Should Chris Froome swallow his pride and retire?

DeVlaeminck

joeyhalloran said:

ugo.santalucia said:

It's massive improvement and it's great he can be there... but let's not forget he has a multi million pound contract, quite a rare thing in cycling, so surely there are expectations beyond a third place in a stage? The question is how high can he go? At that level of pay, either you are a top GC contender or you can win the monuments...

I think you have completely missed how pro cycling works. Can you tell me who came 3rd on any other stage off the top of your head? Chris Froome gets cameras on him even getting dropped, let alone coming 3rd. He is paid to advertise for his sponsors, and because of his former level, he gets that regardless of the results.

Exactly - and he can have a future as a stage hunter if he can ride like he did yesterday and hopefully add a little bit. That is what will get him on TV and that is what will milk the name Chris Froome for as much value as possible.

Thinking he's going to be a GC rider though is wishful thinking on any form he's shown so far - he's nowhere near. He'll be anonymous and the only time we'd see him is when he slips out the back of the GC group - that might be a km further up the mountain than now but it's still pointless.

DeVlaeminck

andyp said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Exactly - a guy who is 13th after being allowed in a break - who you are googling to find a top 10 in the Tour - beat Froome at his current best. That does not suggest Froome is going to get back to being a GC rider.

Tosh. Meintjes looked like a decent GC prospect when he was young, but then had injury issues that stalled his development. He was riding really well at the Vuelta last year until he crashed out.

In 8 years in stage races he's had a 6th in the Basque Country and a 6th in the Dauphine - there are an awful lot of riders who have shown more than that.

RichN95.

DeVlaeminck said:

In 8 years in stage races he's had a 6th in the Basque Country and a 6th in the Dauphine - there are an awful lot of riders who have shown more than that.

But he's still riding for GC. Which means he is trying to do the best time he can every day. No having days off, or deliberately losing time. He's had two bad days - stage 11 and the cobbles. That's what riding for GC is. Riding every day with the aim of minimising time loss (or perhaps gaining in a break). It's not limited to racing for the podium.

DeVlaeminck

I wouldn't call a guy 13th after gaining time in a break a GC rider - he's someone who happens to have ended up there - ultimately someone has to be 13th. If that's what you think Froome should aim for fair enough - I don't.

For me his future should be as a stage hunter, maybe try for king of the mountains - a Barguil type who get far more publicity.

ugo.santalucia

According to the Internet, his salary is higher than WvA and MvdP combined... I know whom I would rather pay that money. He doesn't get anywhere near the air time of the two combined.

No_Ta_Doctor

I don't think anyone is expecting a Tour gc shot from him. At best a Vuelta top 5 if he carries on making progress

bobmcstuff

ugo.santalucia said:

According to the Internet, his salary is higher than WvA and MvdP combined... I know whom I would rather pay that money. He doesn't get anywhere near the air time of the two combined.

"According to the internet" doing a lot of heavy lifting there...

Lanterne_Rogue

No_Ta_Doctor said:

I don't think anyone is expecting a Tour gc shot from him. At best a Vuelta top 5 if he carries on making progress

I think this is the thing. Is he ever going to be the GC monster he was again? No.

Is he perfectly capable of picking up a few results and - maybe - being useful as an experienced rider sharing some of their knowledge (I get the impression he's a bit more open with teammates than the media)? Yeah, sure.

blazing_saddles

DeVlaeminck said:

I wouldn't call a guy 13th after gaining time in a break a GC rider - he's someone who happens to have ended up there - ultimately someone has to be 13th. If that's what you think Froome should aim for fair enough - I don't.

For me his future should be as a stage hunter, maybe try for king of the mountains - a Barguil type who get far more publicity.

Again, Tosh.

Guillaume Martin has made a GC career of gaining time in breaks.

DeVlaeminck

So what are you saying - you think Froome should try and emulate Guillaume Martin ?

When he left Ineos it was largely because he thought he was worth a leadership role and Brailsford disagreed. He isn't being paid €5m a year to try and be Guillaume Martin. Clearly the transfer hasn't worked - he hasn't got back to the level he or his team hoped for so he needs a new role.

You think Guillaume Martin would be someone to try and emulate ?

Pross

When he made his transfer I think it's fair to say most on here felt he'd done well to get such a good deal and wondered what ISN were doing but I suspect they knew they'd still get more coverage than they would for any other rider available to them. If they'd spent the same on a genuine top 10 GC contenders it would no doubt have also come with a list of well paid support riders they would have had to bring in.

How many riders in this Tour have had more TV coverage without really having to do much? Froome has been far more visible on TV than the likes of Mad or Quintana.

RichN95.

blazing_saddles said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I wouldn't call a guy 13th after gaining time in a break a GC rider - he's someone who happens to have ended up there - ultimately someone has to be 13th. If that's what you think Froome should aim for fair enough - I don't.

For me his future should be as a stage hunter, maybe try for king of the mountains - a Barguil type who get far more publicity.

Again, Tosh.

Guillaume Martin has made a GC career of gaining time in breaks.

Exactly. Last year Ben O'Connor came fourth after gaining six minutes in a break. I think DeVlaeminck has a fundamental misunderstanding of what a being a GC rider entails for most GC riders.

ugo.santalucia

Pross said:

When he made his transfer I think it's fair to say most on here felt he'd done well to get such a good deal and wondered what ISN were doing but I suspect they knew they'd still get more coverage than they would for any other rider available to them. If they'd spent the same on a genuine top 10 GC contenders it would no doubt have also come with a list of well paid support riders they would have had to bring in.

How many riders in this Tour have had more TV coverage without really having to do much? Froome has been far more visible on TV than the likes of Mad or Quintana.

But what coverage? We have seen a couple of hours of his face in 2 weeks... we have never seen him before in any race that is actually televised. Once he gets up to a decent enough level, the press won't pay any attention to Froome finishing 3rd in a breakaway... this was a bit of a one off because he had been quiet for so long. Banking on air time is a waste of money, the press and the attention is after the winners, they don't care much for the Gilberts, the Nibalis the Valverdes or the Froomes, unless they are the winners.

DeVlaeminck

RichN95. said:

blazing_saddles said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I wouldn't call a guy 13th after gaining time in a break a GC rider - he's someone who happens to have ended up there - ultimately someone has to be 13th. If that's what you think Froome should aim for fair enough - I don't.

For me his future should be as a stage hunter, maybe try for king of the mountains - a Barguil type who get far more publicity.

Again, Tosh.

Guillaume Martin has made a GC career of gaining time in breaks.

Exactly. Last year Ben O'Connor came fourth after gaining six minutes in a break. I think DeVlaeminck has a fundamental misunderstanding of what a being a GC rider entails for most GC riders.

A freak event does not define what a GC rider is. A typical GC rider looks to hang on to the lead group as long as possible and if they feel capable attack.

Yes it is possible to get in a break and jump up the GC - we've even seen the Tour win like that - but it's not really something you can plan in advance as for every rider that it works for far more will end up shipping a lot of time when they get reeled in.

This is why far stronger riders than Froome currently is - Pinot, Barguil, even Martin - frequently decide to target stages and mountains jerseys. They get far more publicity and a chance to actually win.

Pross - I'd have said Quintana is far more visible in this race than Froome - the only time we've seen Froome in several years is the Alpe break - that's why I say that should be his future.

RichN95.

DeVlaeminck said:

A freak event does not define what a GC rider is. A typical GC rider looks to hang on to the lead group as long as possible and if they feel capable attack.

Yes it is possible to get in a break and jump up the GC - we've even seen the Tour win like that - but it's not really something you can plan in advance as for every rider that it works for far more will end up shipping a lot of time when they get reeled in.

It's not a freak event. It happens several times every year. Last year O'Connor, Martin and Gaudu all regained big time in breakaways.

ugo.santalucia

Speaking of accidental GC riders... is Pereiro's win the daddy's of them all?

DeVlaeminck

ugo.santalucia said:

Speaking of accidental GC riders... is Pereiro's win the daddy's of them all?

Yes that's the one I was referring to.

DeVlaeminck

RichN95. said:

DeVlaeminck said:

A freak event does not define what a GC rider is. A typical GC rider looks to hang on to the lead group as long as possible and if they feel capable attack.

Yes it is possible to get in a break and jump up the GC - we've even seen the Tour win like that - but it's not really something you can plan in advance as for every rider that it works for far more will end up shipping a lot of time when they get reeled in.

It's not a freak event. It happens several times every year. Last year O'Connor, Martin and Gaudu all regained big time in breakaways.

So when you said Froome should ride for GC at the Vuelta you meant he should lose loads of time then get in a break and hope he can jump into the top 10?

And that for you would be more sensible than hunting stages ? Just checking.

ugo.santalucia

DeVlaeminck said:

ugo.santalucia said:

Speaking of accidental GC riders... is Pereiro's win the daddy's of them all?

Yes that's the one I was referring to.

Technically, someone will object that yes, he was indeed a GC rider, as he finished 10th at the Tour before, but he was someone who never stood a chance to win the Tour, had it not been for a lucky breakaway and a vial of bad urine (or was it blood?)

blazing_saddles

DeVlaeminck said:

RichN95. said:

blazing_saddles said:

DeVlaeminck said:

I wouldn't call a guy 13th after gaining time in a break a GC rider - he's someone who happens to have ended up there - ultimately someone has to be 13th. If that's what you think Froome should aim for fair enough - I don't.

For me his future should be as a stage hunter, maybe try for king of the mountains - a Barguil type who get far more publicity.

Again, Tosh.

Guillaume Martin has made a GC career of gaining time in breaks.

Exactly. Last year Ben O'Connor came fourth after gaining six minutes in a break. I think DeVlaeminck has a fundamental misunderstanding of what a being a GC rider entails for most GC riders.

A freak event does not define what a GC rider is. A typical GC rider looks to hang on to the lead group as long as possible and if they feel capable attack.

Yes it is possible to get in a break and jump up the GC - we've even seen the Tour win like that - but it's not really something you can plan in advance as for every rider that it works for far more will end up shipping a lot of time when they get reeled in.

This is why far stronger riders than Froome currently is - Pinot, Barguil, even Martin - frequently decide to target stages and mountains jerseys. They get far more publicity and a chance to actually win.

Pross - I'd have said Quintana is far more visible in this race than Froome - the only time we've seen Froome in several years is the Alpe break - that's why I say that should be his future.

There have been a heck of a lot of freak events in that case.
In the 2010 Giro alone, there were two recognised GC riders who got into a break. David Arroyo finished in the Giro top 10, 3 times and was the runner up, that year.
Richie Porte finished 7th, or perhaps you don't consider Porte a GC rider?
Most memorable of all: Óscar Pereiro, who three times finished in the Tour GC top 10, won the title from a break.

Hanging on to the GC group may be typical, but it doesn't mean aiming for the breakaway isn't a legitimate tactic.
I expect we will see at least one GC rider who lost time earlier in this Tour, perhaps through picking up a knock, to try to get some time back, either today, or in the Pyrenees.

RichN95.

DeVlaeminck said:

So when you said Froome should ride for GC at the Vuelta you meant he should lose loads of time then get in a break and hope he can jump into the top 10?

And that for you would be more sensible than hunting stages ? Just checking.

No what happens for a GC rider is that they try every day to stay with the GC group, using their teammates to make sure they are positioned well. And if they don't they try to minimise their losses. Inevitably some will lose time, and if they lose enough time that they are not a threat to the leader then they can look to get in suitable breaks to improve their GC position. This in turn does not exclude trying to win those stages. This is really simple stuff.

bobmcstuff

ugo.santalucia said:

Pross said:

When he made his transfer I think it's fair to say most on here felt he'd done well to get such a good deal and wondered what ISN were doing but I suspect they knew they'd still get more coverage than they would for any other rider available to them. If they'd spent the same on a genuine top 10 GC contenders it would no doubt have also come with a list of well paid support riders they would have had to bring in.

How many riders in this Tour have had more TV coverage without really having to do much? Froome has been far more visible on TV than the likes of Mad or Quintana.

But what coverage? We have seen a couple of hours of his face in 2 weeks... we have never seen him before in any race that is actually televised. Once he gets up to a decent enough level, the press won't pay any attention to Froome finishing 3rd in a breakaway... this was a bit of a one off because he had been quiet for so long. Banking on air time is a waste of money, the press and the attention is after the winners, they don't care much for the Gilberts, the Nibalis the Valverdes or the Froomes, unless they are the winners.

Based on this thread and the other coverage I've seen, Froomes 3rd o the Alpe has generated a lot more discussion than anything Quintana has done this race!

I mean look at it the other way, what other rider could ISN have brought who would have generated that much.

bobmcstuff

I don't think there's any point in Froome muddling round for a potential GC top 10, and I don't think he will be able to win a GT again. Surely he is better off trying to win a stage.

ugo.santalucia

bobmcstuff said:

ugo.santalucia said:

Pross said:

When he made his transfer I think it's fair to say most on here felt he'd done well to get such a good deal and wondered what ISN were doing but I suspect they knew they'd still get more coverage than they would for any other rider available to them. If they'd spent the same on a genuine top 10 GC contenders it would no doubt have also come with a list of well paid support riders they would have had to bring in.

How many riders in this Tour have had more TV coverage without really having to do much? Froome has been far more visible on TV than the likes of Mad or Quintana.

But what coverage? We have seen a couple of hours of his face in 2 weeks... we have never seen him before in any race that is actually televised. Once he gets up to a decent enough level, the press won't pay any attention to Froome finishing 3rd in a breakaway... this was a bit of a one off because he had been quiet for so long. Banking on air time is a waste of money, the press and the attention is after the winners, they don't care much for the Gilberts, the Nibalis the Valverdes or the Froomes, unless they are the winners.

Based on this thread and the other coverage I've seen, Froomes 3rd o the Alpe has generated a lot more discussion than anything Quintana has done this race!

I mean look at it the other way, what other rider could ISN have brought who would have generated that much.

With 6 millions they could have easily got WvA and/or Pogacar... I would say either of them would bring in more revenue than Froome by quite some margin. Failing that, Vingegaard and Roglic, MVdP, Alaphilippe...

The other bizarre thing is that I read Froome's contract extends to 2026, by then he will be 41... he is already at the tail end of his career now, I can't think of another 4 years of him to be honest

vincesummerskRoxcBTr

Interesting to see the chat has moved from 'is Froome finished?' to what he should now aim to win.

DeVlaeminck

bobmcstuff said:

I don't think there's any point in Froome muddling round for a potential GC top 10, and I don't think he will be able to win a GT again. Surely he is better off trying to win a stage.

The voice of reason.

DeVlaeminck

RichN95. said:

DeVlaeminck said:

So when you said Froome should ride for GC at the Vuelta you meant he should lose loads of time then get in a break and hope he can jump into the top 10?

And that for you would be more sensible than hunting stages ? Just checking.

No what happens for a GC rider is that they try every day to stay with the GC group, using their teammates to make sure they are positioned well. And if they don't they try to minimise their losses. Inevitably some will lose time, and if they lose enough time that they are not a threat to the leader then they can look to get in suitable breaks to improve their GC position. This in turn does not exclude trying to win those stages. This is really simple stuff.

But Froome will almost inevitably lose time because he's done nothing to suggest otherwise. So your suggestion is spend the first few mountain stages losing time and then try and get in breaks with the hope of finishing around 10th.

Makes marginally less sense than your assertion the other day that Pogacar's dominance was boring.

Here's Lance Armstrong's take on what Froome's day in the break means for his career.
https://www.stickybottle.com/races-results/armstrong-says-tour-breakaway-ride-will-send-froome-into-retirement/

ugo.santalucia

Armstrong was a lot more arrogant and maybe Froome thinks more along the lines of Andy Murray… it’s nice to be there, rather than watching the race from the sofa… that said, Armstrong is right in that he will struggle to transition to a different kind of rider at the age of 37 and will always find someone younger and with more fire.

RichN95.

DeVlaeminck said:

But Froome will almost inevitably lose time because he's done nothing to suggest otherwise. So your suggestion is spend the first few mountain stages losing time and then try and get in breaks with the hope of finishing around 10th.

I don't suggest riders riding for a GC position lose time deliberately

Let's get back to your initial point

DeVlaeminck said:

Yes but he's finished third in a break - that is the high point of his season - it's a good result but Meintjes finishes ahead of him - nobody is suggesting Meintjes takes a pop at GC.

He's in the breakaway again today. If it gets six minutes - quite possible - he will be in the top 10. This is despite, according to you, nobody is suggesting he rides for a GC position and getting in breaks cannot be part of a GC rider's strategy. If he can do it why not someone else?

andyp

I love that this contract, which no-one has seen except the parties who it applies to, is now worth £6 million. By the end of the year it'll be £10 million and Froome will have had to do the bare minimum to get it.