Energy thread
Comments
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Everyone's heating and financial situation is different so there isn't a one-size fits all model and I'm not really here to judge people's individual choices as there's more that goes into it than is worth sharing tbh.blazing_saddles said:
Judging from the lack of response to your various "global scale"posts, Rick, I think most folks are still far more concerned with their costs of keeping warm, this winter.rick_chasey said:Govt support or price caps don't address the underlying issue which is scarcity of gas.
So if you're not using the market price to signal people to use less, as you're capping the price (or giving equivalent support via other means), how do you make people use less?
Even with a cap of around £2500, the poor are still going to be faced with either keeping the kids warm, or fed. Global shortages aren't going to mean much to the folks who can't afford to use it in the first place.
Not until they can't access the internet or steaming services, at least....
My worry is that this energy crisis is the catalyst for a much wider economic problem across Europe. The sheer amount of GDP that Europe, UK included, is going to spend on energy vs normal is so big it's hard not to see a massive catastrophe.
Even if everyone is bailed out, firms and households, then there's a decent chance we just run out of energy anyway and we're all forced to go without power regardless (if it's a cold winter)0 -
Is there anything an average punter can do about that worry?rick_chasey said:
Everyone's heating and financial situation is different so there isn't a one-size fits all model and I'm not really here to judge people's individual choices as there's more that goes into it than is worth sharing tbh.blazing_saddles said:
Judging from the lack of response to your various "global scale"posts, Rick, I think most folks are still far more concerned with their costs of keeping warm, this winter.rick_chasey said:Govt support or price caps don't address the underlying issue which is scarcity of gas.
So if you're not using the market price to signal people to use less, as you're capping the price (or giving equivalent support via other means), how do you make people use less?
Even with a cap of around £2500, the poor are still going to be faced with either keeping the kids warm, or fed. Global shortages aren't going to mean much to the folks who can't afford to use it in the first place.
Not until they can't access the internet or steaming services, at least....
My worry is that this energy crisis is the catalyst for a much wider economic problem across Europe. The sheer amount of GDP that Europe, UK included, is going to spend on energy vs normal is so big it's hard not to see a massive catastrophe.
Even if everyone is bailed out, firms and households, then there's a decent chance we just run out of energy anyway and we're all forced to go without power regardless (if it's a cold winter)
Install a wood burner I guess...- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
pangolin said:
Is there anything an average punter can do about that worry?rick_chasey said:
Everyone's heating and financial situation is different so there isn't a one-size fits all model and I'm not really here to judge people's individual choices as there's more that goes into it than is worth sharing tbh.blazing_saddles said:
Judging from the lack of response to your various "global scale"posts, Rick, I think most folks are still far more concerned with their costs of keeping warm, this winter.rick_chasey said:Govt support or price caps don't address the underlying issue which is scarcity of gas.
So if you're not using the market price to signal people to use less, as you're capping the price (or giving equivalent support via other means), how do you make people use less?
Even with a cap of around £2500, the poor are still going to be faced with either keeping the kids warm, or fed. Global shortages aren't going to mean much to the folks who can't afford to use it in the first place.
Not until they can't access the internet or steaming services, at least....
My worry is that this energy crisis is the catalyst for a much wider economic problem across Europe. The sheer amount of GDP that Europe, UK included, is going to spend on energy vs normal is so big it's hard not to see a massive catastrophe.
Even if everyone is bailed out, firms and households, then there's a decent chance we just run out of energy anyway and we're all forced to go without power regardless (if it's a cold winter)
Install a wood burner I guess...
Wood suppliers will know they can charge more too...0 -
We had this debate already and TBB explained to me why scrapping this could ot be done. I would find a way as it just strikes me as the most logical option. It is laughably stupid that we have an electricity pricing mechanism that can so easily be manipulated by Putin even though so little of our electricity i generated by gas. He must laugh himseld to sleep at night.rick_chasey said:I hadn't realised the price paid for electricity is the marginal cost for the most expensive final powerplant needed to fill the energy order.
If i've got it right it goes like this:
eg. if 95% of energy is produced at $1 per unit, but the final 5% needed to fill the order can only be produced at $5 per unit, the price of the energy for the full lot is $5 per unit. The powerplant that produces at $10 per unit isn't needed, because the order is filled with the cheaper options.
Because the UK has lots of gas plants, it can't fill up the order without gas fuelled powerplants, ergo big prices all round.
Ironically, most of the cheaper renewables won't see the revenues for this because the way the market is structured they're pushed to lock into big forward contracts.
(this is all from the podcast above by the way).0 -
I had assumed that the point you were making you have highlighted in your last paragraph and I agree.rick_chasey said:
Everyone's heating and financial situation is different so there isn't a one-size fits all model and I'm not really here to judge people's individual choices as there's more that goes into it than is worth sharing tbh.blazing_saddles said:
Judging from the lack of response to your various "global scale"posts, Rick, I think most folks are still far more concerned with their costs of keeping warm, this winter.rick_chasey said:Govt support or price caps don't address the underlying issue which is scarcity of gas.
So if you're not using the market price to signal people to use less, as you're capping the price (or giving equivalent support via other means), how do you make people use less?
Even with a cap of around £2500, the poor are still going to be faced with either keeping the kids warm, or fed. Global shortages aren't going to mean much to the folks who can't afford to use it in the first place.
Not until they can't access the internet or steaming services, at least....
My worry is that this energy crisis is the catalyst for a much wider economic problem across Europe. The sheer amount of GDP that Europe, UK included, is going to spend on energy vs normal is so big it's hard not to see a massive catastrophe.
Even if everyone is bailed out, firms and households, then there's a decent chance we just run out of energy anyway and we're all forced to go without power regardless (if it's a cold winter)
Bailing everyone out is hardly going to encourage the mid earners and above to cut usage and therefore demand.
It inevitably boils down to the social injustice inherent in the ability to pay.
A price cap where one group is faced with Everest to climb, while another group is faced with a speed bump. Zero incentive to make cut backs.
I think for the majority here you are preaching to the converted.
"Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Plus as has been covered elsewhere, not all wood supplies are equal.briantrumpet said:pangolin said:
Is there anything an average punter can do about that worry?rick_chasey said:
Everyone's heating and financial situation is different so there isn't a one-size fits all model and I'm not really here to judge people's individual choices as there's more that goes into it than is worth sharing tbh.blazing_saddles said:
Judging from the lack of response to your various "global scale"posts, Rick, I think most folks are still far more concerned with their costs of keeping warm, this winter.rick_chasey said:Govt support or price caps don't address the underlying issue which is scarcity of gas.
So if you're not using the market price to signal people to use less, as you're capping the price (or giving equivalent support via other means), how do you make people use less?
Even with a cap of around £2500, the poor are still going to be faced with either keeping the kids warm, or fed. Global shortages aren't going to mean much to the folks who can't afford to use it in the first place.
Not until they can't access the internet or steaming services, at least....
My worry is that this energy crisis is the catalyst for a much wider economic problem across Europe. The sheer amount of GDP that Europe, UK included, is going to spend on energy vs normal is so big it's hard not to see a massive catastrophe.
Even if everyone is bailed out, firms and households, then there's a decent chance we just run out of energy anyway and we're all forced to go without power regardless (if it's a cold winter)
Install a wood burner I guess...
Wood suppliers will know they can charge more too...The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
you won't get a woodburner before Spring.pangolin said:
Is there anything an average punter can do about that worry?rick_chasey said:
Everyone's heating and financial situation is different so there isn't a one-size fits all model and I'm not really here to judge people's individual choices as there's more that goes into it than is worth sharing tbh.blazing_saddles said:
Judging from the lack of response to your various "global scale"posts, Rick, I think most folks are still far more concerned with their costs of keeping warm, this winter.rick_chasey said:Govt support or price caps don't address the underlying issue which is scarcity of gas.
So if you're not using the market price to signal people to use less, as you're capping the price (or giving equivalent support via other means), how do you make people use less?
Even with a cap of around £2500, the poor are still going to be faced with either keeping the kids warm, or fed. Global shortages aren't going to mean much to the folks who can't afford to use it in the first place.
Not until they can't access the internet or steaming services, at least....
My worry is that this energy crisis is the catalyst for a much wider economic problem across Europe. The sheer amount of GDP that Europe, UK included, is going to spend on energy vs normal is so big it's hard not to see a massive catastrophe.
Even if everyone is bailed out, firms and households, then there's a decent chance we just run out of energy anyway and we're all forced to go without power regardless (if it's a cold winter)
Install a wood burner I guess...
My theory is that whatever you do you won't shave more than 10% off your bill so you may as well look for savings elsewhere (or earn more)1 -
This is the same as any market place. The price of oil isn't based on the individual cost of production. Supply demand curve etc.rick_chasey said:I hadn't realised the price paid for electricity is the marginal cost for the most expensive final powerplant needed to fill the energy order.
If i've got it right it goes like this:
eg. if 95% of energy is produced at $1 per unit, but the final 5% needed to fill the order can only be produced at $5 per unit, the price of the energy for the full lot is $5 per unit. The powerplant that produces at $10 per unit isn't needed, because the order is filled with the cheaper options.
Because the UK has lots of gas plants, it can't fill up the order without gas fuelled powerplants, ergo big prices all round.
Ironically, most of the cheaper renewables won't see the revenues for this because the way the market is structured they're pushed to lock into big forward contracts.
(this is all from the podcast above by the way).
Also, as mentioned before, LCCC which is the government's CFD counterparty for renewables is currently making a killing. I'd like to know how much and what is happening to it.0 -
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I can see some thickos making no effort to reduce consumption then complaining they are being charged more than the 'cap'. I know it has always been reported this way but it has had so much media attention recently that I can see the headline number filtering down to those who normally wouldn't give it any attention.wallace_and_gromit said:
The "Capped at £2,500" angles come from media outlets giving figures for a typical household to put things in a more easily understood context. This is quite helpful as I'm not sure many people think in terms of 25p per kwh of electricity (or whatever the figure may be; I wouldn't claim to even know the units for mains gas) but not so helpful for those with atypically high usage as their annual bill will be higher than £2,500 even under the cap.First.Aspect said:
It's a unit price cap, so you'll still pay for what you use.seanoconn said:May we’ll have been mentioned earlier in the thread and I may well be missing something but if the price cap of £2,500 comes into fruition, are you likely to save anything by being careful with your energy supply?
When Truss first announced it there were people texting in to Radio 5 asking how it would affect those who had signed up to a higher fixed rate thinking they were going to be beating the rises (despite all the advice I had heard being not to fix at this time). Not quite sure what the situation is now for those people.0 -
Yeah I'm not actually getting one. My neighbour installs them so I did enquire back in Spring but decided against it.surrey_commuter said:
you won't get a woodburner before Spring.pangolin said:
Is there anything an average punter can do about that worry?rick_chasey said:
Everyone's heating and financial situation is different so there isn't a one-size fits all model and I'm not really here to judge people's individual choices as there's more that goes into it than is worth sharing tbh.blazing_saddles said:
Judging from the lack of response to your various "global scale"posts, Rick, I think most folks are still far more concerned with their costs of keeping warm, this winter.rick_chasey said:Govt support or price caps don't address the underlying issue which is scarcity of gas.
So if you're not using the market price to signal people to use less, as you're capping the price (or giving equivalent support via other means), how do you make people use less?
Even with a cap of around £2500, the poor are still going to be faced with either keeping the kids warm, or fed. Global shortages aren't going to mean much to the folks who can't afford to use it in the first place.
Not until they can't access the internet or steaming services, at least....
My worry is that this energy crisis is the catalyst for a much wider economic problem across Europe. The sheer amount of GDP that Europe, UK included, is going to spend on energy vs normal is so big it's hard not to see a massive catastrophe.
Even if everyone is bailed out, firms and households, then there's a decent chance we just run out of energy anyway and we're all forced to go without power regardless (if it's a cold winter)
Install a wood burner I guess...
My theory is that whatever you do you won't shave more than 10% off your bill so you may as well look for savings elsewhere (or earn more)- Genesis Croix de Fer
- Dolan Tuono0 -
That could be a sort of tax on stupidity, which isn't always a bad ideaPross said:
I can see some thickos making no effort to reduce consumption then complaining they are being charged more than the 'cap'. I know it has always been reported this way but it has had so much media attention recently that I can see the headline number filtering down to those who normally wouldn't give it any attention.wallace_and_gromit said:
The "Capped at £2,500" angles come from media outlets giving figures for a typical household to put things in a more easily understood context. This is quite helpful as I'm not sure many people think in terms of 25p per kwh of electricity (or whatever the figure may be; I wouldn't claim to even know the units for mains gas) but not so helpful for those with atypically high usage as their annual bill will be higher than £2,500 even under the cap.First.Aspect said:
It's a unit price cap, so you'll still pay for what you use.seanoconn said:May we’ll have been mentioned earlier in the thread and I may well be missing something but if the price cap of £2,500 comes into fruition, are you likely to save anything by being careful with your energy supply?
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Stevo_666 said:
That could be a sort of tax on stupidity, which isn't always a bad ideaPross said:
I can see some thickos making no effort to reduce consumption then complaining they are being charged more than the 'cap'. I know it has always been reported this way but it has had so much media attention recently that I can see the headline number filtering down to those who normally wouldn't give it any attention.wallace_and_gromit said:
The "Capped at £2,500" angles come from media outlets giving figures for a typical household to put things in a more easily understood context. This is quite helpful as I'm not sure many people think in terms of 25p per kwh of electricity (or whatever the figure may be; I wouldn't claim to even know the units for mains gas) but not so helpful for those with atypically high usage as their annual bill will be higher than £2,500 even under the cap.First.Aspect said:
It's a unit price cap, so you'll still pay for what you use.seanoconn said:May we’ll have been mentioned earlier in the thread and I may well be missing something but if the price cap of £2,500 comes into fruition, are you likely to save anything by being careful with your energy supply?
We've already got the national lottery...2 -
When our last fix ended we kept reading Martin Lewis's increasingly gloomy Cornwall Insight predictions, dithered about and finally fixed at a rate which would be a bit better that the October then January hikes.
Fortunately there's no exit penalty... 0 -
That was the original one. Recall someone trying to explain the logic to people who needed a bit of help as 'if you got odds of 14 million to 1 on a horse, would you put a lot of money on it?"briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
That could be a sort of tax on stupidity, which isn't always a bad ideaPross said:
I can see some thickos making no effort to reduce consumption then complaining they are being charged more than the 'cap'. I know it has always been reported this way but it has had so much media attention recently that I can see the headline number filtering down to those who normally wouldn't give it any attention.wallace_and_gromit said:
The "Capped at £2,500" angles come from media outlets giving figures for a typical household to put things in a more easily understood context. This is quite helpful as I'm not sure many people think in terms of 25p per kwh of electricity (or whatever the figure may be; I wouldn't claim to even know the units for mains gas) but not so helpful for those with atypically high usage as their annual bill will be higher than £2,500 even under the cap.First.Aspect said:
It's a unit price cap, so you'll still pay for what you use.seanoconn said:May we’ll have been mentioned earlier in the thread and I may well be missing something but if the price cap of £2,500 comes into fruition, are you likely to save anything by being careful with your energy supply?
We've already got the national lottery...
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I'd certainly put £1 (£1.50 these days??) on it assuming it had all 4 legs but then it would be in a field of maybe 20 at most.Stevo_666 said:
That was the original one. Recall someone trying to explain the logic to people who needed a bit of help as 'if you got odds of 14 million to 1 on a horse, would you put a lot of money on it?"briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
That could be a sort of tax on stupidity, which isn't always a bad ideaPross said:
I can see some thickos making no effort to reduce consumption then complaining they are being charged more than the 'cap'. I know it has always been reported this way but it has had so much media attention recently that I can see the headline number filtering down to those who normally wouldn't give it any attention.wallace_and_gromit said:
The "Capped at £2,500" angles come from media outlets giving figures for a typical household to put things in a more easily understood context. This is quite helpful as I'm not sure many people think in terms of 25p per kwh of electricity (or whatever the figure may be; I wouldn't claim to even know the units for mains gas) but not so helpful for those with atypically high usage as their annual bill will be higher than £2,500 even under the cap.First.Aspect said:
It's a unit price cap, so you'll still pay for what you use.seanoconn said:May we’ll have been mentioned earlier in the thread and I may well be missing something but if the price cap of £2,500 comes into fruition, are you likely to save anything by being careful with your energy supply?
We've already got the national lottery...0 -
Truss quoted as saying shale gas will be flowing within 6 months. Has she ever tried to get planning permission for something? Her own Chancellor reckoned 10 years to achieve useful production when he wrote an article earlier this year.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I assume that she can't even just allow it when Parliament effectively banned it a few years ago. Won't it have to go back through some legislative procedure?rjsterry said:Truss quoted as saying shale gas will be flowing within 6 months. Has she ever tried to get planning permission for something? Her own Chancellor reckoned 10 years to achieve useful production when he wrote an article earlier this year.
They had it as one of the topics on Jeremy Vine earlier and pretty much everyone who commented whilst I was listening (only a few minutes, granted) thought it was a stupid knee jerk reaction. It was quite reassuring to hear people saying this should be the trigger for us moving away from fossil fuels no going to greater lengths to obtain more of them.0 -
🤣🤣🤣rjsterry said:Truss quoted as saying shale gas will be flowing within 6 months...
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
I think its a big assumption to make that a nag with those odds has 4 legs.Pross said:
I'd certainly put £1 (£1.50 these days??) on it assuming it had all 4 legs but then it would be in a field of maybe 20 at most.Stevo_666 said:
That was the original one. Recall someone trying to explain the logic to people who needed a bit of help as 'if you got odds of 14 million to 1 on a horse, would you put a lot of money on it?"briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
That could be a sort of tax on stupidity, which isn't always a bad ideaPross said:
I can see some thickos making no effort to reduce consumption then complaining they are being charged more than the 'cap'. I know it has always been reported this way but it has had so much media attention recently that I can see the headline number filtering down to those who normally wouldn't give it any attention.wallace_and_gromit said:
The "Capped at £2,500" angles come from media outlets giving figures for a typical household to put things in a more easily understood context. This is quite helpful as I'm not sure many people think in terms of 25p per kwh of electricity (or whatever the figure may be; I wouldn't claim to even know the units for mains gas) but not so helpful for those with atypically high usage as their annual bill will be higher than £2,500 even under the cap.First.Aspect said:
It's a unit price cap, so you'll still pay for what you use.seanoconn said:May we’ll have been mentioned earlier in the thread and I may well be missing something but if the price cap of £2,500 comes into fruition, are you likely to save anything by being careful with your energy supply?
We've already got the national lottery...
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
You'd need to remove the word "4".Stevo_666 said:
I think its a big assumption to make that a nag with those odds has 4 legs.Pross said:
I'd certainly put £1 (£1.50 these days??) on it assuming it had all 4 legs but then it would be in a field of maybe 20 at most.Stevo_666 said:
That was the original one. Recall someone trying to explain the logic to people who needed a bit of help as 'if you got odds of 14 million to 1 on a horse, would you put a lot of money on it?"briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
That could be a sort of tax on stupidity, which isn't always a bad ideaPross said:
I can see some thickos making no effort to reduce consumption then complaining they are being charged more than the 'cap'. I know it has always been reported this way but it has had so much media attention recently that I can see the headline number filtering down to those who normally wouldn't give it any attention.wallace_and_gromit said:
The "Capped at £2,500" angles come from media outlets giving figures for a typical household to put things in a more easily understood context. This is quite helpful as I'm not sure many people think in terms of 25p per kwh of electricity (or whatever the figure may be; I wouldn't claim to even know the units for mains gas) but not so helpful for those with atypically high usage as their annual bill will be higher than £2,500 even under the cap.First.Aspect said:
It's a unit price cap, so you'll still pay for what you use.seanoconn said:May we’ll have been mentioned earlier in the thread and I may well be missing something but if the price cap of £2,500 comes into fruition, are you likely to save anything by being careful with your energy supply?
We've already got the national lottery...0 -
I’m interested to know the mechanism for the government paying the difference to the energy suppliers. I assume it won’t be the difference between the cap and the cost price as it hasn’t been mentioned.0
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Tory Party dontation waivers?mully79 said:I’m interested to know the mechanism for the government paying the difference to the energy suppliers. I assume it won’t be the difference between the cap and the cost price as it hasn’t been mentioned.
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Bet there’s some nice gifts at Ofgem this XmasFirst.Aspect said:
Tory Party dontation waivers?mully79 said:I’m interested to know the mechanism for the government paying the difference to the energy suppliers. I assume it won’t be the difference between the cap and the cost price as it hasn’t been mentioned.
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mully79 said:
I’m interested to know the mechanism for the government paying the difference to the energy suppliers. I assume it won’t be the difference between the cap and the cost price as it hasn’t been mentioned.
Can't they just transfer over some of the fast track contracts given for PPE? I suspect it's coming out of the same pot...0 -
. . . and every other horse in the race would be at 14,000,000 to 1Pross said:
I'd certainly put £1 (£1.50 these days??) on it assuming it had all 4 legs but then it would be in a field of maybe 20 at most.Stevo_666 said:
That was the original one. Recall someone trying to explain the logic to people who needed a bit of help as 'if you got odds of 14 million to 1 on a horse, would you put a lot of money on it?"briantrumpet said:Stevo_666 said:
That could be a sort of tax on stupidity, which isn't always a bad ideaPross said:
I can see some thickos making no effort to reduce consumption then complaining they are being charged more than the 'cap'. I know it has always been reported this way but it has had so much media attention recently that I can see the headline number filtering down to those who normally wouldn't give it any attention.wallace_and_gromit said:
The "Capped at £2,500" angles come from media outlets giving figures for a typical household to put things in a more easily understood context. This is quite helpful as I'm not sure many people think in terms of 25p per kwh of electricity (or whatever the figure may be; I wouldn't claim to even know the units for mains gas) but not so helpful for those with atypically high usage as their annual bill will be higher than £2,500 even under the cap.First.Aspect said:
It's a unit price cap, so you'll still pay for what you use.seanoconn said:May we’ll have been mentioned earlier in the thread and I may well be missing something but if the price cap of £2,500 comes into fruition, are you likely to save anything by being careful with your energy supply?
We've already got the national lottery...Wilier Izoard XP0 -
I think you're right. Cut down on booze, crushed avocado on toast etc. Shower at work etc.surrey_commuter said:
you won't get a woodburner before Spring.pangolin said:
Is there anything an average punter can do about that worry?rick_chasey said:
Everyone's heating and financial situation is different so there isn't a one-size fits all model and I'm not really here to judge people's individual choices as there's more that goes into it than is worth sharing tbh.blazing_saddles said:
Judging from the lack of response to your various "global scale"posts, Rick, I think most folks are still far more concerned with their costs of keeping warm, this winter.rick_chasey said:Govt support or price caps don't address the underlying issue which is scarcity of gas.
So if you're not using the market price to signal people to use less, as you're capping the price (or giving equivalent support via other means), how do you make people use less?
Even with a cap of around £2500, the poor are still going to be faced with either keeping the kids warm, or fed. Global shortages aren't going to mean much to the folks who can't afford to use it in the first place.
Not until they can't access the internet or steaming services, at least....
My worry is that this energy crisis is the catalyst for a much wider economic problem across Europe. The sheer amount of GDP that Europe, UK included, is going to spend on energy vs normal is so big it's hard not to see a massive catastrophe.
Even if everyone is bailed out, firms and households, then there's a decent chance we just run out of energy anyway and we're all forced to go without power regardless (if it's a cold winter)
Install a wood burner I guess...
My theory is that whatever you do you won't shave more than 10% off your bill so you may as well look for savings elsewhere (or earn more)"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
I don't know if I'm representative, but I'm definitely less inclined to put myself through any minor discomfort to reduce my energy usage after the announcement. Which is nice for me, but not ideal overall.
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This is my fear. Paying people's standing charges and a few units makes sense, this doesn't.kingstongraham said:I don't know if I'm representative, but I'm definitely less inclined to put myself through any minor discomfort to reduce my energy usage after the announcement. Which is nice for me, but not ideal overall.
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