Energy thread

kingstongraham

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

This thread has taken a strange turn. I guess this means most are now not worried until the gas runs out.

I'm probably more worried about the impact of the government spending £150bn on hot air, but everyone's circumstances are different.

When the Conservatives lose the next election, balancing the books will become a top priority again.

pblakeney

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

TheBigBean said:

pblakeney said:

TheBigBean said:

pblakeney said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

I don't know if I'm representative, but I'm definitely less inclined to put myself through any minor discomfort to reduce my energy usage after the announcement. Which is nice for me, but not ideal overall.

This is my fear. Paying people's standing charges and a few units makes sense, this doesn't.

Are people simply misreading things? The cap is for usual usage. Over use and you will over pay?

This isn't a winter for usual usage.

So if you use less you will pay less.

Perhaps I can point you to KingstonGraham as an example of why it doesn't work that well.

Doesn’t help my understanding of the issue.
Use less, pay less; use more, pay more. The choice is yours.

Not really wanting to speak for KG but my understanding of what he was saying is that now the rate is being capped he is less inclined to suffer the discomfort of having the heating set lower as the cost of turning the thermostat up the extra degree or two is no longer a deterrent. I suspect we all have that cut off point where using energy for improved convenience / comfort gets outweighed by the price we are prepared to pay for that. Much like there will be a cost of petrol at which point people will drive less.

Yes, and he will pay for the privilege. The cap is for “normal” use. If your use is “normal” the you will pay £2500. Use less, pay less; use more, pay more.

Stevo_666

laurentian said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

I don't know if I'm representative, but I'm definitely less inclined to put myself through any minor discomfort to reduce my energy usage after the announcement. Which is nice for me, but not ideal overall.

Makes little difference for us who are on oil fired, as no cap applies. I'll probably be quite diligent about turning lights off when not needed etc, that's my Yorkshire upbringing.

We're on oil too - sure I heard yesterday (or probably Wednesday) that there was some kind of "support" being brought in but didn't catch the details. I suppose the thing with oil is that we've already paid for the coming winter's heating . . .

If you've got anything on that I'd be interested to hear - not seen anything myself. Managed to get a relatively decent price while it was hot but I'll be filling up again before Christmas as we only have a 1,000 litre tank.

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Stevo_666 said:

surrey_commuter said:

pangolin said:

rick_chasey said:

blazing_saddles said:

rick_chasey said:

Govt support or price caps don't address the underlying issue which is scarcity of gas.

So if you're not using the market price to signal people to use less, as you're capping the price (or giving equivalent support via other means), how do you make people use less?

Judging from the lack of response to your various "global scale"posts, Rick, I think most folks are still far more concerned with their costs of keeping warm, this winter.

Even with a cap of around £2500, the poor are still going to be faced with either keeping the kids warm, or fed. Global shortages aren't going to mean much to the folks who can't afford to use it in the first place.
Not until they can't access the internet or steaming services, at least....

Everyone's heating and financial situation is different so there isn't a one-size fits all model and I'm not really here to judge people's individual choices as there's more that goes into it than is worth sharing tbh.

My worry is that this energy crisis is the catalyst for a much wider economic problem across Europe. The sheer amount of GDP that Europe, UK included, is going to spend on energy vs normal is so big it's hard not to see a massive catastrophe.

Even if everyone is bailed out, firms and households, then there's a decent chance we just run out of energy anyway and we're all forced to go without power regardless (if it's a cold winter)

Is there anything an average punter can do about that worry?

Install a wood burner I guess...

you won't get a woodburner before Spring.

My theory is that whatever you do you won't shave more than 10% off your bill so you may as well look for savings elsewhere (or earn more)

I think you're right. Cut down on booze, crushed avocado on toast etc. Shower at work etc.

Have you gone full lefty on us?

I'm just suggesting what lefties and Millennials could do

kingstongraham

pblakeney said:

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

TheBigBean said:

pblakeney said:

TheBigBean said:

pblakeney said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

I don't know if I'm representative, but I'm definitely less inclined to put myself through any minor discomfort to reduce my energy usage after the announcement. Which is nice for me, but not ideal overall.

This is my fear. Paying people's standing charges and a few units makes sense, this doesn't.

Are people simply misreading things? The cap is for usual usage. Over use and you will over pay?

This isn't a winter for usual usage.

So if you use less you will pay less.

Perhaps I can point you to KingstonGraham as an example of why it doesn't work that well.

Doesn’t help my understanding of the issue.
Use less, pay less; use more, pay more. The choice is yours.

Not really wanting to speak for KG but my understanding of what he was saying is that now the rate is being capped he is less inclined to suffer the discomfort of having the heating set lower as the cost of turning the thermostat up the extra degree or two is no longer a deterrent. I suspect we all have that cut off point where using energy for improved convenience / comfort gets outweighed by the price we are prepared to pay for that. Much like there will be a cost of petrol at which point people will drive less.

Yes, and he will pay for the privilege. The cap is for “normal” use. If your use is “normal” the you will pay £2500. Use less, pay less; use more, pay more.

Do you genuinely still not understand what I was saying?

pblakeney

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

TheBigBean said:

pblakeney said:

TheBigBean said:

pblakeney said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

I don't know if I'm representative, but I'm definitely less inclined to put myself through any minor discomfort to reduce my energy usage after the announcement. Which is nice for me, but not ideal overall.

This is my fear. Paying people's standing charges and a few units makes sense, this doesn't.

Are people simply misreading things? The cap is for usual usage. Over use and you will over pay?

This isn't a winter for usual usage.

So if you use less you will pay less.

Perhaps I can point you to KingstonGraham as an example of why it doesn't work that well.

Doesn’t help my understanding of the issue.
Use less, pay less; use more, pay more. The choice is yours.

Not really wanting to speak for KG but my understanding of what he was saying is that now the rate is being capped he is less inclined to suffer the discomfort of having the heating set lower as the cost of turning the thermostat up the extra degree or two is no longer a deterrent. I suspect we all have that cut off point where using energy for improved convenience / comfort gets outweighed by the price we are prepared to pay for that. Much like there will be a cost of petrol at which point people will drive less.

Yes, and he will pay for the privilege. The cap is for “normal” use. If your use is “normal” the you will pay £2500. Use less, pay less; use more, pay more.

Do you genuinely still not understand what I was saying?

The obvious answer is, yes.

kingstongraham

pblakeney said:

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

TheBigBean said:

pblakeney said:

TheBigBean said:

pblakeney said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

I don't know if I'm representative, but I'm definitely less inclined to put myself through any minor discomfort to reduce my energy usage after the announcement. Which is nice for me, but not ideal overall.

This is my fear. Paying people's standing charges and a few units makes sense, this doesn't.

Are people simply misreading things? The cap is for usual usage. Over use and you will over pay?

This isn't a winter for usual usage.

So if you use less you will pay less.

Perhaps I can point you to KingstonGraham as an example of why it doesn't work that well.

Doesn’t help my understanding of the issue.
Use less, pay less; use more, pay more. The choice is yours.

Not really wanting to speak for KG but my understanding of what he was saying is that now the rate is being capped he is less inclined to suffer the discomfort of having the heating set lower as the cost of turning the thermostat up the extra degree or two is no longer a deterrent. I suspect we all have that cut off point where using energy for improved convenience / comfort gets outweighed by the price we are prepared to pay for that. Much like there will be a cost of petrol at which point people will drive less.

Yes, and he will pay for the privilege. The cap is for “normal” use. If your use is “normal” the you will pay £2500. Use less, pay less; use more, pay more.

Do you genuinely still not understand what I was saying?

The obvious answer is, yes.

Yes you don't?

Can tell you've had a good lunch!

pblakeney

Yes, I don’t understand.
Yes, we had a very nice lunch.

Pross

pblakeney said:

Yes, I don’t understand.
Yes, we had a very nice lunch.

Let's take that lunch as an example then. You may have been prepared to spend £100 a head on the meal with wine, if the prices had gone up so it would cost you £200 per head you might have decided that much as you wanted a really special anniversary meal you weren't prepared to pay that much and so economised and went to a cheaper place. You could still have gone to that cheaper place, you could even have gone to Wetherspoons and got a 2 for £5 deal but it wouldn't have been as enjoyable.

That is what KG is saying e.g. £250 per month is what he can reasonably afford to pay, with the previous price rise that was due to come in his bill would have gone to £300 based on his current use so he'd have knocked the thermostat down leaving the house colder than he'd like to reduce consumption. Now he can keep it at his preferred level and stay within his own maximum budget. Yes, he's paying more than he would if he still turned the temperature down but he wouldn't be as comfortable.

briantrumpet

TheBigBean said:

commuterlegs said:

TheBigBean said:

rick_chasey said:

Why would you put yourself through cold showers in winter?

Because the cost of one is beyond my hypothetical budget. As I said, I'm not liking that part of the plan.

Solar shower like they have on the back of camper vans, take the edge off? Still not pleasant i would guess....

In the absence of new tech, I think I would go India style and have a bucket of water. Soap on. Bucket over head. It's over quicker that way.

I think I'd rather go for soap & flannels if I didn't have hot water. I might stink a bit, but it'd be a small price (for other people) to pay.

shirley_basso

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

Yes, I don’t understand.
Yes, we had a very nice lunch.

Let's take that lunch as an example then. You may have been prepared to spend £100 a head on the meal with wine, if the prices had gone up so it would cost you £200 per head you might have decided that much as you wanted a really special anniversary meal you weren't prepared to pay that much and so economised and went to a cheaper place. You could still have gone to that cheaper place, you could even have gone to Wetherspoons and got a 2 for £5 deal but it wouldn't have been as enjoyable.

That is what KG is saying e.g. £250 per month is what he can reasonably afford to pay, with the previous price rise that was due to come in his bill would have gone to £300 based on his current use so he'd have knocked the thermostat down leaving the house colder than he'd like to reduce consumption. Now he can keep it at his preferred level and stay within his own maximum budget. Yes, he's paying more than he would if he still turned the temperature down but he wouldn't be as comfortable.

I think it also runs deeper than that.

There is not just one issue facing the UK this winter, in that people will go cold, it is that if we don't reduce our energy usage, there will be blackouts.

Reducing the price of energy does not drive the sort of behaviours that reduce its usage.

pblakeney

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

Yes, I don’t understand.
Yes, we had a very nice lunch.

Let's take that lunch as an example then. You may have been prepared to spend £100 a head on the meal with wine, if the prices had gone up so it would cost you £200 per head you might have decided that much as you wanted a really special anniversary meal you weren't prepared to pay that much and so economised and went to a cheaper place. You could still have gone to that cheaper place, you could even have gone to Wetherspoons and got a 2 for £5 deal but it wouldn't have been as enjoyable.

That is what KG is saying e.g. £250 per month is what he can reasonably afford to pay, with the previous price rise that was due to come in his bill would have gone to £300 based on his current use so he'd have knocked the thermostat down leaving the house colder than he'd like to reduce consumption. Now he can keep it at his preferred level and stay within his own maximum budget. Yes, he's paying more than he would if he still turned the temperature down but he wouldn't be as comfortable.

Sorry. The point was so blatantly obvious that I didn’t see the need for it to be written down. I thought there must be more to it.

It’s going to be an unpleasant winter. We know.

kingstongraham

pblakeney said:

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

Yes, I don’t understand.
Yes, we had a very nice lunch.

Let's take that lunch as an example then. You may have been prepared to spend £100 a head on the meal with wine, if the prices had gone up so it would cost you £200 per head you might have decided that much as you wanted a really special anniversary meal you weren't prepared to pay that much and so economised and went to a cheaper place. You could still have gone to that cheaper place, you could even have gone to Wetherspoons and got a 2 for £5 deal but it wouldn't have been as enjoyable.

That is what KG is saying e.g. £250 per month is what he can reasonably afford to pay, with the previous price rise that was due to come in his bill would have gone to £300 based on his current use so he'd have knocked the thermostat down leaving the house colder than he'd like to reduce consumption. Now he can keep it at his preferred level and stay within his own maximum budget. Yes, he's paying more than he would if he still turned the temperature down but he wouldn't be as comfortable.

Sorry. The point was so blatantly obvious that I didn’t see the need for it to be written down. I thought there must be more to it.

It’s going to be an unpleasant winter. We know.

I give up.

pangolin

Stevo_666 said:

laurentian said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

I don't know if I'm representative, but I'm definitely less inclined to put myself through any minor discomfort to reduce my energy usage after the announcement. Which is nice for me, but not ideal overall.

Makes little difference for us who are on oil fired, as no cap applies. I'll probably be quite diligent about turning lights off when not needed etc, that's my Yorkshire upbringing.

We're on oil too - sure I heard yesterday (or probably Wednesday) that there was some kind of "support" being brought in but didn't catch the details. I suppose the thing with oil is that we've already paid for the coming winter's heating . . .

If you've got anything on that I'd be interested to hear - not seen anything myself. Managed to get a relatively decent price while it was hot but I'll be filling up again before Christmas as we only have a 1,000 litre tank.

No detail really, just that they are looking into it:

I use heating oil, what about me?
The prime minister said a fund will be created to support those who are not covered by a cap, but she did not say how big that fund would be.

This includes people who use heating oil in their homes, those who have communal heating schemes, and people in mobile home parks who pay the park owner rather than a supplier.

More details will come later, but this will be an extremely complex task.

For example, people in park homes do not yet know how they will receive the £400 discount available to everyone - and that was announced months ago.

The government has not said how big this fund will be or how long it will take to organise.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62833623

pblakeney

kingstongraham said:

pblakeney said:

Pross said:

pblakeney said:

Yes, I don’t understand.
Yes, we had a very nice lunch.

Let's take that lunch as an example then. You may have been prepared to spend £100 a head on the meal with wine, if the prices had gone up so it would cost you £200 per head you might have decided that much as you wanted a really special anniversary meal you weren't prepared to pay that much and so economised and went to a cheaper place. You could still have gone to that cheaper place, you could even have gone to Wetherspoons and got a 2 for £5 deal but it wouldn't have been as enjoyable.

That is what KG is saying e.g. £250 per month is what he can reasonably afford to pay, with the previous price rise that was due to come in his bill would have gone to £300 based on his current use so he'd have knocked the thermostat down leaving the house colder than he'd like to reduce consumption. Now he can keep it at his preferred level and stay within his own maximum budget. Yes, he's paying more than he would if he still turned the temperature down but he wouldn't be as comfortable.

Sorry. The point was so blatantly obvious that I didn’t see the need for it to be written down. I thought there must be more to it.

It’s going to be an unpleasant winter. We know.

I give up.

If that was your point then it’s for the best.
If that wasn’t your point, what was your point?
Although, I’m quite happy to give up too.

rick_chasey

Heating oil prices don't look *too* bad.

First.Aspect

rick_chasey said:

Heating oil prices don't look *too* bad.

You see, you should have moved to the countryside RC.

briantrumpet

When I replaced my empty butane canister in France a couple of weeks ago (I use it for cooking only), the price was up about 20% from two years ago. Was quite surprised it wasn't more.

Anyone here heat with bottled gas?

Stevo_666

pangolin said:

Stevo_666 said:

laurentian said:

Stevo_666 said:

kingstongraham said:

I don't know if I'm representative, but I'm definitely less inclined to put myself through any minor discomfort to reduce my energy usage after the announcement. Which is nice for me, but not ideal overall.

Makes little difference for us who are on oil fired, as no cap applies. I'll probably be quite diligent about turning lights off when not needed etc, that's my Yorkshire upbringing.

We're on oil too - sure I heard yesterday (or probably Wednesday) that there was some kind of "support" being brought in but didn't catch the details. I suppose the thing with oil is that we've already paid for the coming winter's heating . . .

If you've got anything on that I'd be interested to hear - not seen anything myself. Managed to get a relatively decent price while it was hot but I'll be filling up again before Christmas as we only have a 1,000 litre tank.

No detail really, just that they are looking into it:

I use heating oil, what about me?
The prime minister said a fund will be created to support those who are not covered by a cap, but she did not say how big that fund would be.

This includes people who use heating oil in their homes, those who have communal heating schemes, and people in mobile home parks who pay the park owner rather than a supplier.

More details will come later, but this will be an extremely complex task.

For example, people in park homes do not yet know how they will receive the £400 discount available to everyone - and that was announced months ago.

The government has not said how big this fund will be or how long it will take to organise.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-62833623

Ta for that. Will just have to wait and see. Can't look a gift horse in the mouth, although as Kerosene prices are more linked to aviation demand, hopefully they won't go through the roof any time soon.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

Heating oil prices don't look *too* bad.

Creeping up a bit now but still OK. I think some people are comparing prices to lockdown time when there was very little demand from the aviation (went below 25p/l at one point in 2020).

Pross

rick_chasey said:

Heating oil prices don't look *too* bad.

I was tentatively interested in a house for sale in rural West Wales (other than the other half of the semi-detached there were no other houses within half a mile) and it was the first time I haven't been automatically put off by seeing oil heating and no mains gas even though there was a suggestion the tank needed replacing. Unfortunately the lack of mains drainage, suggestion of some damp and possibility of Japanese knotweed on the border of the property put me off instead.

JimD666

briantrumpet said:

When I replaced my empty butane canister in France a couple of weeks ago (I use it for cooking only), the price was up about 20% from two years ago. Was quite surprised it wasn't more.

Anyone here heat with bottled gas?

Most of the far SW of Cornwall who use gas do. No mains gas this far down 47kg bottles of Propane is the usual. Unless they have enough room in the garden (or access) for a proper tank.

webboo

Here in my East Yorkshire village it’s either oil or bottled gas. We have oil but had bottled gas in a previous house, big tank in the garden. Generally we would run out just when there was a cold snap.

orraloon

briantrumpet said:

When I replaced my empty butane canister in France a couple of weeks ago (I use it for cooking only), the price was up about 20% from two years ago. Was quite surprised it wasn't more.

Anyone here heat with bottled gas?

Had a quick look at my records for Calor 13kg propane canister - weed burner - May 2017 was £32, June 2022 was £45.

briantrumpet

orraloon said:

briantrumpet said:

When I replaced my empty butane canister in France a couple of weeks ago (I use it for cooking only), the price was up about 20% from two years ago. Was quite surprised it wasn't more.

Anyone here heat with bottled gas?

Had a quick look at my records for Calor 13kg propane canister - weed burner - May 2017 was £32, June 2022 was £45.

Wonder whether UK prices have jumped more then - my 13kg butane was about £33 last week. Haven't bought wood for three years, so don't know if his prices have gone up since... was £50 for a cubic metre.

orraloon

Firewood prices will be higher. Took some in today, £70 per cubic metre delivered cut and split, was £65 when I first started looking for local suppliers some weeks back. Dry, ready to use, 15-16% moisture content

Stevo_666

rick_chasey

🤦🏻‍♂️

Jezyboy

It gives me great joy to note that I was correct about what Truss's answer would be.

rick_chasey

It is mad when climate change is the existential threat that the solution is not to replace fossil fuel dependence (which would avoid the crisis anyway) but to dig more out.

Shows a remarkable level of stupidity.

You’ve got to be monumentally thick to think it’s a sensible solution to “drill all available fossil fuels”

Climate change is already the single biggest cause of refugees in the world.