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  • most business owners are more concerned about taxes on capital gains than income surely

    If you were valuing a business would you not be interested in net profit?

    valuations of amazon, uber etc suggest otherwise.....
    I asked about you valuing a business
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 44,147 Lives Here
    No idea. If I knew about valuing businesses I'd be earning a d!cktonne more than I do.
  • No idea. If I knew about valuing businesses I'd be earning a d!cktonne more than I do.

    keep it simple, if there was a 80% tax on rec cons do you think it would impact the value of the business and therefore the size of any capital gain
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,571

    No idea. If I knew about valuing businesses I'd be earning a d!cktonne more than I do.

    There are some fairly basic formulae floating around to value a bog standard Limited Company. Multiples of the average of 3 years profit for example.
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 44,147 Lives Here
    Yeah that ain’t gonna land you a PE role is it?

  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,571

    Yeah that ain’t gonna land you a PE role is it?

    Well no, but we're talking about posting on BR, not making a career out of it.
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 44,147 Lives Here
    🤷🏻‍♂️
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110
    We do quite a bit of valuing businesses as we are quite acquisitive currently.

    There are quite a few ways to skin the cat so to say and it will vary depending on a fair few factors such as (obviously) what you are trying to value and who is doing the valuing as different businesses have different preferences.

    Difficult to summarise briefly, but:
    - The multiple of some profit measure is pretty common for 'standard' type businesses that have a profit history of some sort. Some use EBITDA, some use PBT, some use PAT etc. And the can multiples vary a lot.
    - Another common one is discounted cash flow which is a forward looking method that looks at the forecast future cash flows so has PAT as part of it.
    - Some use balance sheet values with some premium/discount to NAV where the profit multiple doesn't work of the balance sheet is way larger than a profit based valuation
    - Where this goes out the window in the internet companies, some of the tech giants where really it's based on expectation of future profits - or sometimes hope. which maximises potential for fingers to get burnt. It was 'fun' trying to value companies in the internet bubble in the first part of the last decade.
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  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 8,359

    most business owners are more concerned about taxes on capital gains than income surely

    Most business owners receive dividends in some form which are income. The business itself pays corporation tax which reduces the divdends.

    There are, of course, some start-ups whose goal is to sell without ever paying a dividend. They would be interested in capital gains.

    There are also lots of funds that own businesses that just don't pay any tax.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,571
    edited November 2019

    most business owners are more concerned about taxes on capital gains than income surely

    Most business owners receive dividends in some form which are income. The business itself pays corporation tax which reduces the divdends.

    There are, of course, some start-ups whose goal is to sell without ever paying a dividend. They would be interested in capital gains.

    There are also lots of funds that own businesses that just don't pay any tax.
    This. Most UK businesses, in fact 96% of them have fewer than 10 staff and CGT will only be a concern for the owner when they sell up and retire.
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  • TheBigBeanTheBigBean Posts: 8,359
    rjsterry said:

    most business owners are more concerned about taxes on capital gains than income surely

    Most business owners receive dividends in some form which are income. The business itself pays corporation tax which reduces the divdends.

    There are, of course, some start-ups whose goal is to sell without ever paying a dividend. They would be interested in capital gains.

    There are also lots of funds that own businesses that just don't pay any tax.
    This. Most UK businesses, in fact 96% of them have fewer than 10 staff and CGT will only be a concern for the owner when they sell up and retire.
    This is the reality, but I wonder how many believe their company is the next Uber, Google or Amazon. I've come across quite a few.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110
    rjsterry said:

    most business owners are more concerned about taxes on capital gains than income surely

    Most business owners receive dividends in some form which are income. The business itself pays corporation tax which reduces the divdends.

    There are, of course, some start-ups whose goal is to sell without ever paying a dividend. They would be interested in capital gains.

    There are also lots of funds that own businesses that just don't pay any tax.
    This. Most UK businesses, in fact 96% of them have fewer than 10 staff and CGT will only be a concern for the owner when they sell up and retire.
    Many companies of this type give their staff equity or options as part of their package with the possibility to make gains on exit (trade sale/float etc). It enables them to pay less as salary in the start up phase which clearly helps cash flow etc.
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110
    Looks like tactical voting may not be the saviour that some hope it will be:
    https://telegraph.co.uk/politics/0/tactical-voting-general-election-2019-guide/
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110
    Interesting video of a meeting between John McDonnell and John Caudwell (bilionaire founder of Phones 4U).
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-50691677/billionaire-john-caudwell-goes-head-to-head-with-labour-s-john-mcdonnell

    Very amusing watching McDonnell in total denial when Caudwell told him straight that:
    a. If Labour had been in power when Caudwell was starting up he wouldn't have started his business in the first place
    b. If Labour do get in, then he and many other wealthy entrepreneurs like him are thinking of leaving the country.

    Take that, leftie boy :)
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  • Stevo_666 said:

    Interesting video of a meeting between John McDonnell and John Caudwell (bilionaire founder of Phones 4U).
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-50691677/billionaire-john-caudwell-goes-head-to-head-with-labour-s-john-mcdonnell

    Very amusing watching McDonnell in total denial when Caudwell told him straight that:
    a. If Labour had been in power when Caudwell was starting up he wouldn't have started his business in the first place
    b. If Labour do get in, then he and many other wealthy entrepreneurs like him are thinking of leaving the country.

    Take that, leftie boy :)

    I think he's forgotten that he wasn't a billionaire when he started his business.
    and then the next thing you know
  • Also, I don't think he should be able to offset his charitable giving against tax.
    and then the next thing you know
  • elbowlohelbowloh Posts: 1,994
    edited December 2019
    Stevo_666 said:

    Interesting video of a meeting between John McDonnell and John Caudwell (bilionaire founder of Phones 4U).
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-50691677/billionaire-john-caudwell-goes-head-to-head-with-labour-s-john-mcdonnell

    Very amusing watching McDonnell in total denial when Caudwell told him straight that:
    a. If Labour had been in power when Caudwell was starting up he wouldn't have started his business in the first place
    b. If Labour do get in, then he and many other wealthy entrepreneurs like him are thinking of leaving the country.

    Take that, leftie boy :)

    a) what, out of spite?

    So, no businesses are started under labour governments? Ridiculous comment.
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110
    elbowloh said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Interesting video of a meeting between John McDonnell and John Caudwell (bilionaire founder of Phones 4U).
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-50691677/billionaire-john-caudwell-goes-head-to-head-with-labour-s-john-mcdonnell

    Very amusing watching McDonnell in total denial when Caudwell told him straight that:
    a. If Labour had been in power when Caudwell was starting up he wouldn't have started his business in the first place
    b. If Labour do get in, then he and many other wealthy entrepreneurs like him are thinking of leaving the country.

    Take that, leftie boy :)

    a) what, out of spite?

    So, no businesses are started under labour governments? Ridiculous comment.
    a. No, but it's always good to see a hard leftie being educated in the ways of business and the real world.

    b. No he didn't say that. He said he would not have set up his own business if the current Labour lot had been in power at the time.
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110

    Stevo_666 said:

    Interesting video of a meeting between John McDonnell and John Caudwell (bilionaire founder of Phones 4U).
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-50691677/billionaire-john-caudwell-goes-head-to-head-with-labour-s-john-mcdonnell

    Very amusing watching McDonnell in total denial when Caudwell told him straight that:
    a. If Labour had been in power when Caudwell was starting up he wouldn't have started his business in the first place
    b. If Labour do get in, then he and many other wealthy entrepreneurs like him are thinking of leaving the country.

    Take that, leftie boy :)

    I think he's forgotten that he wasn't a billionaire when he started his business.
    No, not based on the reasons he gave in the video.
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  • Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Interesting video of a meeting between John McDonnell and John Caudwell (bilionaire founder of Phones 4U).
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-50691677/billionaire-john-caudwell-goes-head-to-head-with-labour-s-john-mcdonnell

    Very amusing watching McDonnell in total denial when Caudwell told him straight that:
    a. If Labour had been in power when Caudwell was starting up he wouldn't have started his business in the first place
    b. If Labour do get in, then he and many other wealthy entrepreneurs like him are thinking of leaving the country.

    Take that, leftie boy :)

    I think he's forgotten that he wasn't a billionaire when he started his business.
    No, not based on the reasons he gave in the video.
    His reason is about divisiveness and rhetoric against wealthy people.

    He might have got help from a small business advisor network to set up his business if this Labour lot had been in power. Worst case, he might now only have £800m instead of £1.6bn, but it would probably still have been worth doing.
    and then the next thing you know
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,571
    edited December 2019
    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Interesting video of a meeting between John McDonnell and John Caudwell (bilionaire founder of Phones 4U).
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-50691677/billionaire-john-caudwell-goes-head-to-head-with-labour-s-john-mcdonnell

    Very amusing watching McDonnell in total denial when Caudwell told him straight that:
    a. If Labour had been in power when Caudwell was starting up he wouldn't have started his business in the first place
    b. If Labour do get in, then he and many other wealthy entrepreneurs like him are thinking of leaving the country.

    Take that, leftie boy :)

    I think he's forgotten that he wasn't a billionaire when he started his business.
    No, not based on the reasons he gave in the video.
    Listened to it on the radio this morning. As KG points out his main offence was not so much the policies (which he didn't seem too bothered about), but the rhetoric of demonising wealth - "there shouldn't be billionaires", etc. Every bit as disgusting as some of the stuff coming out of Johnson, Patel and Raab's mouths.
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  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 44,147 Lives Here
    Corbyn is no different to Farage or whole swathes is the Tory party in that he believes minorities are nefariously exploiting the system for their own end at the expense of everyone else.

    The variation is just on who the minority is.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Interesting video of a meeting between John McDonnell and John Caudwell (bilionaire founder of Phones 4U).
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-50691677/billionaire-john-caudwell-goes-head-to-head-with-labour-s-john-mcdonnell

    Very amusing watching McDonnell in total denial when Caudwell told him straight that:
    a. If Labour had been in power when Caudwell was starting up he wouldn't have started his business in the first place
    b. If Labour do get in, then he and many other wealthy entrepreneurs like him are thinking of leaving the country.

    Take that, leftie boy :)

    I think he's forgotten that he wasn't a billionaire when he started his business.
    No, not based on the reasons he gave in the video.
    His reason is about divisiveness and rhetoric against wealthy people.

    He might have got help from a small business advisor network to set up his business if this Labour lot had been in power. Worst case, he might now only have £800m instead of £1.6bn, but it would probably still have been worth doing.
    But as he said, he would not have done it.

    The point here is what does this say about Labours policies in relation to business and tax. What do you think?
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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Interesting video of a meeting between John McDonnell and John Caudwell (bilionaire founder of Phones 4U).
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-50691677/billionaire-john-caudwell-goes-head-to-head-with-labour-s-john-mcdonnell

    Very amusing watching McDonnell in total denial when Caudwell told him straight that:
    a. If Labour had been in power when Caudwell was starting up he wouldn't have started his business in the first place
    b. If Labour do get in, then he and many other wealthy entrepreneurs like him are thinking of leaving the country.

    Take that, leftie boy :)

    I think he's forgotten that he wasn't a billionaire when he started his business.
    No, not based on the reasons he gave in the video.
    His reason is about divisiveness and rhetoric against wealthy people.

    He might have got help from a small business advisor network to set up his business if this Labour lot had been in power. Worst case, he might now only have £800m instead of £1.6bn, but it would probably still have been worth doing.
    But as he said, he would not have done it.

    The point here is what does this say about Labours policies in relation to business and tax. What do you think?
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  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 15,571
    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Interesting video of a meeting between John McDonnell and John Caudwell (bilionaire founder of Phones 4U).
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-50691677/billionaire-john-caudwell-goes-head-to-head-with-labour-s-john-mcdonnell

    Very amusing watching McDonnell in total denial when Caudwell told him straight that:
    a. If Labour had been in power when Caudwell was starting up he wouldn't have started his business in the first place
    b. If Labour do get in, then he and many other wealthy entrepreneurs like him are thinking of leaving the country.

    Take that, leftie boy :)

    I think he's forgotten that he wasn't a billionaire when he started his business.
    No, not based on the reasons he gave in the video.
    His reason is about divisiveness and rhetoric against wealthy people.

    He might have got help from a small business advisor network to set up his business if this Labour lot had been in power. Worst case, he might now only have £800m instead of £1.6bn, but it would probably still have been worth doing.
    But as he said, he would not have done it.

    The point here is what does this say about Labours policies in relation to business and tax. What do you think?
    No. The point made in the interview was about the "evil rich" rhetoric. He was quite specific in saying he had no major issue with paying a bit more tax.
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  • Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Interesting video of a meeting between John McDonnell and John Caudwell (bilionaire founder of Phones 4U).
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-50691677/billionaire-john-caudwell-goes-head-to-head-with-labour-s-john-mcdonnell

    Very amusing watching McDonnell in total denial when Caudwell told him straight that:
    a. If Labour had been in power when Caudwell was starting up he wouldn't have started his business in the first place
    b. If Labour do get in, then he and many other wealthy entrepreneurs like him are thinking of leaving the country.

    Take that, leftie boy :)

    I think he's forgotten that he wasn't a billionaire when he started his business.
    No, not based on the reasons he gave in the video.
    His reason is about divisiveness and rhetoric against wealthy people.

    He might have got help from a small business advisor network to set up his business if this Labour lot had been in power. Worst case, he might now only have £800m instead of £1.6bn, but it would probably still have been worth doing.
    But as he said, he would not have done it.

    The point here is what does this say about Labours policies in relation to business and tax. What do you think?
    Shows he claims to be a delicate flower who'd rather not set up a business when he wasn't rich, I guess in case he gets rich and they are nasty about him?

    I just don't believe that if he had seen the same opportunity to buy mobiles cheap and sell them for more under a labour government, he'd have thought "no, that's too risky, it might make me rich."
    and then the next thing you know
  • I don't believe he's that daft, even if he claims he is.
    and then the next thing you know
  • I don't understand his idea of not starting a profitable business because of the party in power. Would labour policies make buying and selling phones unprofitable? What is the reason for that then? What policies would have made that startup business not worth doing?

    Also, assuming he's right then what would he have done instead? I'm just curious about that grandstanding statement. He's a talented and it seems to me to be a ruthless businessman. I bet he could make a good business idea work in any political climate.

    As much as I don't think Corbyn is a good prospect for prime minister, I don't believe it when a business leader like Caudwell makes a statement like that. It seems more about his politics than business to me.
  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Interesting video of a meeting between John McDonnell and John Caudwell (bilionaire founder of Phones 4U).
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-50691677/billionaire-john-caudwell-goes-head-to-head-with-labour-s-john-mcdonnell

    Very amusing watching McDonnell in total denial when Caudwell told him straight that:
    a. If Labour had been in power when Caudwell was starting up he wouldn't have started his business in the first place
    b. If Labour do get in, then he and many other wealthy entrepreneurs like him are thinking of leaving the country.

    Take that, leftie boy :)

    I think he's forgotten that he wasn't a billionaire when he started his business.
    No, not based on the reasons he gave in the video.
    His reason is about divisiveness and rhetoric against wealthy people.

    He might have got help from a small business advisor network to set up his business if this Labour lot had been in power. Worst case, he might now only have £800m instead of £1.6bn, but it would probably still have been worth doing.
    But as he said, he would not have done it.

    The point here is what does this say about Labours policies in relation to business and tax. What do you think?
    Shows he claims to be a delicate flower who'd rather not set up a business when he wasn't rich, I guess in case he gets rich and they are nasty about him?

    I just don't believe that if he had seen the same opportunity to buy mobiles cheap and sell them for more under a labour government, he'd have thought "no, that's too risky, it might make me rich."
    So you think he is lying? Any evidence for that? The more likely explanation is you are assumimg he is because it doesn't fit in with your view on this. A bit like John McDonnell in the video.

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  • Stevo_666Stevo_666 Posts: 37,110
    rjsterry said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    Interesting video of a meeting between John McDonnell and John Caudwell (bilionaire founder of Phones 4U).
    https://bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-50691677/billionaire-john-caudwell-goes-head-to-head-with-labour-s-john-mcdonnell

    Very amusing watching McDonnell in total denial when Caudwell told him straight that:
    a. If Labour had been in power when Caudwell was starting up he wouldn't have started his business in the first place
    b. If Labour do get in, then he and many other wealthy entrepreneurs like him are thinking of leaving the country.

    Take that, leftie boy :)

    I think he's forgotten that he wasn't a billionaire when he started his business.
    No, not based on the reasons he gave in the video.
    His reason is about divisiveness and rhetoric against wealthy people.

    He might have got help from a small business advisor network to set up his business if this Labour lot had been in power. Worst case, he might now only have £800m instead of £1.6bn, but it would probably still have been worth doing.
    But as he said, he would not have done it.

    The point here is what does this say about Labours policies in relation to business and tax. What do you think?
    No. The point made in the interview was about the "evil rich" rhetoric. He was quite specific in saying he had no major issue with paying a bit more tax.
    No, its my point. So what do you think?
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