 never goes wrong!

It almost never does - unless you fvck about with it in which case you either need to know what you're doing or be prepared for issues. That, though, is very different from being stranded on a ride which seems to be most people's concern.

bernithebiker

meanredspider wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

This can't be happening as Di2 never goes wrong!

It almost never does - unless you fvck about with it in which case you either need to know what you're doing or be prepared for issues. That, though, is very different from being stranded on a ride which seems to be most people's concern.

Thing is though, I didn't 'fvck about with it'.

I bought the gear position sender EWW01 and installed it as per the very basic instructions in the box. It just slots in between the rear mech and the 4 way junction box.

There was an immediate compatibility issue, and I was told to update all firmware, which I did, which then killed my system.

I then had to beg, borrow or steal a PCE01 and spend a whole day to get it working again.

If Shimano are going to sell £5 transmitters for £50 then they need to provide backup for it when it goes wrong, and clearer more comprehensive instructions.

meanredspider

bernithebiker wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

This can't be happening as Di2 never goes wrong!

It almost never does - unless you fvck about with it in which case you either need to know what you're doing or be prepared for issues. That, though, is very different from being stranded on a ride which seems to be most people's concern.

Thing is though, I didn't 'fvck about with it'.

I bought the gear position sender EWW01 and installed it as per the very basic instructions in the box. It just slots in between the rear mech and the 4 way junction box.

There was an immediate compatibility issue, and I was told to update all firmware, which I did, which then killed my system.

I then had to beg, borrow or steal a PCE01 and spend a whole day to get it working again.

If Shimano are going to sell £5 transmitters for £50 then they need to provide backup for it when it goes wrong, and clearer more comprehensive instructions.

I agree. It was just in response to the petty Di2 jibe.

The thing is, compatibility in these systems is always an issue. Standards are constantly changing (and before we get any comments related to electronics, think about 10sp to 11sp, or the plethora of BB standards) as the world moves on and looks to get more and more out of the system. The only time you can be reasonably sure everything will work first time is "out of the box" as a kit. After that, any changes (whatever they are) might require an upgrade. Because it's distributed control, you can't be sure which bit is causing the problem. This will settle down and we'll all get used to it. Expertise will emerge and people like you will find out how to solve the problems. I think it actually says a lot about Di2 that there isn't much support out there - no-one's much needed it.

bernithebiker

It's the feeling of utter helplessness when your Di2 goes down.....if it was mechanical you can at least see what's going on, work out where the problem is, cobble together a solution, and if you're in some remote French village, the local shop can probably get you going again.

I'm wary of any update whether it's Safari, iOS, Garmin, whatever - I will wait until the very last minute to update, 'cos 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'.

Here I had no choice, and it broke down, which left me without a bike.

Shimano needs to make this stuff bulletproof and/or provide excellent support.

Having had my first FD defective out of the box last November, and now this ,my faith is well and truly shaken.

veronese68

meanredspider wrote:

I agree. It was just in response to the petty Di2 jibe.

I thought that was more of a jibe at the Di2 police that got really angry with CiB as soon as the possibility of a problem was mentioned. That was ridiculous and is worthy of having a dig at. Come to think of it did the bloke have a pop at you as well? I'm guessing he got banned as he hasn't cropped up on the last few Di2 threads.

vermin

bernithebiker wrote:

It's the feeling of utter helplessness when your Di2 goes down.....if it was mechanical you can at least see what's going on, work out where the problem is, cobble together a solution, and if you're in some remote French village, the local shop can probably get you going again.

The feeling of utter helplessness is a reflection on you; not on the system. As a member of the population as a whole, you are in a tiny minority that would look at a mechanical gear system, see what's going on, work out where the problem is and cobble together a solution. Most people would be just as baffled by the mechanical system as you are by the electronic. The comment about a local shop in a French village? Well, that's just reflective of the fact that Di2 is new and not yet standard kit. In a year or two, if adoption increases, every provincial French bike shop will have a diagnostic tool and fixing a frozen Di2 system will be much quicker and easier than fixing a broken mechanical system. Probably.

meanredspider

We'll all get better at this. Samsung have said that by 2020 everything that they make will be "connected". The Internet of Things is coming - stuff like this will be mundane. I already have the lights in my flat "geo fenced" so they switch on or off depending upon where I am. They turn on slowly in the morning with my alarm in the colour setting I want. And so on... Cars have been using distributed control for years and factories even longer than that.

bernithebiker

vermin wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

It's the feeling of utter helplessness when your Di2 goes down.....if it was mechanical you can at least see what's going on, work out where the problem is, cobble together a solution, and if you're in some remote French village, the local shop can probably get you going again.

The feeling of utter helplessness is a reflection on you; not on the system. As a member of the population as a whole, you are in a tiny minority that would look at a mechanical gear system, see what's going on, work out where the problem is and cobble together a solution. Most people would be just as baffled by the mechanical system as you are by the electronic. The comment about a local shop in a French village? Well, that's just reflective of the fact that Di2 is new and not yet standard kit. In a year or two, if adoption increases, every provincial French bike shop will have a diagnostic tool and fixing a frozen Di2 system will be much quicker and easier than fixing a broken mechanical system. Probably.

True, I don't have a great understanding of electronics, I'm a mechanical engineer, not electrical!

Maybe I'm old school (44), but I think more riders would be able to fix a mechanical system than electronic.

It will be quite some time before the bike shops understand Di2 round my way, let alone have all the black boxes.

I thought that by waiting till end 2014, DA 9070 for my move to Di2, all the bugs would be sorted out, but evidently not quite yet.

The danger is that if you add say a new battery, or new shifter to your Di2 system and that component is not up to date or not the same firmware as the rest, it may jam the system up.

meanredspider

This problem might not be a bug (just in the same way that an 11sp cassette won't work on a 10sp hub) - you're just not running compatible versions of the firmware. As I say, firmware can get updated to take advantage of more efficient comms protocols for instance. I'm a mech eng too but you simply can't avoid the software side of things these days.

bernithebiker

meanredspider wrote:

This problem might not be a bug (just in the same way that an 11sp cassette won't work on a 10sp hub) - you're just not running compatible versions of the firmware. As I say, firmware can get updated to take advantage of more efficient comms protocols for instance. I'm a mech eng too but you simply can't avoid the software side of things these days.

Yes, but it was updating everything to the most recent versions that caused the system to jam/fail.

Go figure.

(When I asked Madison after we go it fixed what had happened and why, he didn't know...)

bernithebiker

Think it's important to point this out;

If you have Di2 with an internal battery and therefore battery charger BCR2 and you have a problem you are in the sh1t.

You need the PCE1 (external battery charger) to be able to Error Check or interrogate individual components.

Why?

Because the BCR2 has a special end plug just for the junction box, whereas the PCE1 has a normal E cable (plus no doubt other gibbons inside the box).

If you do replace a battery or shifter it WILL NOT have the latest firmware so you will have to update it (which you can do with BCR2 and E-tube program (not if you have a Mac though, tough sh1T!)

That update may go smoothly in conjunction with the rest of the system, it may not. If it doesn't you need a PCE1 to bring it back to life. So hope your LBS is open / friendly and that they have one.