The Big 'Let's sell our cars and take buses/ebikes instead' thread (warning: probably very dull)

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  • webboo
    webboo Posts: 6,087
    A quick google says £29,995 for a Clio.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,828

    If the cost of EVs is not going to go down significantly over the next few years, I fear many of us will give up on cars after 2030. Currently, an EV demands about 2.5 times the price tag of an equivalent petrol car… admittedly, this is based on the Renault range only


    I'd probably join the local car-sharing club at that point. I only really use a car for getting to concerts I'm playing in, and the Almera is cheap motoring as long as it lasts, but there's no way I could justify an expensive EV as a replacement... so although the charging structure would take a sizeable chunk out of the fee for individual gigs, it's still probably less than keeping the Almera on the road for a year - it's just that I don't notice the cost per gig, as the running cost is spread over the year.
  • I drive only when necessary. My main issues, largely from an environmental perspective, are people using cars unnecessarily (i.e. for literally every journey they make) and unnecessary cars (people in big cities driving 4 x 4).

    The comments about living in the countryside and how abysmal public transport can be, don't factor in a key issue here, wealth and social disparity. Many people don't have the luxury of buying a detached house in a rural area or can afford to run a car. Public transport isn't cheap to use. For the cost it should be far far better, the simple reason it isn't, is that money from profits which should be invested is siphoned off to shareholders (hence the RMT strikes). It's great if you have a car and can afford to travel around, if not, you have no option but to suffer buses, trains etc.

    The other major issue is with a crumbling and inefficient transport infrastruture, too many cars on the road, long term prospects of fossil fuels, cost of electric cars etc, transport as a whole is going to need a major rethink in the next few decades.
  • Yeah, a Zoe is about 30 grand… the equivalent size Renault in petrol flavour is probably a Twingo… which is about 10 grand… maybe a bit more with all bells and whistles. Interestingly, the latter has a lot more range per “charge” of juice. If a Zoe was 15 grand, that would catch my lazy eye… but I don’t think they will ever come down that much. Reality is that some Chinese manufacturer will step in to cover the budget side of the market… inevitably European manufacturers will go bust, ask for rescue funds, because they ignored the fact that people are getting poorer, not richer
    left the forum March 2023
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 14,615
    You should know as well as anyone else that a datum, not data, and is specific to the absolute lowest end of the market, due to base price of batteries.
  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    what public transport/ebike fetishists are also forgetting is that those methods of transport are perfect if you are time rich, but for someone who is working, has kids, activities, etc you can't do it.

    no one i know who isn't not working/retired has time to wait around for public transport and to spend time on the longer journeys.

    example - in laws live in Portsmouth. Went to go snd see their mates in Ross on Wye the other day.

    So, ferry Gosport to Portsmouth. Bus to station. train to Gloucester. Bus to Ross. Walk to friends. Blimmin' hours and loads of hassle.

    They don't mind as they are retired and have given up their car because they have gone all green and hippy, so bike and public transport.

    even they say it would just have been easier and quicker to drive and they dig this public transport lark.

    for the rest of us with jobs, families, etc? Nah, not so much.

    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435
    Biggest issue with electric cars aside from charging infrastructure is the lack of a second hand market and even when there is one I’m not sure I would want to fork out on a car with a 5 year old battery.
  • You should know as well as anyone else that a datum, not data, and is specific to the absolute lowest end of the market, due to base price of batteries.

    Yes, but that's where a lot of people, including myself belong.
    I suppose I could join the increasing army of folks prepared to take up loans (also called lease) the size of a small mortgage to buy an asset that will be worthless within ten years, but I'm not prepared to do that... so the 10-15 grand mark is the absolute limit for me to buy something new or delivery mileage.
    There will be a second hand market for these things, but as every device we own teach us... what's the range of a second hand EV?
    My phone/laptop/Garmin/everything powered by a Li ion battery has barely any capacity left after 5 years and needs a new battery.

    left the forum March 2023
  • what public transport/ebike fetishists are also forgetting is that those methods of transport are perfect if you are time rich, but for someone who is working, has kids, activities, etc you can't do it.


    That's a bold statement MF! My partner is a support worker, she can't drive and takes buses everywhere. Her work schedule is packed and she is late for meetings constantly due to late/never arrived buses. She certainly isn't time rich.

    I know numerous people that work full time and can't drive or choose to commute by public transport as it is either cheaper or quicker (try driving to work anywhere around Brum during morning rush hour, absolute fckucking nightmare!).

    I commuted via buses/tubes for years in London/SE and Mids, majority of passengers were clearly people on their way to work, definitely not people with time on their hands to dawdle!
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 25,706

    what public transport/ebike fetishists are also forgetting is that those methods of transport are perfect if you are time rich, but for someone who is working, has kids, activities, etc you can't do it.


    That's a bold statement MF! ...
    The whole principle of PT depends on the level of service. If there's a good service then it will work, if there's not then it won't. This has to be a case of build it and they will come.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • photonic69
    photonic69 Posts: 2,415



    .....what's the range of a second hand EV?
    My phone/laptop/Garmin/everything powered by a Li ion battery has barely any capacity left after 5 years and needs a new battery.



    Tesla are working on the 'million mile battery' and a lot of manufacturers are claiming their batteries are good for in excess of 200,000 miles. They can then be repurposed for home electricity storage etc.
    Not many car manufacturers will claim their engines are good for 200,000 miles. We know they probably are if they are well serviced. I've seen plenty of cars with shagged engines at 60,000 miles.


    Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.

  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    edited December 2022

    what public transport/ebike fetishists are also forgetting is that those methods of transport are perfect if you are time rich, but for someone who is working, has kids, activities, etc you can't do it.


    That's a bold statement MF! My partner is a support worker, she can't drive and takes buses everywhere. Her work schedule is packed and she is late for meetings constantly due to late/never arrived buses. She certainly isn't time rich.

    I know numerous people that work full time and can't drive or choose to commute by public transport as it is either cheaper or quicker (try driving to work anywhere around Brum during morning rush hour, absolute fckucking nightmare!).

    I commuted via buses/tubes for years in London/SE and Mids, majority of passengers were clearly people on their way to work, definitely not people with time on their hands to dawdle!
    your wife is not a fetishist, she's a user. Rick is a fetishist.

    you've just confirmed what I posted exactly.

    public transport doesn't work for someone who is busy/has a normal life.

    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,828
    MattFalle said:

    what public transport/ebike fetishists are also forgetting is that those methods of transport are perfect if you are time rich, but for someone who is working, has kids, activities, etc you can't do it.

    no one i know who isn't not working/retired has time to wait around for public transport and to spend time on the longer journeys.

    example - in laws live in Portsmouth. Went to go snd see their mates in Ross on Wye the other day.

    So, ferry Gosport to Portsmouth. Bus to station. train to Gloucester. Bus to Ross. Walk to friends. Blimmin' hours and loads of hassle.

    They don't mind as they are retired and have given up their car because they have gone all green and hippy, so bike and public transport.

    even they say it would just have been easier and quicker to drive and they dig this public transport lark.

    for the rest of us with jobs, families, etc? Nah, not so much.


    And that's why we're stuck in this doomsday scenario: the vast majority structuring their lives around easy & cheap car usage, and so the cycle sees no end. (I got a similar response on FB from a parent at a local primary school when I noted the amount of polluting cars driving up to the school front gates, along narrow lanes with no pavements: the "only way" she could manage it was to drive one child to the (state) primary school, drive the other child to an independent school in Exeter, then drive to work. She couldn't even spare 20 minutes once in a while to help with a walking bus from the local rugby club.) It's a mindset which tends to stop people trying to think about different ways of doing things, or accepting that, despite their taking longer, alternative options could exist, if they planned things differently. And that includes big decisions about where to live, etc.

    It's an interesting exercise to consider what impact suddenly being deprived of a car would have on your life.
  • super_davo
    super_davo Posts: 1,126
    I thought this was a bike site...

    I'm not going to sell my car, but I know from experience that at commuting time, the difference in time between cycling and driving can be tiny, even over quite large distances. When I lived 10 miles from my office, my wife worked at the same place and we'd both leave home at the same time and arrive at the office same time most days (we finished at different times). But her time was way more variable than mine - I'd take 35 minutes every day, she'd take 25 when the schools are off and almost an hour when some of the major roads were knocked out and traffic diverted to the roads we took. I now live 20 miles from the office and go in 1-2 days a week, my ride in is about 1 hour 5; the drive is between 40 minutes and an hour but it is pretty grim stop start traffic on the A127.

    Now that is only looking at things from the prospect of time but the reason I do it is that I hate the drive and enjoy the cycle - the fact it keeps me fit & saves money are just a bonus. Possibly not an option for everybody due to distance, but the amount of people that live way closer and drive in; it doesn't enter their heads that cycling is an option because so many people are conditioned that everyone drives everywhere. E-bikes can take out some of the age / fitness obstacles. And this is not working in "the city" but in an out of town complex near Basildon.

    If I had to take public transport though... the trains where I live are OK if you need to get to central London but buses are woeful and cost more than parking. The economics are such that it doesn't make any sense to use them once you've already paid for the car, insurance etc.
  • public transport doesn't work for someone who is busy/has a normal life.


    Don't disagree with that MF. I was just making the distinction between those that choose to use public transport, usually for ideological reasons, and those that have no choice other than to use it. I would also think the majority fall into the latter category.
  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    edited December 2022

    public transport doesn't work for someone who is busy/has a normal life.


    Don't disagree with that MF. I was just making the distinction between those that choose to use public transport, usually for ideological reasons, and those that have no choice other than to use it. I would also think the majority fall into the latter category.
    agree 100%
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,593
    edited December 2022
    MattFalle said:

    what public transport/ebike fetishists are also forgetting is that those methods of transport are perfect if you are time rich, but for someone who is working, has kids, activities, etc you can't do it.

    no one i know who isn't not working/retired has time to wait around for public transport and to spend time on the longer journeys.

    example - in laws live in Portsmouth. Went to go snd see their mates in Ross on Wye the other day.

    So, ferry Gosport to Portsmouth. Bus to station. train to Gloucester. Bus to Ross. Walk to friends. Blimmin' hours and loads of hassle.

    They don't mind as they are retired and have given up their car because they have gone all green and hippy, so bike and public transport.

    even they say it would just have been easier and quicker to drive and they dig this public transport lark.

    for the rest of us with jobs, families, etc? Nah, not so much.

    Takes the same time for me to get from South London suburbia to Pershore by train as by car. Often longer if there's a holdup on the M25 or M4. The car is slightly more flexible but the train is a lot less hard work and allows you to do something else while you travel. Everyone has an anecdote that 'proves' their POV.

    Planning only requires you to type two place names into Google Maps, so not really an issue these days.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435
    rjsterry said:

    MattFalle said:

    what public transport/ebike fetishists are also forgetting is that those methods of transport are perfect if you are time rich, but for someone who is working, has kids, activities, etc you can't do it.

    no one i know who isn't not working/retired has time to wait around for public transport and to spend time on the longer journeys.

    example - in laws live in Portsmouth. Went to go snd see their mates in Ross on Wye the other day.

    So, ferry Gosport to Portsmouth. Bus to station. train to Gloucester. Bus to Ross. Walk to friends. Blimmin' hours and loads of hassle.

    They don't mind as they are retired and have given up their car because they have gone all green and hippy, so bike and public transport.

    even they say it would just have been easier and quicker to drive and they dig this public transport lark.

    for the rest of us with jobs, families, etc? Nah, not so much.

    Takes the same time for me to get from South London suburbia to Pershore by train as by car. Often longer if there's a holdup on the M25 or M4. The car is slightly more flexible but the train is a lot less hard work and allows you to do something else while you travel. Everyone has an anecdote that 'proves' their POV.

    Planning only requires you to type two place names into Google Maps, so not really an issue these days.
    I think the key there is the starting point though to be fair. All roads (railways) lead to London as it were. I’ve had numerous site meetings I’ve needed to attend for 10.00am where there is literally no way to get there in time by public transport leaving the same day whereas I could leave at 5.30-6.00am by car.

    Whilst I don’t mind driving, especially through more rural areas, most meetings I would rather cover by train as I can just relax and read or maybe even do some work but it just isn’t viable. Sticking extra services and stations on existing lines doesn’t really help either, you’d need far more routes to allow for direct trains or to at least have changes on a reasonably direct line. A lot of the routes I would have had to take involved two sides of a triangle as the hypotenuse doesn’t have an option.
  • photonic69
    photonic69 Posts: 2,415
    Typical example from local news website today. Incidents like this are bound to get worse as car usage increases.


    Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.

  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435

    Typical example from local news website today. Incidents like this are bound to get worse as car usage increases.

    Not sure why they are stuck in ‘tiny country lanes’ when the A38 runs parallel to the M5.
  • photonic69
    photonic69 Posts: 2,415
    Pross said:

    Typical example from local news website today. Incidents like this are bound to get worse as car usage increases.

    Not sure why they are stuck in ‘tiny country lanes’ when the A38 runs parallel to the M5.
    "Tomtom has found a route that is 23 minutes quicker. Do you wish to take it?"


    Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.

  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,828

    Pross said:

    Typical example from local news website today. Incidents like this are bound to get worse as car usage increases.

    Not sure why they are stuck in ‘tiny country lanes’ when the A38 runs parallel to the M5.
    "Tomtom has found a route that is 23 minutes quicker. Do you wish to take it?"
    More likely Google Maps, but yes. Similar happened to me, though I made the mistake of *not* using G Maps to check the sneaky route I headed for when the M5 viaduct over the Exe was blocked, and ended up stuck in a lane with cars & vans coming both ways.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 27,593
    Pross said:

    rjsterry said:

    MattFalle said:

    what public transport/ebike fetishists are also forgetting is that those methods of transport are perfect if you are time rich, but for someone who is working, has kids, activities, etc you can't do it.

    no one i know who isn't not working/retired has time to wait around for public transport and to spend time on the longer journeys.

    example - in laws live in Portsmouth. Went to go snd see their mates in Ross on Wye the other day.

    So, ferry Gosport to Portsmouth. Bus to station. train to Gloucester. Bus to Ross. Walk to friends. Blimmin' hours and loads of hassle.

    They don't mind as they are retired and have given up their car because they have gone all green and hippy, so bike and public transport.

    even they say it would just have been easier and quicker to drive and they dig this public transport lark.

    for the rest of us with jobs, families, etc? Nah, not so much.

    Takes the same time for me to get from South London suburbia to Pershore by train as by car. Often longer if there's a holdup on the M25 or M4. The car is slightly more flexible but the train is a lot less hard work and allows you to do something else while you travel. Everyone has an anecdote that 'proves' their POV.

    Planning only requires you to type two place names into Google Maps, so not really an issue these days.
    I think the key there is the starting point though to be fair. All roads (railways) lead to London as it were. I’ve had numerous site meetings I’ve needed to attend for 10.00am where there is literally no way to get there in time by public transport leaving the same day whereas I could leave at 5.30-6.00am by car.

    Whilst I don’t mind driving, especially through more rural areas, most meetings I would rather cover by train as I can just relax and read or maybe even do some work but it just isn’t viable. Sticking extra services and stations on existing lines doesn’t really help either, you’d need far more routes to allow for direct trains or to at least have changes on a reasonably direct line. A lot of the routes I would have had to take involved two sides of a triangle as the hypotenuse doesn’t have an option.
    Sure. I didn't end up living here or working in central London by accident. I think (I CBA to read back through this accurately sub-titled thread) part of Rick's point was that transport infrastructure will always has favour urban centres because that's where most stuff happens. Even Victorian railways struggled to make a go of rural branch lines when the only alternative was horse drawn, so I'm not sure there's a workable model for full geographical coverage public transport. Some places are always going to be harder to get to. And the MFs can live in one of those so that they don't have to suffer other people.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 40,435
    I still feels there’s a balance between developing a public transport network people want to use and creating communities where far less travel is needed. Even if everyone was in large urban communities they would have travel issues with everything being centralised within the centre of that area.

    The world Rick was talking about basically forced everyone into urban living unless they were prepared to pay huge cost of personal transportation yet he seems reluctant to countenance making any changes to the way he manages his life (simply has to be London with face to face meetings as that’s how it has always been done).
  • photonic69
    photonic69 Posts: 2,415
    Really what needs to be done is more Park & Ride facilities for each large town/city and ban private cars from the centers. Have great bus services to and from or hire bike depots or even self driving electric cars (or similar) that'll drop you off where needed and drive themselves back to the base for the next demand.

    Cool. Now that's sorted let's discuss something else.


    Sometimes. Maybe. Possibly.

  • MattFalle
    MattFalle Posts: 11,644
    edited December 2022
    I honestly don't understand why you lot keep banging on about bikes being the saviour. really quite bizarre
    .
    The camera down the willy isn't anything like as bad as it sounds.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,383
    edited December 2022
    We might get more of a taste of Ricktopia after Citizen Khan expands the ULEZ to the whole of the greater London area. Anyone who can't afford a more modern car is going to get hit with a £12.50 charge every time they go in - or £12.50 every day if they live there. Looks like they need the money...
    https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/12/17/inside-sadiq-khans-ulez-cash-machine/

    OK if you can afford it I suppose, tough for the rest.

    Glad I got out last year, quite timely.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,828
    Stevo_666 said:

    Ironically we might get a taste of Ricktopia after Citizen Khan expands the ULEZ to the whole of the greater London area. Anyone who can't afford a more modern car is going to get hit with a £12.50 charge every time they go in - or £12.50 every day if they live there. Looks like they need the money...
    https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/12/17/inside-sadiq-khans-ulez-cash-machine/

    OK if you can afford it I suppose, tough for the rest.

    Glad I got out last year, quite timely.


    Unfortunately it seems that car drivers will put up with a lot of economic pain (and traffic jams) to hold onto old habits. It's a chicken & egg game as far as getting people out of their cars and onto other forms of transport: the authorities & transport businesses find it hard to justify massive outlay if they don't perceive the demand is there for the future, but until the infrastructure is there, commuters are unlikely to change in massive numbers. So you're left with a choice of diktat and/or economic sanctions to change behaviour.

    As many people have mentioned, it's still often cheaper to drive, and the £12.50 sounds like a proportionate nudge to get people to change behaviour.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 58,383
    edited December 2022
    And ironically when the ULEZ was set to expand to the North and South Circulars I pre-emptively sold my perfectly good diesel runabout (which did 40-50mpg but was non ULEZ compliant) and bought my current car which gets half of that mpg on a good day but is ULEZ compliant. Every cloud... :)
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 17,828
    The thing is, at least London has half-decent alternatives to driving a car from the peripheries. And if people still insist on finding excuses for not using them, then they can't really justifiably moan about having to pay for ignoring the alternatives.