Any Oenophile's here ?

VTech

Gabbo wrote:

So a safe way to invest in wine then...

Depends, my main point was what I did or my kids. Forget the plastic tat for Xmas, get them a few nice toys and put a 6 case of lafite in bond. Do this yearly and forget the worries of university bills.
The advice is good. Take it or leave it, it doesn't matter.

ooermissus

VTech wrote:

VTech wrote:

I could go on about how much I know and to what lengths I've gone to protect the wines I have but morons like you would say its back to money. Arguing with morons is futile but I'd rather be me than you. That's a certainty.

[...]

This is what frustrates me about you. Quite clearly you are a clever fella, you could have given so much depth to this thread instead of taking the path you did.
Of course, storage is key and having provenance for a collection is the real value. I chose to have a secure cellar, built by a traditionalist in a controlled environment with yearly fluctuations of +- 1 degree.
All of my keepers are logged both at storage and on line so records are kept.

Which of course will have cost an awful lot of money - eating into and possibly erasing your profits from the wine itself.

Not that's not necessarily a bad thing, as you say you collect because you like to have bottles that remind you of places etc, and not just for the investment. But for a pure investor - with anything other than a huge collection - paying £15 per case per year for commercial storage is the way to go.

Mccaria

Ooermissus,

Good point, I had forgotten the Sauternes.

I also agree with you that if buying wine for investment, it makes no sense to store it at home. Most of the people I know who collect wine, keep the drinking wine at home but will leave wine bought for laying down or investment purposes in bond. Current bond storage costs are £9-10 per bottle and maintains provenance.

VTech

I posted way back about keeping in bond. That is and will always be my advice for investors.

ooermissus

VTech wrote:

I posted way back about keeping in bond. That is and will always be my advice for investors.

Well why call me a moron - too dumb for anyone to listen to - when I made that point to those asking for advice?

Yellow Peril

I did a quick google on lafite. It was about £2K for 6 bottles in bond. I don't have that sort of disposable income, I guess I'm out.

Mccaria

VTech - in your original post you say your interest in wine is more as a collector rather than as a drinker and yet you prefer to keep your wines at home rather than in bond ?

VTech

Yellow Peril wrote:

I did a quick google on lafite. It was about £2K for 6 bottles in bond. I don't have that sort of disposable income, I guess I'm out.

You don't have to pay anywhere near that for futures, you can buy next years stock at significantly lower prices than that and my first advice was as an alternative for wastage at Xmas and not as a "I have a spare but of cash, what do I buy?"

Also in answer to Mccarrie, I do prefer to keep mine in my own cellars, this is preference but I also have bonded stock for tax reasons. Not everyone has access to a cellar.

ooermissus

Yellow Peril wrote:

I did a quick google on lafite. It was about £2K for 6 bottles in bond. I don't have that sort of disposable income, I guess I'm out.

This graph shows why Vtech has made money from his Lafite in the past and also how prices are now falling (destination unknown).

Yellow Peril

VTech wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

I did a quick google on lafite. It was about £2K for 6 bottles in bond. I don't have that sort of disposable income, I guess I'm out.

You don't have to pay anywhere near that for futures, you can buy next years stock at significantly lower prices than that and my first advice was as an alternative for wastage at Xmas and not as a "I have a spare but of cash, what do I buy?"

Also in answer to Mccarrie, I do prefer to keep mine in my own cellars, this is preference but I also have bonded stock for tax reasons. Not everyone has access to a cellar.

1. OK how much do you pay for futures?

2. OK how much is significantly lower?

3. OK how much won't I be wasting at Xmas?

If you can expand upon these points (probably the same point really) it would help. In your experience If I buy 6 bottles of next year's stock how much will it cost and how much can I expect it to go up in value by annually?

ooermissus

En primeur is the name for wine futures. And the last vintage cost around £4k for 12 bottles, as you found out.

Mccaria

Ok I am off to watch the football. With reference to the original question, I am a big fan of Burgundy, both red and wine. Would happily donate my liver to the white wines of Chassagne, Puligny and Batard Montrachet. Vosne Romanee for the reds, augmented by Italian Barolos and Barbaresco. If you want a real foodie experience go to the truffle markets in Alba and then take a drive into the Piedmont wine villages.

Don't know much about American wines. On the recommendation of my broker I have a case of 2008 Ridge Monte Bello downstairs that I will report back on in circa 5-10 years..... Til then !

Yellow Peril

ooermissus wrote:

En primeur is the name for wine futures. And the last vintage cost around £4k for 12 bottles, as you found out.

Thanks ooermissus. I think after 7 pages of "advice" from the OP my first post on page 1 of this thread applies.

Mrs Peril and I might have a nice dry white from the co-op tonight. I know my place.

MattC59

VTech wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

You just can't help yourself, can you Vtech........

Help what?
The guy is obviously clever, im trying to teach him to use the brains more productively.

You don't seem to be able to keep yourself from still going on about your wealth (was there any need to show the car and state that it's an un-used impulse purchase ?) and being patronising with it.

VTech

MattC59 wrote:

VTech wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

You just can't help yourself, can you Vtech........

Help what?
The guy is obviously clever, im trying to teach him to use the brains more productively.

You don't seem to be able to keep yourself from still going on about your wealth (was there any need to show the car and state that it's an un-used impulse purchase ?) and being patronising with it.

But it was, and it is.
You could say its a bit like when you have entered so many of my posts with a single intention, I could call that weird just like you to me about posting a pic of the car.
My offer was genuine though, he is welcome round to take it for a spin if it will help him vent the aggression.

ooermissus

VTech wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

I did a quick google on lafite. It was about £2K for 6 bottles in bond. I don't have that sort of disposable income, I guess I'm out.

You don't have to pay anywhere near that for futures, you can buy next years stock at significantly lower prices than that...

Still wondering where you're getting the cheap Lafite from - prices that aren't 'anywhere near' the en primeur price.

VTech

ooermissus wrote:

VTech wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

I did a quick google on lafite. It was about £2K for 6 bottles in bond. I don't have that sort of disposable income, I guess I'm out.

You don't have to pay anywhere near that for futures, you can buy next years stock at significantly lower prices than that...

Still wondering where you're getting the cheap Lafite from - prices that aren't 'anywhere near' the en primeur price.

Yesterday I was a liar, today, after being proven otherwise you require my advice. Build relationships, you wont believe how far you go from such encounters, I know a lot of people say this without giving it real thought but I have found that it really is a case of who you know and not what you know.
A friend of mine purchased a piece of land in london that no one wanted, 2 months later london won the olympics and needed that land for the village.

ooermissus

VTech wrote:

Yesterday I was a liar, today, after being proven otherwise you require my advice. Build relationships, you wont believe how far you go from such encounters, I know a lot of people say this without giving it real thought but I have found that it really is a case of who you know and not what you know.

So you're claiming that you have contacts who let you have wine at a price that's substantially below the one that's available to the wine trade on the very first day it's available en primeur? That claim is very, very hard to believe - especially for a wine that has been the subject of so much speculation in recent years. It would be like me claiming I had a broker who offered me Apple shares at half price.

VTech

No, nothing of the sort and you wont goad me into revealing what in fact can be found with little to no work on google.
Maybe it depends on what you also refer to as substantial ? Does that mean you think I get lafite at £50/bottle ?
If you buy, buy regularly and pay up front you get better deals but having answered your question your next defence is me mentioning money in this reply.

MattC59

VTech wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

VTech wrote:

MattC59 wrote:

You just can't help yourself, can you Vtech........

Help what?
The guy is obviously clever, im trying to teach him to use the brains more productively.

You don't seem to be able to keep yourself from still going on about your wealth (was there any need to show the car and state that it's an un-used impulse purchase ?) and being patronising with it.

But it was, and it is.
You could say its a bit like when you have entered so many of my posts with a single intention, I could call that weird just like you to me about posting a pic of the car.
My offer was genuine though, he is welcome round to take it for a spin if it will help him vent the aggression.

My intention being ? And in which posts ?

ooermissus

Yellow Peril said that he couldn't afford £2k for 6 bottles. Your reply:

Vtech wrote:

You don't have to pay anywhere near that for futures

Here's a report on the last release of en primeur Lafite: "The price to negociants is 350 euros + 2% courtage and in theory it should sell to the trade at around 420 euros."

That's £1900 to negociants or £2190 to the trade. So, the question stands, how on earth can you claim to have not had to pay anywhere near that? Especially when this vintage was a third cheaper than the previous one.

VTech

You guys pick and chose what people write to further your efforts of creating none sense.
My quote about futures didnt relate to lafite, it's. it limited to this group.
The other part is one that I can't win, if I told you I have millions of pounds of wines (I don't) you would revert to the money argument. It's futile.

ooermissus

VTech wrote:

You guys pick and chose what people write to further your efforts of creating none sense.
My quote about futures didnt relate to lafite, it's. it limited to this group.

You just make stuff up whenever anyone questions your wilder and more vainglorious assertions - and then accuse them of misquoting you. Here's what you said:

VTech wrote:

Yellow Peril wrote:

I did a quick google on lafite. It was about £2K for 6 bottles in bond. I don't have that sort of disposable income, I guess I'm out.

You don't have to pay anywhere near that for futures, you can buy next years stock at significantly lower prices than that....

Pretty unambiguous. It's as if that F1 place where you work has coated you with some amazing new material that is utterly impermeable to fact. :shock:

team47b

this thread has been going for 24 hours, don't you lot have bikes to ride, it's the weekend FFS

ooermissus

team47b wrote:

this thread has been going for 24 hours, don't you lot have bikes to ride, it's the weekend FFS

Hah hah. Stuck working - a long long way from home.

team47b

Actually I have just seen the weather on another thread so I take back my comment about going out on your bikes :shock:

Gabbo

Vtech,

Maybe it's a good idea to close your current BR account and start afresh? I think you are already prejudged by a few posters on here and that is hurting your chance of having a good, civil conversation on here. Sorry for being patronising, but this is just my opinion.

Anyway, it's not about winning an argument or proving someone wrong. You give your advice, your opinion, and if they decide that they disagree, then agree to disagree. It's that easy. Life is too short to argue with the missus, let alone some people on a internet forum you are never going to meet.

wishitwasallflat

Frank the tank wrote:

I don't know about others but I reckon this thread's turned a bit ugly. I hasten to add, I'm not offended by it or asking for the mods to take any sort of action (just to clarify).

Don't they all?

wishitwasallflat

MattC59 wrote:

You just can't help yourself, can you Vtech........

I think he could but doesn't want to - either he is the ultimate Troll or he just is (as someone esle pointed out so fabulously) impervious to facts.


VTech ask yourself why do all your posts tend to end up like this? I have never in the four years or so Ive been on this forum seen anyone who post so much about money and material things (other than expensive bikes of course). I can accept it may be unconscious on your part but you are bringing this stuff on yourself.

I would be willing to bet most folk on here are not wealthy and your posting of your lavish consumption is gauranteed to cause offence.

For example - there is no way I could afford to invest in wine I have two young kids and struggle every month to reach the next pay check without increasing my already (almost overwhelming debt) - this is reality for quite a lot of folk. Post about expensive cars you don't drive and all the other consumerism will bring this reaction every time.

Well I've told you this several times before and its obvious you ain't acting on it so - the really intersting question is why am I still bothering? Strangly I feel quite fond of you despite my politics and jealousy of your money and lifestyle. Very intersting for me - pleae keep posting but for goodness sake wise up as to why you get the replies you get.

EKIMIKE

team47b wrote:

this thread has been going for 24 hours, don't you lot have bikes to ride, it's the weekend FFS

Very well said. Unfortunately I continue to suffer from a mystery illness, otherwise i would have been out both days and only would have looked on here for a Pro Race fix.

Anyway, that's no justification or trolling VTech - that's just for jokes (as opposed to venting anger as the myth would go ).