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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 44,105 Lives Here

    rjsterry said:

    Just reading Marina Hyde. Memorable line:

    Corbynism has turned out to be for the very, very few. Which is to say, nobody at all.


    For all the piety, they have helped precisely no-one out of poverty or any of the other things they claim to fight against.
    Winning is too bourgeois for them.

    Bizarrely I can see their argument. Why bother winning without a mandate to do what you believe in.
    The opprobrium levelled at the LDs daring to stand in close constituencies and so letting the Tories win is particularly juicy.

    If you don’t like the system you can always change it.
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 1,804
    Stevo_666 said:

    john80 said:

    Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost.

    Not sure if you're referring to Cake Stop or the Labour party?
    Loved this :smile:
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 9,967

    rjsterry said:

    Just reading Marina Hyde. Memorable line:

    Corbynism has turned out to be for the very, very few. Which is to say, nobody at all.


    For all the piety, they have helped precisely no-one out of poverty or any of the other things they claim to fight against.
    Winning is too bourgeois for them.

    Bizarrely I can see their argument. Why bother winning without a mandate to do what you believe in.
    The opprobrium levelled at the LDs daring to stand in close constituencies and so letting the Tories win is particularly juicy.

    If you don’t like the system you can always change it.
    As has been pointed out many times before, the "winning" party is not going to change the system that allowed them to "win" and so we go on.....
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 44,105 Lives Here
    Not sure you got what I was driving at
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,527
    edited December 2019

    rjsterry said:

    Just reading Marina Hyde. Memorable line:

    Corbynism has turned out to be for the very, very few. Which is to say, nobody at all.


    For all the piety, they have helped precisely no-one out of poverty or any of the other things they claim to fight against.
    Winning is too bourgeois for them.

    Bizarrely I can see their argument. Why bother winning without a mandate to do what you believe in.
    They claim to be for the many. That is their core belief, I think, or should be. I think it was Jonathan Freedland's line: Blair and Brown achieved more in 4 hours [for the many] than Corbyn has achieved in 4 years.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • Amazingly, the message "if you don't agree with everything we stand for you might as well censored off and vote Tory" hasn't won the day.
    and then the next thing you know
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 9,967

    Not sure you got what I was driving at

    Oh. I thought it was a PR issue. Sorry. It is a stupid system that we have though to go off on a tangent....
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,527

    rjsterry said:

    Just reading Marina Hyde. Memorable line:

    Corbynism has turned out to be for the very, very few. Which is to say, nobody at all.


    For all the piety, they have helped precisely no-one out of poverty or any of the other things they claim to fight against.
    Winning is too bourgeois for them.

    Bizarrely I can see their argument. Why bother winning without a mandate to do what you believe in.
    The opprobrium levelled at the LDs daring to stand in close constituencies and so letting the Tories win is particularly juicy.

    If you don’t like the system you can always change it.
    Everyone else's fault of course. I did see something about Corbynists campaigning hard in Golders Green - not because they thought they could win, but just to spite Luciana Berger for daring to leave. Took it with a pinch of salt at the time, but given the above perhaps not.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • john80john80 Posts: 671

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.

    Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.

    Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?
    People have voted on the basis of there manifesto which is an influx of cash. Obviously if they dont do it then you will have a point but it is a bit early to judge.
    How do you know they did not vote on the basis of not increasing taxes and raising the NI threshold?

    Nobody knows why individuals they have never met voted one way or the other. They probably did at some point take some notice of the manifesto claims and voted in their own self interest. The lack of laboirs ability to see the majorities self interest is hardly another parties issue.
    You are contradicting your initial point.

    Labour were offering far more free stuff than the Tories. It could easily be argued that voters in the north east have taken a very principled stand and not considered their own interests at all.
    Whilst labour claimed that only the top 5% would be affected i suspect that a lot of voters put this at closer to 60% would be adversly affected bu a labour government looking at the pledges.
  • john80john80 Posts: 671
    rjsterry said:

    john80 said:

    rjsterry said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.

    Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.

    Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?
    And to introduce voter ID requirements to erode voting rights.
    Explain how asking for id erodes voters rights.
    If you don't drive, or have a passport what photo ID would you use if you wanted to vote? Guess which people tend to not have either.
    That is a bit of a small group you got there. This is not america you know. Probably a bit better than a family patriarch filling in the entire families postal votes and sending them in.
    Regardless of the number who don't possess either it's hardly a legitimate reason to withhold someone's right to vote.
    I think i will wait to scutinise the legislation before jumping to conclusions on this one. If all of the bike radar forum did the same and then conveyed your points to your mp you might find they get a better outcome.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,013

    rjsterry said:

    Just reading Marina Hyde. Memorable line:

    Corbynism has turned out to be for the very, very few. Which is to say, nobody at all.


    For all the piety, they have helped precisely no-one out of poverty or any of the other things they claim to fight against.
    Winning is too bourgeois for them.

    Bizarrely I can see their argument. Why bother winning without a mandate to do what you believe in.
    Fair point. Let's keep it that way.
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    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.

    Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.

    Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?
    People have voted on the basis of there manifesto which is an influx of cash. Obviously if they dont do it then you will have a point but it is a bit early to judge.
    How do you know they did not vote on the basis of not increasing taxes and raising the NI threshold?

    Nobody knows why individuals they have never met voted one way or the other. They probably did at some point take some notice of the manifesto claims and voted in their own self interest. The lack of laboirs ability to see the majorities self interest is hardly another parties issue.
    You are contradicting your initial point.

    Labour were offering far more free stuff than the Tories. It could easily be argued that voters in the north east have taken a very principled stand and not considered their own interests at all.
    Whilst labour claimed that only the top 5% would be affected i suspect that a lot of voters put this at closer to 60% would be adversly affected bu a labour government looking at the pledges.
    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    john80 said:

    Much as it is funny to watch a group of people with limited grasp of the population unable to see why the lost. This does have wider consequences. The Tories have been given a mandate to deliver Brexit but also to improve public services and invest in them in line with their manifesto. We need a Labour party that look like a serious group of individuals that will hold them to this. Many of their new voters will not be giving their support in 5 years time if they cannot deliver the improvements they have promised. If they do however deliver the manifesto then it will be the centrist government the majority are looking for and Labour will be forced to fight another election on either an non electable left wing agenda or a very competitive middle ground and they will lose again. Contrary to popular belief the public are generally quite well informed on what is likely to work for the majority. It is not rampant winner takes all capitalism on the right and nor is it socialism on the left.

    Are you sure that people think the Tories are going to invest in public services? that would be incredibly naive of them.

    Why not mention that they have a mandate to erode workers rights?
    People have voted on the basis of there manifesto which is an influx of cash. Obviously if they dont do it then you will have a point but it is a bit early to judge.
    How do you know they did not vote on the basis of not increasing taxes and raising the NI threshold?

    Nobody knows why individuals they have never met voted one way or the other. They probably did at some point take some notice of the manifesto claims and voted in their own self interest. The lack of laboirs ability to see the majorities self interest is hardly another parties issue.
    You are contradicting your initial point.

    Labour were offering far more free stuff than the Tories. It could easily be argued that voters in the north east have taken a very principled stand and not considered their own interests at all.
    Whilst labour claimed that only the top 5% would be affected i suspect that a lot of voters put this at closer to 60% would be adversly affected bu a labour government looking at the pledges.
    It is strange that everybody thinks Boris is lying to other people whereas JC is lying to their detriment.
    I suspect that if you are earning less than £50k you will be worse off under the Tories than Labour
  • slowmartslowmart Posts: 3,740
    For the first time in my life I voted Labour, it wasn’t without conflict or having to put some serious reservations to one side, in the end it reduced down to a single question, I believe Corbyn, as woeful as he is, would done less damage to the UK.

    Now we have Boris in charge heading full speed out the trading block which is our largest trading partner with a new cohort of true believers of MP’s which have shifted the Tories significantly to the right and a Parliamentary majority of 80.

    Happy censored Christmas

    And God created the bicycle, so that man could use it as a means for work and to help him negotiate life's complicated journey.
  • slowmart said:

    For the first time in my life I voted Labour, it wasn’t without conflict or having to put some serious reservations to one side, in the end it reduced down to a single question, I believe Corbyn, as woeful as he is, would done less damage to the UK.

    Expect to be called a Corbyn fanboi now, and be told that your previous allegiances weren't real.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,013
    slowmart said:

    For the first time in my life I voted Labour, it wasn’t without conflict or having to put some serious reservations to one side, in the end it reduced down to a single question, I believe Corbyn, as woeful as he is, would done less damage to the UK.

    Now we have Boris in charge heading full speed out the trading block which is our largest trading partner with a new cohort of true believers of MP’s which have shifted the Tories significantly to the right and a Parliamentary majority of 80.

    Happy censored Christmas

    As Brian mentions - Corbyn fanboi ;)

    Not good timing, joining the lefties just as they become even bigger losers than before.
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    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,527
    Stevo_666 said:

    slowmart said:

    For the first time in my life I voted Labour, it wasn’t without conflict or having to put some serious reservations to one side, in the end it reduced down to a single question, I believe Corbyn, as woeful as he is, would done less damage to the UK.

    Now we have Boris in charge heading full speed out the trading block which is our largest trading partner with a new cohort of true believers of MP’s which have shifted the Tories significantly to the right and a Parliamentary majority of 80.

    Happy censored Christmas

    As Brian mentions - Corbyn fanboi ;)

    Not good timing, joining the lefties just as they become even bigger losers than before.
    I thought it was you that joined. He just lent them a vote. Plenty of nose-holding on both sides of this unpopularity contest
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • morstarmorstar Posts: 2,286
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50793959
    So despite the fact we haven’t had a left wing government elected since the 70’s, we need to retain a left wing opposition.
    Reinforces the assumptions in the two threads that Labour are likely to remain irrelevant for the next cycle.
    Zero sympathy for any labour complaints about split votes under fptp. They had 13 years to change the system in recent history. Minor parties who complain about fptp have my complete support (even UKIP), but not labour.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,013
    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    slowmart said:

    For the first time in my life I voted Labour, it wasn’t without conflict or having to put some serious reservations to one side, in the end it reduced down to a single question, I believe Corbyn, as woeful as he is, would done less damage to the UK.

    Now we have Boris in charge heading full speed out the trading block which is our largest trading partner with a new cohort of true believers of MP’s which have shifted the Tories significantly to the right and a Parliamentary majority of 80.

    Happy censored Christmas

    As Brian mentions - Corbyn fanboi ;)

    Not good timing, joining the lefties just as they become even bigger losers than before.
    I thought it was you that joined. He just lent them a vote. Plenty of nose-holding on both sides of this unpopularity contest
    So what? Its the result that counts. Hence my comment.

    Maybe it's time for you to consider the old saying 'if you can't beat them, join them' :)
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    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • mrb123mrb123 Posts: 2,146
    Boris won't lurch right, he's too canny and unprincipled for that.

    With his majority he has no need to pander to the fringes of his party any more. His natural move will be to the centre to fill the huge vacuum that Labour have left and will continue to leave.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,527
    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    slowmart said:

    For the first time in my life I voted Labour, it wasn’t without conflict or having to put some serious reservations to one side, in the end it reduced down to a single question, I believe Corbyn, as woeful as he is, would done less damage to the UK.

    Now we have Boris in charge heading full speed out the trading block which is our largest trading partner with a new cohort of true believers of MP’s which have shifted the Tories significantly to the right and a Parliamentary majority of 80.

    Happy censored Christmas

    As Brian mentions - Corbyn fanboi ;)

    Not good timing, joining the lefties just as they become even bigger losers than before.
    I thought it was you that joined. He just lent them a vote. Plenty of nose-holding on both sides of this unpopularity contest
    So what? Its the result that counts. Hence my comment.

    Maybe it's time for you to consider the old saying 'if you can't beat them, join them' :)
    What on earth for? Seriously, why would I vote for a party that disadvantages me and my business? Is bragging that you voted for the winning party important?
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • Stevo_666 said:



    Maybe it's time for you to consider the old saying 'if you can't beat them, join them' :)

    On spending and the economy, the conservatives have moved to the left. Trade barriers, increased spending and market interventions. Those were the promises anyway, we'll see what the reality is.
    and then the next thing you know
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,013
    edited December 2019
    mrb123 said:

    Boris won't lurch right, he's too canny and unprincipled for that.

    With his majority he has no need to pander to the fringes of his party any more. His natural move will be to the centre to fill the huge vacuum that Labour have left and will continue to leave.

    But won't stop some people trying make out that they will lurch right/sell out to the US/race to the bottom etc etc [insert empty leftiebollox catchphrase of your choice]
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,013
    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    slowmart said:

    For the first time in my life I voted Labour, it wasn’t without conflict or having to put some serious reservations to one side, in the end it reduced down to a single question, I believe Corbyn, as woeful as he is, would done less damage to the UK.

    Now we have Boris in charge heading full speed out the trading block which is our largest trading partner with a new cohort of true believers of MP’s which have shifted the Tories significantly to the right and a Parliamentary majority of 80.

    Happy censored Christmas

    As Brian mentions - Corbyn fanboi ;)

    Not good timing, joining the lefties just as they become even bigger losers than before.
    I thought it was you that joined. He just lent them a vote. Plenty of nose-holding on both sides of this unpopularity contest
    So what? Its the result that counts. Hence my comment.

    Maybe it's time for you to consider the old saying 'if you can't beat them, join them' :)
    What on earth for? Seriously, why would I vote for a party that disadvantages me and my business? Is bragging that you voted for the winning party important?
    Never good to be on the losing side all the time, it makes people very negative. Just look at this place...

    Also it might give you a chance to influence the direction of the Tory party. Worked well enough with me joining Labour.
    Whippet
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    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,013
    edited December 2019

    Stevo_666 said:



    Maybe it's time for you to consider the old saying 'if you can't beat them, join them' :)

    On spending and the economy, the conservatives have moved to the left. Trade barriers, increased spending and market interventions. Those were the promises anyway, we'll see what the reality is.
    So maybe time for you to reconsider? Shed loads of Northerners can't be wrong ;)
    Whippet
    Bruiser
    Panzer
    Commuter

    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:



    Maybe it's time for you to consider the old saying 'if you can't beat them, join them' :)

    On spending and the economy, the conservatives have moved to the left. Trade barriers, increased spending and market interventions. Those were the promises anyway, we'll see what the reality is.
    So maybe time for you to reconsider? Shed loads of Northerners can't be wrong ;)
    Not as keen on the trade barriers with our nearest trading partners as you guys.

    and then the next thing you know
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,013

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:



    Maybe it's time for you to consider the old saying 'if you can't beat them, join them' :)

    On spending and the economy, the conservatives have moved to the left. Trade barriers, increased spending and market interventions. Those were the promises anyway, we'll see what the reality is.
    So maybe time for you to reconsider? Shed loads of Northerners can't be wrong ;)
    Not as keen on the trade barriers with our nearest trading partners as you guys.

    Who are 'you guys'?

    But surely the spending and the intervention appeals? Good old 'big state' stuff.
    Whippet
    Bruiser
    Panzer
    Commuter

    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:



    Maybe it's time for you to consider the old saying 'if you can't beat them, join them' :)

    On spending and the economy, the conservatives have moved to the left. Trade barriers, increased spending and market interventions. Those were the promises anyway, we'll see what the reality is.
    So maybe time for you to reconsider? Shed loads of Northerners can't be wrong ;)
    Not as keen on the trade barriers with our nearest trading partners as you guys.

    Who are 'you guys'?

    :D

    Good one.
    and then the next thing you know
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,527
    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    slowmart said:

    For the first time in my life I voted Labour, it wasn’t without conflict or having to put some serious reservations to one side, in the end it reduced down to a single question, I believe Corbyn, as woeful as he is, would done less damage to the UK.

    Now we have Boris in charge heading full speed out the trading block which is our largest trading partner with a new cohort of true believers of MP’s which have shifted the Tories significantly to the right and a Parliamentary majority of 80.

    Happy censored Christmas

    As Brian mentions - Corbyn fanboi ;)

    Not good timing, joining the lefties just as they become even bigger losers than before.
    I thought it was you that joined. He just lent them a vote. Plenty of nose-holding on both sides of this unpopularity contest
    So what? Its the result that counts. Hence my comment.

    Maybe it's time for you to consider the old saying 'if you can't beat them, join them' :)
    What on earth for? Seriously, why would I vote for a party that disadvantages me and my business? Is bragging that you voted for the winning party important?
    Never good to be on the losing side all the time, it makes people very negative. Just look at this place...

    Also it might give you a chance to influence the direction of the Tory party. Worked well enough with me joining Labour.
    As posted on the other thread your £3 made no difference whatsoever. He would have been leader even if Miliband hadn't changed the rules. FWIW, I don't consider myself to be on a side but I have voted for the winning candidate in the 2010, 2015 and 2017 elections. I have no influence in any other constituencies nor ambition to get further involved in politics. My new Conservative MP scraped in by about 600 votes against the LD's Brexit spokesperson, which was not exactly surprising considering the area leans towards Leave. I think the other local factor was the LD controlled council bringing in some parking restrictions, which sounds laughably trivial in comparison.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    1980s BSA 10sp

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • ProssPross Posts: 21,113
    mrb123 said:

    Boris won't lurch right, he's too canny and unprincipled for that.

    With his majority he has no need to pander to the fringes of his party any more. His natural move will be to the centre to fill the huge vacuum that Labour have left and will continue to leave.

    Yep, with hindsight a healthy Tory majority is probably the best result there could have been other than a strongly anti-Brexit coalition. I think Boris does whatever is best for him but probably isn't too far right generally and that majority keeps the loons being fairly irrelevant. If he wants to keep the northern seats he won he'll have to move very much to the centre on most things (immigration is probably one area where more right wing policies will prove popular though unfortunately). My main concern is whether they've got more right wing MPs now due to the cull of the centrists in the last few months.
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,087
    Voted Labour.

    Actually fortunate enough* to be better off with a Tory government.

    Gonna buy some Euros, but not too hastily - let's see what the £ does over the next few days.

    Struggling with the football-style partisan reactions from some - that's just weird for me.

    *some hard work in there as well, but I appreciate my privelege
    Ben

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