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More sense than I've seen from Toynbee for a long time0
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It's normally twaddle, and I'd be worried if I agreed with her. Interesting times.bompington said:More sense than I've seen from Toynbee for a long time
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Explain how asking for id erodes voters rights.kingstongraham said:
And to introduce voter ID requirements to erode voting rights.surrey_commuter said:
Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.john80 said:Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.
Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?0 -
People have voted on the basis of there manifesto which is an influx of cash. Obviously if they dont do it then you will have a point but it is a bit early to judge.surrey_commuter said:
Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.john80 said:Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.
Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?0 -
If you don't drive, or have a passport what photo ID would you use if you wanted to vote? Guess which people tend to not have either.john80 said:
Explain how asking for id erodes voters rights.kingstongraham said:
And to introduce voter ID requirements to erode voting rights.surrey_commuter said:
Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.john80 said:Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.
Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
It would not be not a one party state, but it's the oppositions problem if they are crap at opposing.briantrumpet said:
I see little acceptance amongst my Corbyn-believing friends that he and his message were a liability - it's Brexit, the mainstream media, and the electoral system that are to blame. I think they are happier being 'ideologically pure' and without power than compromising and getting elected. It doesn't bode well, unless you admire one-party states.Stevo_666 said:
They could. If you listen to senior Labour figures this morning, they are blaming everyone but themselves. It was Brexit (OK that was part of the reason but they chose to sit on the fence), it was the right wing media, it was Tory lies etc etc. Nothing to do with financial illiteracy, hard left policies or a leader unfit for high office.tangled_metal said:Will it be 5 years though? You can't trust the fixed term these days.
Am I wrong in thinking corbynistas have set up the more centrist among the leadership contenders up for the blame? It's not Corbyn it's Brexit. Who is Brexit in labour? Keir Starmer with the help of Yvette fielding. They're planning a hand off from Corbyn to someone from his side to keep the good fight going.
Can labour be so stupid?
In case I am right, keep the good fight from within labour stevo.
Keep it up lefties, we could do with another hard left Labour leadership
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-manifesto-antisemitism-brexitLabour was disastrously, catastrophically bad, an agony to behold. A coterie of Corbynites cared more about gripping power within the party than saving the country by winning the election. The national executive committee, a slate of nodding Corbynite place-persons, disgraced the party with its sectarian decisions. Once it was plain in every poll and focus group that Corbynism was electoral arsenic, they should have propelled him out, but electoral victory was secondary.
Should we laugh or cry at Corbyn’s announcement that he wouldn’t stand for another election? He should have gone before dawn. Any possible or impossible successor will clear out that Len McCluskey clique – Karie Murphy, Seumas Milne, Andrew Murray and others who propped up the old fellow to secure their own power base – with results worse than Michael Foot. Watch them try to divert blame onto “Corbyn-disloyalists”, remainers and ”Blairites”.
Fyi your Corbyn believing friends sound as deluded as Corbyn."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
You already know.john80 said:
Explain how asking for id erodes voters rights.kingstongraham said:
And to introduce voter ID requirements to erode voting rights.surrey_commuter said:
Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.john80 said:Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.
Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?0 -
Brilliant tweet from Margaret Hodge about Jeremy Corbyn wanting a 'period of reflection' following Labour's drubbing at the polls:
"I've reflected. You failed. Now please stand down."
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Part of the delusion is that it's better to be ideologically pure than in power. They were tearing into just about the only Labour MP in the South West (Ben Bradshaw, in Exeter) because he was in Blair's government, and hasn't embraced Corbynism. The fact that he's a really hard-working MP for Exeter, and has been re-elected yet again seems to count for nothing.Stevo_666 said:It would not be not a one party state, but it's the oppositions problem if they are censored at opposing.
Fyi your Corbyn believing friends sound as deluded as Corbyn.0 -
Just reading Marina Hyde. Memorable line:Corbynism has turned out to be for the very, very few. Which is to say, nobody at all.
For all the piety, they have helped precisely no-one out of poverty or any of the other things they claim to fight against.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Quite so. More incoming fire from the Graun:rjsterry said:Just reading Marina Hyde. Memorable line:
Corbynism has turned out to be for the very, very few. Which is to say, nobody at all.
For all the piety, they have helped precisely no-one out of poverty or any of the other things they claim to fight against.
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/dec/13/corbynism-labour-left-partyWell, guess what. Labour’s “radical” manifesto of 2019 achieved precisely nothing. Not one proposal in it will be implemented, not one pound in it will be spent. It is worthless. And if judged not by the academic standard of “expanding the discourse”, but by the hard, practical measure of improving actual people’s actual lives, those hate figures of Corbynism – Tony Blair and Gordon Brown – achieved more in four hours than Corbyn achieved in four years. Why? Because they did what it took to win power.
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How do you know they did not vote on the basis of not increasing taxes and raising the NI threshold?john80 said:
People have voted on the basis of there manifesto which is an influx of cash. Obviously if they dont do it then you will have a point but it is a bit early to judge.surrey_commuter said:
Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.john80 said:Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.
Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?
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How is it that the leftie press and politicians are only now starting to see the problems with Corbyn's ideology? It was plain to see from the start hence Stevo starting this thread!0
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You've got to feel sorry for that group of brainwashed kids that look like Corbyn's version of the Hitler Youth and act like his protection when he goes out in public. They need to find some religious cult leader or something now.0
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There were one or two rumblings...Pross said:How is it that the leftie press and politicians are only now starting to see the problems with Corbyn's ideology? It was plain to see from the start hence Stevo starting this thread!
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/05/jeremy-corbyn-blame-meltdown-labour-leader
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I thought it was the 50000 new nurses with very little new spending?surrey_commuter said:
How do you know they did not vote on the basis of not increasing taxes and raising the NI threshold?john80 said:
People have voted on the basis of there manifesto which is an influx of cash. Obviously if they dont do it then you will have a point but it is a bit early to judge.surrey_commuter said:
Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.john80 said:Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.
Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?0 -
That is a bit of a small group you got there. This is not america you know. Probably a bit better than a family patriarch filling in the entire families postal votes and sending them in.rjsterry said:
If you don't drive, or have a passport what photo ID would you use if you wanted to vote? Guess which people tend to not have either.john80 said:
Explain how asking for id erodes voters rights.kingstongraham said:
And to introduce voter ID requirements to erode voting rights.surrey_commuter said:
Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.john80 said:Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.
Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?0 -
Plenty have been saying it from the start and getting abused as Blairites, etc. every time they do.Pross said:How is it that the leftie press and politicians are only now starting to see the problems with Corbyn's ideology? It was plain to see from the start hence Stevo starting this thread!
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Nobody knows why individuals they have never met voted one way or the other. They probably did at some point take some notice of the manifesto claims and voted in their own self interest. The lack of laboirs ability to see the majorities self interest is hardly another parties issue.surrey_commuter said:
How do you know they did not vote on the basis of not increasing taxes and raising the NI threshold?john80 said:
People have voted on the basis of there manifesto which is an influx of cash. Obviously if they dont do it then you will have a point but it is a bit early to judge.surrey_commuter said:
Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.john80 said:Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.
Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?0 -
There were rumblings back in 1987...briantrumpet said:
There were one or two rumblings...Pross said:How is it that the leftie press and politicians are only now starting to see the problems with Corbyn's ideology? It was plain to see from the start hence Stevo starting this thread!
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/may/05/jeremy-corbyn-blame-meltdown-labour-leader
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
3.5 million electors don't have a photo ID. 11 million if you restrict to passport and driving licence.john80 said:
That is a bit of a small group you got there. This is not america you know. Probably a bit better than a family patriarch filling in the entire families postal votes and sending them in.rjsterry said:
If you don't drive, or have a passport what photo ID would you use if you wanted to vote? Guess which people tend to not have either.john80 said:
Explain how asking for id erodes voters rights.kingstongraham said:
And to introduce voter ID requirements to erode voting rights.surrey_commuter said:
Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.john80 said:Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.
Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?
And you want photo ID to stop fraud in postal votes? How does that work?
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Regardless of the number who don't possess either it's hardly a legitimate reason to withhold someone's right to vote.john80 said:
That is a bit of a small group you got there. This is not america you know. Probably a bit better than a family patriarch filling in the entire families postal votes and sending them in.rjsterry said:
If you don't drive, or have a passport what photo ID would you use if you wanted to vote? Guess which people tend to not have either.john80 said:
Explain how asking for id erodes voters rights.kingstongraham said:
And to introduce voter ID requirements to erode voting rights.surrey_commuter said:
Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.john80 said:Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.
Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Is it not just a backdoor way of introducing the ID cards that they have wanted for some time?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Winning is too bourgeois for them.rjsterry said:Just reading Marina Hyde. Memorable line:
Corbynism has turned out to be for the very, very few. Which is to say, nobody at all.
For all the piety, they have helped precisely no-one out of poverty or any of the other things they claim to fight against.0 -
Corbyn lost because he has a Shimano groupset on his bike. Instinctively everyone realised that a leader not riding Campagnolo has serious problems with making the right strategic decisions.0
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You are contradicting your initial point.john80 said:
Nobody knows why individuals they have never met voted one way or the other. They probably did at some point take some notice of the manifesto claims and voted in their own self interest. The lack of laboirs ability to see the majorities self interest is hardly another parties issue.surrey_commuter said:
How do you know they did not vote on the basis of not increasing taxes and raising the NI threshold?john80 said:
People have voted on the basis of there manifesto which is an influx of cash. Obviously if they dont do it then you will have a point but it is a bit early to judge.surrey_commuter said:
Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.john80 said:Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.
Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?
Labour were offering far more free stuff than the Tories. It could easily be argued that voters in the north east have taken a very principled stand and not considered their own interests at all.
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Always worth reminding labour people that in most people’s life time, Blair is the only leader who actually won.0
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rick_chasey said:
Winning is too bourgeois for them.rjsterry said:Just reading Marina Hyde. Memorable line:
Corbynism has turned out to be for the very, very few. Which is to say, nobody at all.
For all the piety, they have helped precisely no-one out of poverty or any of the other things they claim to fight against.
Bizarrely I can see their argument. Why bother winning without a mandate to do what you believe in.0 -
The opprobrium levelled at the LDs daring to stand in close constituencies and so letting the Tories win is particularly juicy.surrey_commuter said:rick_chasey said:
Winning is too bourgeois for them.rjsterry said:Just reading Marina Hyde. Memorable line:
Corbynism has turned out to be for the very, very few. Which is to say, nobody at all.
For all the piety, they have helped precisely no-one out of poverty or any of the other things they claim to fight against.
Bizarrely I can see their argument. Why bother winning without a mandate to do what you believe in.
If you don’t like the system you can always change it.0
