Energy thread
Comments
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No need to be a patronising **** just because I've caught you out bullsh1ttingrick_chasey said:
Well yes, I'd already read similar earlier in the year about the UK approach vs others.Stevo_666 said:
Cleverly caveated so you can try to deny another UK bashing post when challenged. What are your thoughts on the article that Pangolin linked above?rick_chasey said:
What I actually wrote is "there is some soul searching as they may have backed the wrong horse"Stevo_666 said:
Ricks claim was that the UK has 'backed the wrong horse' - I posted an article that contradicted that, as did you. I was not looking at the timeline, which appeared to be your main point. So as I say, I don't think we are disagreeing overall.pangolin said:
Then why post a column, sorry, "evidence" saying we could expect it in a decade?Stevo_666 said:
Read the link.pangolin said:
Sorry, what evidence?Stevo_666 said:
I think you will find that the situation is more complex than your simple statement above - I am simply providing some evidence as to why that is the case.rick_chasey said:
Forgive me but the rule of opinion columns being unable to refute anything stands true here.Stevo_666 said:
This may disappoint you:rick_chasey said:Reading about the fusion breakthrough and it's the approach that Britain *hasn't* backed.
Apparently it's causing some soul searching in the UK effort - may have backed the wrong horse.
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/12/13/fusion-energy-has-come-age-uk-rather-good/
Have a read and see what you think, it just may not fit in with your predetermined view.
I'm not disputing that commercial fusion is still a long way off. Although your article does rather handily explain that "US scientists admit that British technology is likely to be commercialised far sooner" which backs up my point to Rick above.pangolin said:Rather than an opinion column from their economics editor, here is an actual article from their science editor:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/12/13/nuclear-fusion-breakthrough-us-power-plant-decades-away-british/
Which is appropriately caveated.
The reason I posted is the development is a caveat to that previous narrative, hence the interest.
Well done for catching up on the topic. Have a lolly.
"I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
As I understand it the recent results are encouraging in that the output was greater than the input but it is still a long way from being commercially viable. But given the amount of interest and investment the odds may be shortening, even if it doesn't make much difference in our lifetimes.sungod said:
most of the reporting in the popular press is pure garbageStevo_666 said:
Read the link.pangolin said:
Sorry, what evidence?Stevo_666 said:
I think you will find that the situation is more complex than your simple statement above - I am simply providing some evidence as to why that is the case.rick_chasey said:
Forgive me but the rule of opinion columns being unable to refute anything stands true here.Stevo_666 said:
This may disappoint you:rick_chasey said:Reading about the fusion breakthrough and it's the approach that Britain *hasn't* backed.
Apparently it's causing some soul searching in the UK effort - may have backed the wrong horse.
https://telegraph.co.uk/business/2022/12/13/fusion-energy-has-come-age-uk-rather-good/
Have a read and see what you think, it just may not fit in with your predetermined view.
I'm not disputing that commercial fusion is still a long way off. Although your article does rather handily explain that "US scientists admit that British technology is likely to be commercialised far sooner" which backs up my point to Rick above.pangolin said:Rather than an opinion column from their economics editor, here is an actual article from their science editor:
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2022/12/13/nuclear-fusion-breakthrough-us-power-plant-decades-away-british/
the results from the usa are being widely misreported/misunderstood
the usa/british comparison is nonsensical, the national ignition facility really exists for research and fusion weaponry, i.e. h-bombs, helps avoid the need for the usa to detonate weapons for testing, it's not about making power plants
the c. 1.5 gain is only counting the energy delivered to the target, c. 2 megajoules, which resulted in c. 3 megajoules out
however to create the input energy required over 320 megajoules, i.e. the output energy was actually less than 1% of the input, that's a space heater, not a power plant
it's a really great result for applied physics and weapons research, but has little relevance for commercial power generation
the old jet magnetic confinement experiment blows this away, but is not able to reach overall >1 gain
jet will be effectively superseded by iter, which is designed to achieve real gain, albeit still in a research environment, not as a practical power plant
but drawing from the decades of research and experience on these and other projects, there are start-ups working on various technologies, they are focused on making big money from developing practical commercial power plant designs, i wouldn't be surprised if this is where we get real progress, odds are still long, but the gamble is attracting serious investment
The benefits are clear if/when they can get it to be viable."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
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For the curious out there for the past year. Electricity - £585.86. Gas - £392.31. Not bad for 100% wfh in a warm house. Heating is currently on 24 hours for the cold spell.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Thread on how British energy demands have not changed this winter, compared to continental Europe.
Lots of interesting charts etc but I know you’ll just start arguing about the measuring of the demand.0 -
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It's interesting, but I'm not sure I agree that the 12% drop in consumption can be disregarded just because it was a warm autumn. If people already have their heating switched off, what further savings can they make? Is it the case that, say, German consumption was much higher to start with, giving more scope for savings.rick_chasey said:Thread on how British energy demands have not changed this winter, compared to continental Europe.
Lots of interesting charts etc but I know you’ll just start arguing about the measuring of the demand.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
assuming that this is household gas demand (as per the headline in the picture) then how on earth did the Germans reduce demand by 20-30% in the summer?rick_chasey said:Thread on how British energy demands have not changed this winter, compared to continental Europe.
Lots of interesting charts etc but I know you’ll just start arguing about the measuring of the demand.0 -
Reduce A/C?surrey_commuter said:
assuming that this is household gas demand (as per the headline in the picture) then how on earth did the Germans reduce demand by 20-30% in the summer?rick_chasey said:Thread on how British energy demands have not changed this winter, compared to continental Europe.
Lots of interesting charts etc but I know you’ll just start arguing about the measuring of the demand.
Just a guess.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
would they have that much and wouldn't it run on electricity?pblakeney said:
Reduce A/C?surrey_commuter said:
assuming that this is household gas demand (as per the headline in the picture) then how on earth did the Germans reduce demand by 20-30% in the summer?rick_chasey said:Thread on how British energy demands have not changed this winter, compared to continental Europe.
Lots of interesting charts etc but I know you’ll just start arguing about the measuring of the demand.
Just a guess.0 -
Ah. Fair point. It was just a stupid guess. 😉surrey_commuter said:
would they have that much and wouldn't it run on electricity?pblakeney said:
Reduce A/C?surrey_commuter said:
assuming that this is household gas demand (as per the headline in the picture) then how on earth did the Germans reduce demand by 20-30% in the summer?rick_chasey said:Thread on how British energy demands have not changed this winter, compared to continental Europe.
Lots of interesting charts etc but I know you’ll just start arguing about the measuring of the demand.
Just a guess.
Next stupid guess - Heated hot tubs and/or pools?The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Cook the bratwurst over coals.0
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Notwithstanding the above,the proportion of people who have no idea how a thermostat works is quite high, so asking people to modify their behaviour is going to be tricky. The really big bills have only started landing in the last month or so, so unless you were already struggling, there wasn't much of a financial incentive.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
I'd say it was relatively mild until last week. Usage that went up dramatically this past week will not appear in bills until next payment. Along with Xmas credit cards etc. Grim.rjsterry said:Notwithstanding the above,the proportion of people who have no idea how a thermostat works is quite high, so asking people to modify their behaviour is going to be tricky. The really big bills have only started landing in the last month or so, so unless you were already struggling, there wasn't much of a financial incentive.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Don't know whether this was household gas demand that was responsible but I did hear or read that the German govt had initiated a country wide policy of reducing energy use in public places and certain infrastructure (although not gas, street lighting was something that I believe they reduced considerably)surrey_commuter said:
assuming that this is household gas demand (as per the headline in the picture) then how on earth did the Germans reduce demand by 20-30% in the summer?rick_chasey said:Thread on how British energy demands have not changed this winter, compared to continental Europe.
Lots of interesting charts etc but I know you’ll just start arguing about the measuring of the demand.Wilier Izoard XP0 -
Despite the massive cost increases outside of the capped residential rates I've done choir concerts over the past couple of months in schools where the heating has been so high I thought I might pass out. The first one was on an evening back in October when it was still unseasonably mild albeit very wet, I was sat in front of a radiator between our slots and it was unbearable. That was an old school hall where I suspect the heating is either on or off. On Saturday I did a concert in a modern school and again the hall was overheated to the point where I was sweating. It is the same in the church hall where we rehearse, more bearable in there but still warmer than it needs to be and they appear to leave the heating on even when it isn't being used. The schools in particular seem to be odd considering kids are less likely to feel the cold and the budget issues they have.0
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It's overall gas consumption, not just domestic. Think about things like public swimming pools.laurentian said:
Don't know whether this was household gas demand that was responsible but I did hear or read that the German govt had initiated a country wide policy of reducing energy use in public places and certain infrastructure (although not gas, street lighting was something that I believe they reduced considerably)surrey_commuter said:
assuming that this is household gas demand (as per the headline in the picture) then how on earth did the Germans reduce demand by 20-30% in the summer?rick_chasey said:Thread on how British energy demands have not changed this winter, compared to continental Europe.
Lots of interesting charts etc but I know you’ll just start arguing about the measuring of the demand.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition1 -
Out village which is a modern building is unbearably hot which means the doors get wedged open when there is anyone using it. When I raised this with the guy in charge, he said they get more money in grants if they leave the heating on all the time.Pross said:Despite the massive cost increases outside of the capped residential rates I've done choir concerts over the past couple of months in schools where the heating has been so high I thought I might pass out. The first one was on an evening back in October when it was still unseasonably mild albeit very wet, I was sat in front of a radiator between our slots and it was unbearable. That was an old school hall where I suspect the heating is either on or off. On Saturday I did a concert in a modern school and again the hall was overheated to the point where I was sweating. It is the same in the church hall where we rehearse, more bearable in there but still warmer than it needs to be and they appear to leave the heating on even when it isn't being used. The schools in particular seem to be odd considering kids are less likely to feel the cold and the budget issues they have.
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At least now we're living with Covid we don't seem to be having all the doors and windows open for ventilation in school like last winter. A lot of the radiators seem to have TRVs fitted but people who don't understand them leave them set to MAX. Whenever I find myself in a classroom / office / workshop which feels like a kiln I go round and turn them down to something more tolerable.
Next time I'm in there, guess what? Back to gas mark 5
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does it exclude electricity generation?rjsterry said:
It's overall gas consumption, not just domestic. Think about things like public swimming pools.laurentian said:
Don't know whether this was household gas demand that was responsible but I did hear or read that the German govt had initiated a country wide policy of reducing energy use in public places and certain infrastructure (although not gas, street lighting was something that I believe they reduced considerably)surrey_commuter said:
assuming that this is household gas demand (as per the headline in the picture) then how on earth did the Germans reduce demand by 20-30% in the summer?rick_chasey said:Thread on how British energy demands have not changed this winter, compared to continental Europe.
Lots of interesting charts etc but I know you’ll just start arguing about the measuring of the demand.0 -
This is a large part of the problem: lack of properly functioning controls. If an entire school is run off one badly set up central programmer it's no wonder people open doors and windows. Previously it didn't really matter.webboo said:
Out village which is a modern building is unbearably hot which means the doors get wedged open when there is anyone using it. When I raised this with the guy in charge, he said they get more money in grants if they leave the heating on all the time.Pross said:Despite the massive cost increases outside of the capped residential rates I've done choir concerts over the past couple of months in schools where the heating has been so high I thought I might pass out. The first one was on an evening back in October when it was still unseasonably mild albeit very wet, I was sat in front of a radiator between our slots and it was unbearable. That was an old school hall where I suspect the heating is either on or off. On Saturday I did a concert in a modern school and again the hall was overheated to the point where I was sweating. It is the same in the church hall where we rehearse, more bearable in there but still warmer than it needs to be and they appear to leave the heating on even when it isn't being used. The schools in particular seem to be odd considering kids are less likely to feel the cold and the budget issues they have.
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
You could always read it. 😉surrey_commuter said:
does it exclude electricity generation?rjsterry said:
It's overall gas consumption, not just domestic. Think about things like public swimming pools.laurentian said:
Don't know whether this was household gas demand that was responsible but I did hear or read that the German govt had initiated a country wide policy of reducing energy use in public places and certain infrastructure (although not gas, street lighting was something that I believe they reduced considerably)surrey_commuter said:
assuming that this is household gas demand (as per the headline in the picture) then how on earth did the Germans reduce demand by 20-30% in the summer?rick_chasey said:Thread on how British energy demands have not changed this winter, compared to continental Europe.
Lots of interesting charts etc but I know you’ll just start arguing about the measuring of the demand.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
now that was a top tip.rjsterry said:
You could always read it. 😉surrey_commuter said:
does it exclude electricity generation?rjsterry said:
It's overall gas consumption, not just domestic. Think about things like public swimming pools.laurentian said:
Don't know whether this was household gas demand that was responsible but I did hear or read that the German govt had initiated a country wide policy of reducing energy use in public places and certain infrastructure (although not gas, street lighting was something that I believe they reduced considerably)surrey_commuter said:
assuming that this is household gas demand (as per the headline in the picture) then how on earth did the Germans reduce demand by 20-30% in the summer?rick_chasey said:Thread on how British energy demands have not changed this winter, compared to continental Europe.
Lots of interesting charts etc but I know you’ll just start arguing about the measuring of the demand.
The answer is that includes non-domestic which is a far higher % in non-UK so is likely to be the main difference0 -
I had a (60 mile round trip) meeting in bank branch today, paperwork to do signatory changes on the local cycling group account. We 3 all layered up as sub zero; inside the branch it was really warm. Quote from bank staff: "we don't pay the electricity bill so..."0
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pblakeney said:
For the curious out there for the past year. Electricity - £585.86. Gas - £392.31. Not bad for 100% wfh in a warm house. Heating is currently on 24 hours for the cold spell.
That's good going. I suspect that if I resurrected my gas fire I'd reduce my bill, but I'll admit that my house isn't exactly warm now. One upside of this cold snap is that when the weather gets just a few degrees warmer, my house will feel like a greenhouse, having got used to it being a like a refrigerator.1 -
That's my approach. After running the heating for 24h, I got it to 17 degrees.
I called a Fireplace installer who said they could come in April. Useless!0
