Today's discussion about the news

rjsterry

I'm not sure why every criticism of pretty serious problems in the US is brushed away as snobbery.

For all the 'magic' of the US economy plenty of people think it's not been magic for them and believe the same simplistic Trumpian bollox that Wilders et al sell.

rick_chasey

rjsterry said:

I'm not sure why every criticism of pretty serious problems in the US is brushed away as snobbery.

It’s largely irrelevant to the economy.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

rjsterry said:

I'm not sure why every criticism of pretty serious problems in the US is brushed away as snobbery.

It’s largely irrelevant to the economy.

See edited post above. I don't think it is.

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

Look if things carry on there will be a three tiered “rich” world with the US streaking ahead, Europe Japan and Korea stagnating and China stagnating behind.

Europeans would do well to be humble about their own decade of poor economic performance and address it.

This sort of snobbery about the US is fine but most of the criticisms are not to do with the economy.

Americans not having much holiday or shooting each other is not the reason their economy is doing so well.

There are lessons to be learned.

I'm not sure you quite comprehend what this 'snobbery' is about. Sure, overall the economy seems to be doing well, but if that's at the expense of the poor, access to healthcare, and gets hijacked by the evangelical far-right, what's the point of all that money? If the US crashes and burns under another Trump, that would be the result of the inequalities that seem to drive the US economy, as well as a collective madness (if they aren't the same thing).

rick_chasey

UK has a higher proportion of people in poverty fwiw…

It’s just the well off are *much* more well off in the US.

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

UK has a higher proportion of people in poverty fwiw…

It’s just the well off are *much* more well off in the US.

And you don't think that (increasing) degree of inequality is a problem?

rick_chasey

briantrumpet said:

rick_chasey said:

UK has a higher proportion of people in poverty fwiw…

It’s just the well off are *much* more well off in the US.

And you don't think that (increasing) degree of inequality is a problem?

No. Poverty is a problem. Lots of people getting rich isn’t.

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

briantrumpet said:

rick_chasey said:

UK has a higher proportion of people in poverty fwiw…

It’s just the well off are *much* more well off in the US.

And you don't think that (increasing) degree of inequality is a problem?

No. Poverty is a problem. Lots of people getting rich isn’t.

Lots of people getting very rich at the expense of the poor is.

To give Biden his due, at least he's chipping away at the edges, but the massive inequalities built into the US model aren't symptoms of a sustainably healthy society. And all of Biden's achievements will turn to dust if those wanting to preserve those inequalities get back into power with Trump as the figurehead.

TheBigBean

Doesn't it make sense to compare quality of life? The point of a strong economy is to improve the quality of life.

Neither the US or UK do particularly well on the development index.

pblakeney

I’d argue that the lack of holidays contributes to efficiency and the economy.
Then you need to have a high top end salary to afford healthcare (or the kind of job that provides it).
What I am saying is that you won’t get all the good bits of a US economy without the bad.
Also, there is a huge divide in wealth over there too.

rick_chasey

pblakeney said:

I’d argue that the lack of holidays contributes to efficiency and the economy.
Then you need to have a high top end salary to afford healthcare (or the kind of job that provides it).
What I am saying is that you won’t get all the good bits of a US economy without the bad.
Also, there is a huge divide in wealth over there too.

I’m not convinced having fewer holidays has a positive impact on your productivity per hour. All the evidence is to the contrary.

You can surely imagine there are things European countries can learn?


Americans pay a lot for healthcare but again, what does that have to do with their productivity?

TheBigBean

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

I’d argue that the lack of holidays contributes to efficiency and the economy.
Then you need to have a high top end salary to afford healthcare (or the kind of job that provides it).
What I am saying is that you won’t get all the good bits of a US economy without the bad.
Also, there is a huge divide in wealth over there too.

I’m not convinced having fewer holidays has a positive impact on your productivity per hour. All the evidence is to the contrary.

You can surely imagine there are things European countries can learn?


Americans pay a lot for healthcare but again, what does that have to do with their productivity?

Which lifestyle metric are you looking to improve?

pblakeney

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

I’d argue that the lack of holidays contributes to efficiency and the economy.
Then you need to have a high top end salary to afford healthcare (or the kind of job that provides it).
What I am saying is that you won’t get all the good bits of a US economy without the bad.
Also, there is a huge divide in wealth over there too.

I’m not convinced having fewer holidays has a positive impact on your productivity per hour. All the evidence is to the contrary.

You can surely imagine there are things European countries can learn?


Americans pay a lot for healthcare but again, what does that have to do with their productivity?

1. Adds additional hours.
2. Such as?
3. Productivity is not the be all and end all of life.

pangolin

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

I’d argue that the lack of holidays contributes to efficiency and the economy.
Then you need to have a high top end salary to afford healthcare (or the kind of job that provides it).
What I am saying is that you won’t get all the good bits of a US economy without the bad.
Also, there is a huge divide in wealth over there too.

I’m not convinced having fewer holidays has a positive impact on your productivity per hour. All the evidence is to the contrary.

You can surely imagine there are things European countries can learn?


Americans pay a lot for healthcare but again, what does that have to do with their productivity?

1. Adds additional hours.
2. Such as?
3. Productivity is not the be all and end all of life.

More hours doesn't mean more work though. Time in any UK office will tell you that.

TheBigBean

pangolin said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

I’d argue that the lack of holidays contributes to efficiency and the economy.
Then you need to have a high top end salary to afford healthcare (or the kind of job that provides it).
What I am saying is that you won’t get all the good bits of a US economy without the bad.
Also, there is a huge divide in wealth over there too.

I’m not convinced having fewer holidays has a positive impact on your productivity per hour. All the evidence is to the contrary.

You can surely imagine there are things European countries can learn?


Americans pay a lot for healthcare but again, what does that have to do with their productivity?

1. Adds additional hours.
2. Such as?
3. Productivity is not the be all and end all of life.

More hours doesn't mean more work though. Time in any UK office will tell you that.

Bank holidays affect GDP, so it is reasonable to think that reducing holidays would do as well.

Koreans get 5 days a year.

rjsterry

TheBigBean said:

pangolin said:

pblakeney said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

I’d argue that the lack of holidays contributes to efficiency and the economy.
Then you need to have a high top end salary to afford healthcare (or the kind of job that provides it).
What I am saying is that you won’t get all the good bits of a US economy without the bad.
Also, there is a huge divide in wealth over there too.

I’m not convinced having fewer holidays has a positive impact on your productivity per hour. All the evidence is to the contrary.

You can surely imagine there are things European countries can learn?


Americans pay a lot for healthcare but again, what does that have to do with their productivity?

1. Adds additional hours.
2. Such as?
3. Productivity is not the be all and end all of life.

More hours doesn't mean more work though. Time in any UK office will tell you that.

Bank holidays affect GDP, so it is reasonable to think that reducing holidays would do as well.

Koreans get 5 days a yeae.

Also, not paying people to be off sick/start a family.

Jezyboy

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

I’d argue that the lack of holidays contributes to efficiency and the economy.
Then you need to have a high top end salary to afford healthcare (or the kind of job that provides it).
What I am saying is that you won’t get all the good bits of a US economy without the bad.
Also, there is a huge divide in wealth over there too.

I’m not convinced having fewer holidays has a positive impact on your productivity per hour. All the evidence is to the contrary.

You can surely imagine there are things European countries can learn?


Americans pay a lot for healthcare but again, what does that have to do with their productivity?

Given the range of political philosophies across the different states I reckon you could almost learn whatever lesson you wanted.

Pross

I find Rick’s apparent idolisation of the US slightly odd as they appear to be even worse than the UK when it comes to all the ‘bad stuff’ he moans about in the UK other than possibly the economy. What’s the point in a strong economy if it isn’t to the benefit of the whole population?

After a few days in Norway and seeing how they made use of the unexpected financial windfall to improve the country for future generations as well as the current I know where I’d rather be.

rick_chasey

The whole tonnes of poor people in the US view is a little outdated.

Like I said they have a lower proportion of people in poverty, and every strata (uk definition), working class, middle class, and rich all out earn the Uk bar small pockets of London.

I have a lot of interactions with the US and people who live there and the comparisons come up.

It’s hard to exaggerate how well the US economy has done compared to Europe - across all levels, in the last 15 years.

The stagnation we take for granted is really stark when you see the growth the Americans take for granted.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

The whole tonnes of poor people in the US view is a little outdated.

Like I said they have a lower proportion of people in poverty, and every strata (uk definition), working class, middle class, and rich all out earn the Uk bar small pockets of London.

I have a lot of interactions with the US and people who live there and the comparisons come up.

It’s hard to exaggerate how well the US economy has done compared to Europe - across all levels, in the last 15 years.

The stagnation we take for granted is really stark when you see the growth the Americans take for granted.

I can think of a few reasons: lower tax burden (you knew I'd say that); more labour market flexibility and the general attitude that its OK for people to make money rather than resenting those who do.

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

The whole tonnes of poor people in the US view is a little outdated.

Like I said they have a lower proportion of people in poverty, and every strata (uk definition), working class, middle class, and rich all out earn the Uk bar small pockets of London.

I have a lot of interactions with the US and people who live there and the comparisons come up.

It’s hard to exaggerate how well the US economy has done compared to Europe - across all levels, in the last 15 years.

The stagnation we take for granted is really stark when you see the growth the Americans take for granted.

🤔

https://confrontingpoverty.org/poverty-facts-and-myths/americas-poor-are-worse-off-than-elsewhere/

https://www.ft.com/content/ef265420-45e8-497b-b308-c951baa68945

The rich in the US are exceptionally rich — the top 10 per cent have the highest top-decile disposable incomes in the world, 50 per cent above their British counterparts. But the bottom decile struggle by with a standard of living that is worse than the poorest in 14 European countries including Slovenia.

To be clear, the US data show that both broad-based growth and the equal distribution of its proceeds matter for wellbeing. Five years of healthy pre-pandemic growth in US living standards across the distribution lifted all boats, a trend that was conspicuously absent in the UK.

But redistributing the gains more evenly would have a far more transformative impact on quality of life for millions. The growth spurt boosted incomes of the bottom decile of US households by roughly an extra 10 per cent. But transpose Norway’s inequality gradient on to the US, and the poorest decile of Americans would be a further 40 per cent better off while the top decile would remain richer than the top of almost every other country on the planet.

Our leaders are of course right to target economic growth, but to wave away concerns about the distribution of a decent standard of living — which is what income inequality essentially measures — is to be uninterested in the lives of millions. Until those gradients are made less steep, the UK and US will remain poor societies with pockets of rich people.

rick_chasey

Yeah that’s 4 years ago. US has motored since and the UK has got worse.

Obviously no social security will mean you get more extremes in the US as there is no floor, but again, I don’t think that is the differentiator regarding performance.

Do you not think there is a balance to be found regarding US economic performance and some basic social security? It’s not either or.

briantrumpet

rick_chasey said:

Yeah that’s 4 years ago. US has motored since and the UK has got worse.

Apologies, edited as you were replying, adding in recent FT article.

briantrumpet

Maybe the UK wouldn't have been as stagnant had it not been for a fixated and incompetent government.

veronese68

Our MD is American, this is his second stint over here. He said he doesn't think he could ever live there again, one of the main reasons cited is that people are obsessed with money. If you meet someone new the conversation always moves on to what you do, how big your house is what car you drive. No wonder Rick thinks it's great.

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

pblakeney said:

I’d argue that the lack of holidays contributes to efficiency and the economy.
Then you need to have a high top end salary to afford healthcare (or the kind of job that provides it).
What I am saying is that you won’t get all the good bits of a US economy without the bad.
Also, there is a huge divide in wealth over there too.

I’m not convinced having fewer holidays has a positive impact on your productivity per hour. All the evidence is to the contrary.

You can surely imagine there are things European countries can learn?


Americans pay a lot for healthcare but again, what does that have to do with their productivity?

Which lifestyle metric are you looking to improve?

There's only one important one, admittedly you need to earn enough to make it work. I quit my job and went back to a company I used to work for and took a pay cut to do so. It meant I could see my kids every morning and evening, less stress and a happier work environment. Admittedly it took a bout of cancer to make me realise the obvious.

sungod

rick_chasey said:

The whole tonnes of poor people in the US view is a little outdated.

Like I said they have a lower proportion of people in poverty, and every strata (uk definition), working class, middle class, and rich all out earn the Uk bar small pockets of London.

I have a lot of interactions with the US and people who live there and the comparisons come up.

It’s hard to exaggerate how well the US economy has done compared to Europe - across all levels, in the last 15 years.

The stagnation we take for granted is really stark when you see the growth the Americans take for granted.

up to 2020 data ( https://devinit.org/documents/1291/Economic_poverty_trends_dataset.xlsx ) show...

usa poverty rate is around 1% vs. 0.3% for uk, forecast 2020 onwards stays that way

that's c. three times worse than the uk

the general standard of living is higher, but the usa lacks anything close to the uk 'safety net', with worsening addiction, crime, mental health

i've spent a fair amount of time in phoenix over the years, the contrast between scottsdale and the downtown 'zone' is stark, the clear out moves the people but is unlikely to fix the underlying problem
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/11/04/us/phoenix-tent-camp-homelessness.html?unlocked_article_code=1.BU0.N6VU.xUiej1rKxUL4&smid=url-share


as in many countries, growth typically results in unequal wealth distribution, with the wealthiest tending to benefit disproportionately - off-shoring, automation, and availability of cheap labour (poor people, migrants etc.) with little/no bargaining power

aside from cultural differences - imho willingness both to take risk and to try again after failure - the usa benefits from less regulation, local governments generally wanting to attract development rather than block it

lower cost of stuff/services, easier/cheaper to start up and operate, weaker employment rights make it easier to cut cost if needed, it's also a huge single market with plenty of options for supporting services

rick_chasey

Sure I agree the US is missing a social security system but again, where’s the evidence that that is why their economy outperforms?

sungod

rick_chasey said:

Sure I agree the US is missing a social security system but again, where’s the evidence that that is why their economy outperforms?

who claimed it was the reason for economic performance?

rick_chasey

sungod said:

rick_chasey said:

Sure I agree the US is missing a social security system but again, where’s the evidence that that is why their economy outperforms?

who claimed it was the reason for economic performance?

That’s all I’m arguing for.

You couldn’t pay me enough to live in America (literally, and I have been offered) and I’m not saying it’s a wonderful place, but their economic performance is and I think Europe could learn something from it.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

The whole tonnes of poor people in the US view is a little outdated.

Like I said they have a lower proportion of people in poverty, and every strata (uk definition), working class, middle class, and rich all out earn the Uk bar small pockets of London.

I have a lot of interactions with the US and people who live there and the comparisons come up.

It’s hard to exaggerate how well the US economy has done compared to Europe - across all levels, in the last 15 years.

The stagnation we take for granted is really stark when you see the growth the Americans take for granted.

If your thesis that the European (including UK) stagnation is what has driven younger generations to vote for people like Wilders, AfD, Le Pen, et al, why are younger generations still supporting the American equivalent despite the success of the US economy?