Today's discussion about the news
Comments
-
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Glad we're arguing on the substance of what the Tories have achieved in 13 years.0
-
In fairness, you have just likened the Tories to the national front of the 70s, so I don't think you can take the moral high ground.briantrumpet said:Glad we're arguing on the substance of what the Tories have achieved in 13 years.
1 -
TheBigBean said:
In fairness, you have just likened the Tories to the national front of the 70s, so I don't think you can take the moral high ground.briantrumpet said:Glad we're arguing on the substance of what the Tories have achieved in 13 years.
Can you not see any parallels? Even the Tory party of 20 years ago (let alone Thatcher's) would not have been been chasing the xenophobic vote. Well, even T May seems like St Theresa in comparison with the send-furriners-to-Rwanda-with-a-one-way-ticket iteration of the party.
Perhaps you've not noticed how far to the right the Tories have lurched under Sunak, while spending gazillions which seem to end up in their mates' pockets.0 -
TheBigBean said:
In fairness, you have just likened the Tories to the national front of the 70s, so I don't think you can take the moral high ground.briantrumpet said:Glad we're arguing on the substance of what the Tories have achieved in 13 years.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Tbf, Brian is facing some stiff competition from Carol Vorderman to be crowned 'most anti-tory ex-tory supporter' on the planet, so he is trying pretty hard."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0
-
Stevo_666 said:
Tbf, Brian is facing some stiff competition from Carol Vorderman to be crowned 'most anti-tory ex-tory supporter' on the planet, so he is trying pretty hard.
Quite happy with that comparison 👍😃0 -
Do you think the Tory party has stopped all immigration? Are they planning to repatriate those that look a bit foreign? Have they cracked down on corruption? There has been talk of the commonwealth, but not the white commonwealth eg a trade deal with India has been actively persued.briantrumpet said:TheBigBean said:
In fairness, you have just likened the Tories to the national front of the 70s, so I don't think you can take the moral high ground.briantrumpet said:Glad we're arguing on the substance of what the Tories have achieved in 13 years.
Can you not see any parallels? Even the Tory party of 20 years ago (let alone Thatcher's) would not have been been chasing the xenophobic vote. Well, even T May seems like St Theresa in comparison with the send-furriners-to-Rwanda-with-a-one-way-ticket iteration of the party.
Perhaps you've not noticed how far to the right the Tories have lurched under Sunak, while spending gazillions which seem to end up in their mates' pockets.
You seem to become so blinded by issues that you lose sight of your own hyperbole.1 -
So, as ever, paging the #toryscum fanbois to itemise the good things for Jo and Joe Public achieved in the last 7, no make that 13 years.0
-
Back to Gaza - the US talking practicalities... though its reception depends on whether Netanyahu's goal includes the preservation of Gaza as a Palestinian area. I remain sceptical.
0 -
Twitter bloke - it’s not that extra ordinary.
Friends don’t let friends so stupid things.
It’s obvious to everyone there is no strategic victory with current tactic.0 -
rick_chasey said:
Twitter bloke - it’s not that extra ordinary.
Friends don’t let friends so stupid things.
It’s obvious to everyone there is no strategic victory with current tactic.
I get tired of all the hyperbolic "OMG's" on Twixxer... that said, it's somewhat unusual for the US to be publicly pushing back on Israel like this, especially given what Hamas did.0 -
briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
If it helps, it seems to include you now.briantrumpet said:I guess that 'centre leftie' now would be defined as anyone to the left of Truss or Braverman.
Happy to be left of Truss and Braverman. And not difficult either.
From the polls, it's about 75% of the electorate would be classed as that, given 'Tories' are stuck on 25%. I remain mystified what the Tories stand for now, as they appear to be the National Front of the 1970's, but without the low taxes bit or honest government and rooting out corruption.
Given the immigration figures they aren't really anything like the NF.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
DeVlaeminck said:briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
If it helps, it seems to include you now.briantrumpet said:I guess that 'centre leftie' now would be defined as anyone to the left of Truss or Braverman.
Happy to be left of Truss and Braverman. And not difficult either.
From the polls, it's about 75% of the electorate would be classed as that, given 'Tories' are stuck on 25%. I remain mystified what the Tories stand for now, as they appear to be the National Front of the 1970's, but without the low taxes bit or honest government and rooting out corruption.
Given the immigration figures they aren't really anything like the NF.
Only because they they are incapable of doing most things they want to, whether that's stopping boats, sending migrants to Rwanda, lowering taxes etc.
Though, to be fair, they have lined their mates' pockets and shafted the NHS, which were two aims, albeit ones that didn't make it onto their published manifesto.
0 -
Wanting to do something and being capable of it are 2 different things.DeVlaeminck said:briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
If it helps, it seems to include you now.briantrumpet said:I guess that 'centre leftie' now would be defined as anyone to the left of Truss or Braverman.
Happy to be left of Truss and Braverman. And not difficult either.
From the polls, it's about 75% of the electorate would be classed as that, given 'Tories' are stuck on 25%. I remain mystified what the Tories stand for now, as they appear to be the National Front of the 1970's, but without the low taxes bit or honest government and rooting out corruption.
Given the immigration figures they aren't really anything like the NF.
As I am fully aware! 🤣The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
briantrumpet said:DeVlaeminck said:briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
If it helps, it seems to include you now.briantrumpet said:I guess that 'centre leftie' now would be defined as anyone to the left of Truss or Braverman.
Happy to be left of Truss and Braverman. And not difficult either.
From the polls, it's about 75% of the electorate would be classed as that, given 'Tories' are stuck on 25%. I remain mystified what the Tories stand for now, as they appear to be the National Front of the 1970's, but without the low taxes bit or honest government and rooting out corruption.
Given the immigration figures they aren't really anything like the NF.
Only because they they are incapable of doing most things they want to, whether that's stopping boats, sending migrants to Rwanda, lowering taxes etc.
Though, to be fair, they have lined their mates' pockets and shafted the NHS, which were two aims, albeit ones that didn't make it onto their published manifesto.
You don't accidentally hand out hundreds of thousands of visas. 'Rwanda' is not a real policy.briantrumpet said:DeVlaeminck said:briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
If it helps, it seems to include you now.briantrumpet said:I guess that 'centre leftie' now would be defined as anyone to the left of Truss or Braverman.
Happy to be left of Truss and Braverman. And not difficult either.
From the polls, it's about 75% of the electorate would be classed as that, given 'Tories' are stuck on 25%. I remain mystified what the Tories stand for now, as they appear to be the National Front of the 1970's, but without the low taxes bit or honest government and rooting out corruption.
Given the immigration figures they aren't really anything like the NF.
Only because they they are incapable of doing most things they want to, whether that's stopping boats, sending migrants to Rwanda, lowering taxes etc.
Though, to be fair, they have lined their mates' pockets and shafted the NHS, which were two aims, albeit ones that didn't make it onto their published manifesto.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition1 -
It’s unusually poor strategically too. I guess the yanks want the world to know they’re not quite that stupid.briantrumpet said:rick_chasey said:Twitter bloke - it’s not that extra ordinary.
Friends don’t let friends so stupid things.
It’s obvious to everyone there is no strategic victory with current tactic.
I get tired of all the hyperbolic "OMG's" on Twixxer... that said, it's somewhat unusual for the US to be publicly pushing back on Israel like this, especially given what Hamas did.0 -
Was having this argument recently with pensioners and it really is amazing how successful the Rwandan policy is at hiding the fact you actually have a policy of record immigration.rjsterry said:briantrumpet said:DeVlaeminck said:briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
If it helps, it seems to include you now.briantrumpet said:I guess that 'centre leftie' now would be defined as anyone to the left of Truss or Braverman.
Happy to be left of Truss and Braverman. And not difficult either.
From the polls, it's about 75% of the electorate would be classed as that, given 'Tories' are stuck on 25%. I remain mystified what the Tories stand for now, as they appear to be the National Front of the 1970's, but without the low taxes bit or honest government and rooting out corruption.
Given the immigration figures they aren't really anything like the NF.
Only because they they are incapable of doing most things they want to, whether that's stopping boats, sending migrants to Rwanda, lowering taxes etc.
Though, to be fair, they have lined their mates' pockets and shafted the NHS, which were two aims, albeit ones that didn't make it onto their published manifesto.
You don't accidentally hand out hundreds of thousands of visas. 'Rwanda' is not a real policy.briantrumpet said:DeVlaeminck said:briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
If it helps, it seems to include you now.briantrumpet said:I guess that 'centre leftie' now would be defined as anyone to the left of Truss or Braverman.
Happy to be left of Truss and Braverman. And not difficult either.
From the polls, it's about 75% of the electorate would be classed as that, given 'Tories' are stuck on 25%. I remain mystified what the Tories stand for now, as they appear to be the National Front of the 1970's, but without the low taxes bit or honest government and rooting out corruption.
Given the immigration figures they aren't really anything like the NF.
Only because they they are incapable of doing most things they want to, whether that's stopping boats, sending migrants to Rwanda, lowering taxes etc.
Though, to be fair, they have lined their mates' pockets and shafted the NHS, which were two aims, albeit ones that didn't make it onto their published manifesto.0 -
I wish we could stop the lazy labelling by what party people support.
Most people on here are not dogmatic but would probably fall into the Blair/Clegg/Cameron broad church.
The current Tory Party’s is economic policies are closer to Ed Miliband.1 -
FT podcast on Ukraine war was fairly miserable.
Basically it's a war of attrition and if it stays the way it is Ukraine probably loses, unless the Western industrial effort moves to more of a war footing.
For context, at the beginning of the war, the UK's shell production capacity was equal to Ukraine's current daily use. It's improved a bit, but not much.
Apparently a lot of the western countries are asking private companies to produce a bit more with no guarantee of future demand, so the companies are reluctant to invest the necessary amounts to increase capacity.
Russia is on a full war footing and is putting everything into this war. Europe needs to follow if they want to avoid a Russian victory, or even what Russia did with Chechnya, which is have a failed invasion, call a truce, put the squeeze on them while they rebuild and then flatten the place to take it.0 -
In general I think European leaders are still too complacent about the prospect of a militaristic despot on their doorstep in charge of Russia and continuing to rely on the US which is getting increasingly stretched internationally, as they have as many, if not more, interests in Asia and the middle east.
Europe needs to get real about the prospect of the modern world and recognise that their obsession with austerity has impoverished us all but that's no excuse, and they will have to just feel the pain and pay for the rearmament, else it will be more costly in the long wrong.
Too much kicking stuff down the road hoping it will get better has not served Europe well since the 90s and will continue not to.
In the meantime they can bloody well pull off the shackles of parsimony and try to get both the economy and the military going again.0 -
Did they say what losing looks like?rick_chasey said:FT podcast on Ukraine war was fairly miserable.
Basically it's a war of attrition and if it stays the way it is Ukraine probably loses, unless the Western industrial effort moves to more of a war footing.
For context, at the beginning of the war, the UK's shell production capacity was equal to Ukraine's current daily use. It's improved a bit, but not much.
Apparently a lot of the western countries are asking private companies to produce a bit more with no guarantee of future demand, so the companies are reluctant to invest the necessary amounts to increase capacity.
Russia is on a full war footing and is putting everything into this war. Europe needs to follow if they want to avoid a Russian victory, or even what Russia did with Chechnya, which is have a failed invasion, call a truce, put the squeeze on them while they rebuild and then flatten the place to take it.0 -
Losing the war, Ukraine or at least Kiev being occupied by Russia.surrey_commuter said:
Did they say what losing looks like?rick_chasey said:FT podcast on Ukraine war was fairly miserable.
Basically it's a war of attrition and if it stays the way it is Ukraine probably loses, unless the Western industrial effort moves to more of a war footing.
For context, at the beginning of the war, the UK's shell production capacity was equal to Ukraine's current daily use. It's improved a bit, but not much.
Apparently a lot of the western countries are asking private companies to produce a bit more with no guarantee of future demand, so the companies are reluctant to invest the necessary amounts to increase capacity.
Russia is on a full war footing and is putting everything into this war. Europe needs to follow if they want to avoid a Russian victory, or even what Russia did with Chechnya, which is have a failed invasion, call a truce, put the squeeze on them while they rebuild and then flatten the place to take it.0 -
they are very easy words to say.rick_chasey said:In general I think European leaders are still too complacent about the prospect of a militaristic despot on their doorstep in charge of Russia and continuing to rely on the US which is getting increasingly stretched internationally, as they have as many, if not more, interests in Asia and the middle east.
Europe needs to get real about the prospect of the modern world and recognise that their obsession with austerity has impoverished us all but that's no excuse, and they will have to just feel the pain and pay for the rearmament, else it will be more costly in the long wrong.
Too much kicking stuff down the road hoping it will get better has not served Europe well since the 90s and will continue not to.
In the meantime they can bloody well pull off the shackles of parsimony and try to get both the economy and the military going again.
would you mind putting some numbers to them and then how you are going to pay for it... ie what would you cut?
I am not sure axing the triple lock, winter fuel allowance and child benefit to send shells to Ukraine for the forseeable future is a vote winner0 -
I am no expert but they seem to find money, billions, for pointless tax breaks all across Europe, so I'd start there.
So if you want to boost 2% of GDP on the military to say 3,% or 4%, I guess that's what, increasing govt expenditure by what,8%?
I mean, in a sensible world you do this in lockstep with the whole of Europe as the UK doing it unilaterally is p!ssing in the wind, but yeah, you'd have to scenario it out, whether it makes sense for temporary taxes at the top end, or cutting various social securities or whatever.
Gotta share the pain out somewhere. And pain it is.
The EU has some advantages here as they could centralise the financing to reduce the cost of financing it that way, and perhaps the EU could be the bogeyman and essentially be the PR front for the individual nations to slap on a war-tax.
I would argue the pain for that is less than the cost of having a Russian occupied Ukraine, genuinely.0 -
Words I never expected to see!rick_chasey said:I am no expert but they seem to find money, billions, for pointless tax breaks all across Europe, so I'd start there.
So if you want to boost 2% of GDP on the military to say 3,% or 4%, I guess that's what, increasing govt expenditure by what,8%?
I mean, in a sensible world you do this in lockstep with the whole of Europe as the UK doing it unilaterally is p!ssing in the wind, but yeah, you'd have to scenario it out, whether it makes sense for temporary taxes at the top end, or cutting various social securities or whatever.
Gotta share the pain out somewhere. And pain it is.
The EU has some advantages here as they could centralise the financing to reduce the cost of financing it that way, and perhaps the EU could be the bogeyman and essentially be the PR front for the individual nations to slap on a war-tax.
I would argue the pain for that is less than the cost of having a Russian occupied Ukraine, genuinely.2 -
I presume Russia just has to hold on until Trump is back in the White House...0
-
I guess you start from the position you need to find the funding from somewhere ,and work back from there, mixture of financing and tax rises/spending cuts, and you go from the least important down.0
-
Focus on the UK. Assume that we are maxed out on borrowing.rick_chasey said:I guess you start from the position you need to find the funding from somewhere ,and work back from there, mixture of financing and tax rises/spending cuts, and you go from the least important down.
How much do you think we should put in per annum for the next decade?
Now what areas of spending are you going to deprioritise?
Just back of a fag packet - where would you find £10-20bn pa that was politically doable?1 -
People like Putin think that democracies are soft and do not have the appetite for the long term sacrfices to fight a war. Trump is just the icing on the cake.Jezyboy said:I presume Russia just has to hold on until Trump is back in the White House...
I see this thread as a barometer of the propaganda pumped out. Whilst it has never been acknowledged that the massive summer offensive was a failure there has been a dramatic fall in the positive messaging.
I have not changed my mind that they will end up with a new border roughly where they are now where the water forms a natural boundary1
