Today's discussion about the news
Comments
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Honestly, I don’t follow the US political stuff beyond the polls and geopolitically.
They have an absolute shittonne of batshit crazy people who are soo out there I have a hard time to comprehend where they’re coming from so I just don’t bother.
I have no idea.0 -
https://www.economist.com/1843/2023/11/23/the-man-who-escaped-genocide-twice
The man who escaped genocide, twice
Refugees from Sudan are furious with the world for ignoring their plight
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It would be good if the ICC did manage to prosecute some people, but what else can the rest of the world do? It's a civil war with no good guys to arm, so the only option would be to invade and occupy which is unlikely to be appealing to anyone.rick_chasey said:https://www.economist.com/1843/2023/11/23/the-man-who-escaped-genocide-twice
The man who escaped genocide, twice
Refugees from Sudan are furious with the world for ignoring their plight
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I'm fairly clueless but a NATO jobbie like in the Balkans? Ideally with better execution I mean, it's genocide. Surely the West can protect the refugees, and let the rest slog it out?0
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Surely, given how often the assumption is made that growth would have prevented brexit (etc) it's worth understanding why a country with such great growth is such an apparent political basket case.rick_chasey said:Honestly, I don’t follow the US political stuff beyond the polls and geopolitically.
They have an absolute shittonne of batshit crazy people who are soo out there I have a hard time to comprehend where they’re coming from so I just don’t bother.
I have no idea.
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Probably.
The is that research that said the likelihood of someone voting Brexit was almost directly proportional to their exposure to austerity. Lord knows a tonne of US places see the equivalent.0 -
How would austerity affect the well-off pensioners in the "shires" that voted for Brexit in non-trivial numbers?rick_chasey said:Probably.
The is that research that said the likelihood of someone voting Brexit was almost directly proportional to their exposure to austerity. Lord knows a tonne of US places see the equivalent.0 -
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Sorry. Just to be clear, I don't think your claim is correct taken on face value. If you want to explain how Brexit voting well-off pensioners were affected by exposure to austerity then pls feel free to elaborate.rick_chasey said:You can look up the research yourself.
Funnily enough 52% of voters will cover a lot of groups.0 -
My own theory is that people dependent upon the State voted for Brexit a subset of whom were adverseley impacted byausterity but also includes pensioners, farmers and regions getting big bungs.wallace_and_gromit said:
Sorry. Just to be clear, I don't think your claim is correct taken on face value. If you want to explain how Brexit voting well-off pensioners were affected by exposure to austerity then pls feel free to elaborate.rick_chasey said:You can look up the research yourself.
Funnily enough 52% of voters will cover a lot of groups.
If your lifestyle is dpendent upon the State you would be more swayed by arguments about how the State will have more flexibility to improve your way of life post-Brexit.0 -
Not least as the elderly are always spending more time in hospitals and at doctors etc, so they are more exposed that way.surrey_commuter said:
My own theory is that people dependent upon the State voted for Brexit a subset of whom were adverseley impacted byausterity but also includes pensioners, farmers and regions getting big bungs.wallace_and_gromit said:
Sorry. Just to be clear, I don't think your claim is correct taken on face value. If you want to explain how Brexit voting well-off pensioners were affected by exposure to austerity then pls feel free to elaborate.rick_chasey said:You can look up the research yourself.
Funnily enough 52% of voters will cover a lot of groups.
If your lifestyle is dpendent upon the State you would be more swayed by arguments about how the State will have more flexibility to improve your way of life post-Brexit.0 -
Tbf even the well off pensioners I know use the NHS, and whilst the NHS budget may have escaped the worst of austerity, the social care budget has not, which has meant NHS services being spread more thinly.wallace_and_gromit said:
Sorry. Just to be clear, I don't think your claim is correct taken on face value. If you want to explain how Brexit voting well-off pensioners were affected by exposure to austerity then pls feel free to elaborate.rick_chasey said:You can look up the research yourself.
Funnily enough 52% of voters will cover a lot of groups.
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Doesn't seem to match this.surrey_commuter said:
My own theory is that people dependent upon the State voted for Brexit a subset of whom were adverseley impacted byausterity but also includes pensioners, farmers and regions getting big bungs.wallace_and_gromit said:
Sorry. Just to be clear, I don't think your claim is correct taken on face value. If you want to explain how Brexit voting well-off pensioners were affected by exposure to austerity then pls feel free to elaborate.rick_chasey said:You can look up the research yourself.
Funnily enough 52% of voters will cover a lot of groups.
If your lifestyle is dpendent upon the State you would be more swayed by arguments about how the State will have more flexibility to improve your way of life post-Brexit.
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41293-022-00216-9#:~:text=Well over a half of,group of workers were graduates.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
No argument here. I just don't think that covers the non-trivial number of well-off pensioners (i.e. those with good private pensions and lots of housing equity) who voted to leave. My parents voted to leave because my Mum has always been anti-integration on the European front, despite being unaffected by austerity, and quite comfortably off. (Both parents are on inflation linked public sector pensions for example.) Ironically, since the Covid era, she's not enjoyed great health and is very frustrated at the failings of the GP service, which may or may not be due to sub-optimal levels of health spending...surrey_commuter said:
My own theory is that people dependent upon the State voted for Brexit a subset of whom were adverseley impacted byausterity but also includes pensioners, farmers and regions getting big bungs.wallace_and_gromit said:
Sorry. Just to be clear, I don't think your claim is correct taken on face value. If you want to explain how Brexit voting well-off pensioners were affected by exposure to austerity then pls feel free to elaborate.rick_chasey said:You can look up the research yourself.
Funnily enough 52% of voters will cover a lot of groups.
If your lifestyle is dpendent upon the State you would be more swayed by arguments about how the State will have more flexibility to improve your way of life post-Brexit.
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The NHS wasn't in a particular bad state in the run-up to the EU ref. It's only really got bad post-Covid, even though the issues have been building up for years.rick_chasey said:
Not least as the elderly are always spending more time in hospitals and at doctors etc, so they are more exposed that way.surrey_commuter said:
My own theory is that people dependent upon the State voted for Brexit a subset of whom were adverseley impacted byausterity but also includes pensioners, farmers and regions getting big bungs.wallace_and_gromit said:
Sorry. Just to be clear, I don't think your claim is correct taken on face value. If you want to explain how Brexit voting well-off pensioners were affected by exposure to austerity then pls feel free to elaborate.rick_chasey said:You can look up the research yourself.
Funnily enough 52% of voters will cover a lot of groups.
If your lifestyle is dpendent upon the State you would be more swayed by arguments about how the State will have more flexibility to improve your way of life post-Brexit.0 -
Sovereignty and taking control of borders?wallace_and_gromit said:
No argument here. I just don't think that covers the non-trivial number of well-off pensioners (i.e. those with good private pensions and lots of housing equity) who voted to leave. My parents voted to leave because my Mum has always been anti-integration on the European front, despite being unaffected by austerity, and quite comfortably off. (Both parents are on inflation linked public sector pensions for example.) Ironically, since the Covid era, she's not enjoyed great health and is very frustrated at the failings of the GP service, which may or may not be due to sub-optimal levels of health spending...surrey_commuter said:
My own theory is that people dependent upon the State voted for Brexit a subset of whom were adverseley impacted byausterity but also includes pensioners, farmers and regions getting big bungs.wallace_and_gromit said:
Sorry. Just to be clear, I don't think your claim is correct taken on face value. If you want to explain how Brexit voting well-off pensioners were affected by exposure to austerity then pls feel free to elaborate.rick_chasey said:You can look up the research yourself.
Funnily enough 52% of voters will cover a lot of groups.
If your lifestyle is dpendent upon the State you would be more swayed by arguments about how the State will have more flexibility to improve your way of life post-Brexit.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
pblakeney said:
Sovereignty and taking control of borders?wallace_and_gromit said:
No argument here. I just don't think that covers the non-trivial number of well-off pensioners (i.e. those with good private pensions and lots of housing equity) who voted to leave. My parents voted to leave because my Mum has always been anti-integration on the European front, despite being unaffected by austerity, and quite comfortably off. (Both parents are on inflation linked public sector pensions for example.) Ironically, since the Covid era, she's not enjoyed great health and is very frustrated at the failings of the GP service, which may or may not be due to sub-optimal levels of health spending...surrey_commuter said:
My own theory is that people dependent upon the State voted for Brexit a subset of whom were adverseley impacted byausterity but also includes pensioners, farmers and regions getting big bungs.wallace_and_gromit said:
Sorry. Just to be clear, I don't think your claim is correct taken on face value. If you want to explain how Brexit voting well-off pensioners were affected by exposure to austerity then pls feel free to elaborate.rick_chasey said:You can look up the research yourself.
Funnily enough 52% of voters will cover a lot of groups.
If your lifestyle is dpendent upon the State you would be more swayed by arguments about how the State will have more flexibility to improve your way of life post-Brexit.
Leave picked issues they knew that were both meaningless in practical terms but wound up old(er) people. It didn't need any logical underpinning.2 -
I take your point but the fact that their entire income is from the Govt would support my point that they are dependent upon the Statewallace_and_gromit said:
No argument here. I just don't think that covers the non-trivial number of well-off pensioners (i.e. those with good private pensions and lots of housing equity) who voted to leave. My parents voted to leave because my Mum has always been anti-integration on the European front, despite being unaffected by austerity, and quite comfortably off. (Both parents are on inflation linked public sector pensions for example.) Ironically, since the Covid era, she's not enjoyed great health and is very frustrated at the failings of the GP service, which may or may not be due to sub-optimal levels of health spending...surrey_commuter said:
My own theory is that people dependent upon the State voted for Brexit a subset of whom were adverseley impacted byausterity but also includes pensioners, farmers and regions getting big bungs.wallace_and_gromit said:
Sorry. Just to be clear, I don't think your claim is correct taken on face value. If you want to explain how Brexit voting well-off pensioners were affected by exposure to austerity then pls feel free to elaborate.rick_chasey said:You can look up the research yourself.
Funnily enough 52% of voters will cover a lot of groups.
If your lifestyle is dpendent upon the State you would be more swayed by arguments about how the State will have more flexibility to improve your way of life post-Brexit.0 -
N/AThe above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I'm curious as to what grounds the Palestinians bring released from Israeli prisons in response to Hamas releasing hostages were being detained.0
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I am sure Hamas aren't swapping hostages for stone throwersbriantrumpet said:I'm curious as to what grounds the Palestinians bring released from Israeli prisons in response to Hamas releasing hostages were being detained.
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They're mostly detained for things like stone throwing, but the problem is that they don't have access to the legal system and many do not face trial, so their detention is questionable. One of the women released the other day was detained because her car caught on fire - damning evidence that she was intent on terrorism.briantrumpet said:I'm curious as to what grounds the Palestinians bring released from Israeli prisons in response to Hamas releasing hostages were being detained.
Israel would say that it is impossible to conduct a proper trial as no Palestinians will be witnesses. That, of course, is the problem of occupying a country.
In other news, there are mixed reports of how the hostages were treated. One Israeli TV channel was reporting that it wasn't too bad given the difficulties and that this was consistent with what the previously released hostage said - something she was strongly criticised for. There are various reports of worse treatment though.
Also worth noting that Palestinians detained by Israel frequently report beatings and poor conditions.
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I don't know if it is a new tactic but as I was travelling up to London this Saturday and there was a warning about industrial action I looked in more detail and noticed that drivers with different companies are striking on different days. I assume this is intended to cause maximum disruption without the drivers having to lose too many days' pay.rick_chasey said:Oh look, more train strikes next week.
It's been over a year now.0 -
Presumably. Gives them a week of headlines.
It boggles the mind this can't be solved by now. It seems both side would rather just carry on with strikes every other month.0 -
The people making the decisions don't regularly use trains.rick_chasey said:Presumably. Gives them a week of headlines.
It boggles the mind this can't be solved by now. It seems both side would rather just carry on with strikes every other month.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
This has always been a bugbear of mine about strikes, and protests in general.rjsterry said:
The people making the decisions don't regularly use trains.rick_chasey said:Presumably. Gives them a week of headlines.
It boggles the mind this can't be solved by now. It seems both side would rather just carry on with strikes every other month.
You have to impact the decision makers more than the general public.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
surrey_commuter said:
I take your point but the fact that their entire income is from the Govt would support my point that they are dependent upon the Statewallace_and_gromit said:
No argument here. I just don't think that covers the non-trivial number of well-off pensioners (i.e. those with good private pensions and lots of housing equity) who voted to leave. My parents voted to leave because my Mum has always been anti-integration on the European front, despite being unaffected by austerity, and quite comfortably off. (Both parents are on inflation linked public sector pensions for example.) Ironically, since the Covid era, she's not enjoyed great health and is very frustrated at the failings of the GP service, which may or may not be due to sub-optimal levels of health spending...surrey_commuter said:
My own theory is that people dependent upon the State voted for Brexit a subset of whom were adverseley impacted byausterity but also includes pensioners, farmers and regions getting big bungs.wallace_and_gromit said:
Sorry. Just to be clear, I don't think your claim is correct taken on face value. If you want to explain how Brexit voting well-off pensioners were affected by exposure to austerity then pls feel free to elaborate.rick_chasey said:You can look up the research yourself.
Funnily enough 52% of voters will cover a lot of groups.
If your lifestyle is dpendent upon the State you would be more swayed by arguments about how the State will have more flexibility to improve your way of life post-Brexit.
Well I guess so, but if the State is in no position to pay contractually guaranteed pensions then we're all ****ed. (And I suspect most people in my folks' position think their work-related pension is paid from a ring-fenced pot with their names on. It's only because I like boring them with details that my folks are in the know on this.)surrey_commuter said:
I take your point but the fact that their entire income is from the Govt would support my point that they are dependent upon the Statewallace_and_gromit said:
No argument here. I just don't think that covers the non-trivial number of well-off pensioners (i.e. those with good private pensions and lots of housing equity) who voted to leave. My parents voted to leave because my Mum has always been anti-integration on the European front, despite being unaffected by austerity, and quite comfortably off. (Both parents are on inflation linked public sector pensions for example.) Ironically, since the Covid era, she's not enjoyed great health and is very frustrated at the failings of the GP service, which may or may not be due to sub-optimal levels of health spending...surrey_commuter said:
My own theory is that people dependent upon the State voted for Brexit a subset of whom were adverseley impacted byausterity but also includes pensioners, farmers and regions getting big bungs.wallace_and_gromit said:
Sorry. Just to be clear, I don't think your claim is correct taken on face value. If you want to explain how Brexit voting well-off pensioners were affected by exposure to austerity then pls feel free to elaborate.rick_chasey said:You can look up the research yourself.
Funnily enough 52% of voters will cover a lot of groups.
If your lifestyle is dpendent upon the State you would be more swayed by arguments about how the State will have more flexibility to improve your way of life post-Brexit.
By "reliant on the State" I was meaning those reliant on payments from the State that are at the whim of whichever politician is in charge at the time.
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TheBigBean said:
They're mostly detained for things like stone throwing, but the problem is that they don't have access to the legal system and many do not face trial, so their detention is questionable. One of the women released the other day was detained because her car caught on fire - damning evidence that she was intent on terrorism.briantrumpet said:I'm curious as to what grounds the Palestinians bring released from Israeli prisons in response to Hamas releasing hostages were being detained.
Israel would say that it is impossible to conduct a proper trial as no Palestinians will be witnesses. That, of course, is the problem of occupying a country.
In other news, there are mixed reports of how the hostages were treated. One Israeli TV channel was reporting that it wasn't too bad given the difficulties and that this was consistent with what the previously released hostage said - something she was strongly criticised for. There are various reports of worse treatment though.
Also worth noting that Palestinians detained by Israel frequently report beatings and poor conditions.
I asked the question as on the surface it gives the impression of a hostage swap, but the reporting is the Israelis are hostages (no argument there) but the Palestinians are prisoners.0 -
Yes, it is a freedom fighter/ terrorist situation. Think some UK politicians would explode if the BBC started calling them all detainees. They could call the soliders POWs, but I guess it is not something anyone is fighting for.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
They're mostly detained for things like stone throwing, but the problem is that they don't have access to the legal system and many do not face trial, so their detention is questionable. One of the women released the other day was detained because her car caught on fire - damning evidence that she was intent on terrorism.briantrumpet said:I'm curious as to what grounds the Palestinians bring released from Israeli prisons in response to Hamas releasing hostages were being detained.
Israel would say that it is impossible to conduct a proper trial as no Palestinians will be witnesses. That, of course, is the problem of occupying a country.
In other news, there are mixed reports of how the hostages were treated. One Israeli TV channel was reporting that it wasn't too bad given the difficulties and that this was consistent with what the previously released hostage said - something she was strongly criticised for. There are various reports of worse treatment though.
Also worth noting that Palestinians detained by Israel frequently report beatings and poor conditions.
I asked the question as on the surface it gives the impression of a hostage swap, but the reporting is the Israelis are hostages (no argument there) but the Palestinians are prisoners.0
