Should Chris Froome swallow his pride and retire?

davidof

Looks like the endgame

blazing_saddles

Israel Wind Down Nation awaits though.

pblakeney

I would say that I bet he is glad he signed the contract before the racing started.

andyp

FWIW, Froome doesn't strike me as someone who's going to ride around at the back of races pocketing a GT winner's salary. If he's not good enough to challenge for a GT win, he'll quit.

Clearly his injuries were very severe, but I don't think he's really had a chance to get the races in to get back to his best this truncated season. Since he's been established he's always taken time to build his form and he's only had intermittent racing this season. There's a lot of racing left in this Vuelta and I think he'll improve as the race goes on and show more of what he's capable of.

Whether he'll get back to his very best I don't know, but I do know that his commitment and self belief aren't to be underestimated.

DeVlaeminck

Still a chance he'll come back to be a challenger - if he isn't looking right after Winter though you'd guess he's done.

andyp

I'd like to add that the propensity for tall poppy syndrome on this forum is one of its least appealing aspects.

Lanterne_Rogue

andyp said:

I'd like to add that the propensity for tall poppy syndrome on this forum is one of its least appealing aspects.

Should retirement threads swallow their pride and retire?

DeVlaeminck

andyp said:

I'd like to add that the propensity for tall poppy syndrome on this forum is one of its least appealing aspects.

Don't really agree - the most notable current rider under discussion , Cav, has had how long doing naff all and there's still a debate about whether he's worth another year.

Pross

andyp said:

I'd like to add that the propensity for tall poppy syndrome on this forum is one of its least appealing aspects.

Maybe in some cases but I don't think it applies here or in Cav's case. No-one is disparaging their achievements, it would be mad to do so with what are two of the most high achieving cyclists of modern times. There's a big difference between questioning whether a rider can get back to their former level and questioning their achievements.

I think most on here for the past couple of years have been of the opinion that Cav should get another chance in the hope that it was the effects of Epstein Barr lingering but it now seems apparent that he isn't going to get back to even a shadow of his former self (he seems to even be accepting it himself). Froome, as you and others have said, needs at least one 'normal' season to see if he can get back to his pre-crash capability.

I think the big difference between the two, as you imply, is that Cav seems to be finding it hard to accept as he lives for the sport whereas Froome seems more likely to call it a day when he knows he is no longer going to win big races.

RichN95.

I'm going to start a thread "Should Rick Chasey shallow his pride and retire from posting"

salsiccia1

Froome is so driven he won't stop until either he achieves his goals or it becomes clearly impossible to achieve them. I don't see him giving up any time soon, even if popular wisdom is that he should pack it in.

He needs to race to ever get near to his previous level and this year hasn't allowed him to do that. If there's close to a normal calendar next year and he's still in this shape at this point next year, then I can see him calling it a day, but not before.

Personally, I can't see him ever getting back to the required level to win another Tour but I would dearly love to be proved wrong.

jam1e

It's going to take a brave DS to seen Froome disappear up the road in the break of the day and not think "have we been trolled?"

pblakeney

jam1e said:

It's going to take a brave DS to seen Froome disappear up the road in the break of the day and not think "have we been trolled?"

That is undoubtably a sound tactic with Carapaz sitting back saying "So, what you gonna do?".

RichN95.

Aside from this is it too early to say that 2021 will definitely be Pinot's year? You know he'll be tipped as a contender again.

mididoctors

Lol

phreak

andyp said:

FWIW, Froome doesn't strike me as someone who's going to ride around at the back of races pocketing a GT winner's salary. If he's not good enough to challenge for a GT win, he'll quit.

Clearly his injuries were very severe, but I don't think he's really had a chance to get the races in to get back to his best this truncated season. Since he's been established he's always taken time to build his form and he's only had intermittent racing this season. There's a lot of racing left in this Vuelta and I think he'll improve as the race goes on and show more of what he's capable of.

Whether he'll get back to his very best I don't know, but I do know that his commitment and self belief aren't to be underestimated.

It would be lovely to see him improve ala Pantani at the 2000 Giro, but he hasn't really shown any improvement all year. I mean in the time trial in Tirreno he was 1 minute behind Thomas over just 10km, and you'd think he could have blasted that free from domestique duties. It's not that he's well off the pace, but rather that he hasn't shown any improvement throughout this year.

phreak

salsiccia1 said:

Froome is so driven he won't stop until either he achieves his goals or it becomes clearly impossible to achieve them. I don't see him giving up any time soon, even if popular wisdom is that he should pack it in.

He needs to race to ever get near to his previous level and this year hasn't allowed him to do that. If there's close to a normal calendar next year and he's still in this shape at this point next year, then I can see him calling it a day, but not before.

Personally, I can't see him ever getting back to the required level to win another Tour but I would dearly love to be proved wrong.

After lockdown he had an identical program to Thomas, but whereas Thomas showed improvement, Froome has remained at around 70th on GC in every race he's done. If it was simply a case of getting some race time, shouldn't he have improved a bit? Instead he's gone from 37th in his first race back, to 41st in his 2nd, 71st in his 3rd, 91st in his 4th, and DNF in LBL. It seems as everyone else is getting up to speed, Froome is sadly going backwards in comparison.

No_Ta_Doctor

He didn't start from the same position as Thomas though. Thomas went into lockdown as the previous year's 2nd in the Tour (which might have ended better for him without the stage chops). Froome went into lockdown having raced a minor Arabian race or two having come back from horrific injury.

super_davo

I was very interested to see he published the stage on Strava, and included both power and HR.

And what does it show? His HR went up to 160 on the penultimate climb, which is very high for him, but that he sat up massively on the last climb. So don't read too much into the losing 11 minutes - he'd given up by that point and rolled in with his team mates (and I'd say the same thing about any comments about his GC positions in races back - he is not the sort to bother about coming in 25th on GC).

What I'd read more into was that his HR jumped after 5-10 minutes between 400-500 watts on the penultimate climb, which is pretty much what you'd expect him to do for an hour time trial pre accident. So clearly a long way off form.

I'd love him to get back to where he was, I think it would be incredibly inspiring if he could. The problem is that the competition is tougher than ever, the team support he'll have next year won't be as good as it was and he's not getting any younger.

phreak

No_Ta_Doctor said:

He didn't start from the same position as Thomas though. Thomas went into lockdown as the previous year's 2nd in the Tour (which might have ended better for him without the stage chops). Froome went into lockdown having raced a minor Arabian race or two having come back from horrific injury.

You could use Pozzovivo as another example then. He too had a horrific crash last summer, undergoing surgery to effectively save his life. He's older than Froome, yet has made it back to his usual top 10 spot at the Giro and that was after a fairly average Dauphine and 9 stages of the Tour to get into this season. Incidentally, he also managed 14th in the UAE Tour versus Froome's 71st.

None of this is to take anything away from Froome. It's just hard to see him getting back to a place where he will challenge for GC.

davidof

I'm thinking Joseba Beloki

phreak

davidof said:

I'm thinking Joseba Beloki

His was a strange situation. Went from doing just 22 days of racing in 2004 to riding all 3 GTs in 2005. He never returned to even close to the same heights again though.

bobmcstuff

phreak said:

salsiccia1 said:

Froome is so driven he won't stop until either he achieves his goals or it becomes clearly impossible to achieve them. I don't see him giving up any time soon, even if popular wisdom is that he should pack it in.

He needs to race to ever get near to his previous level and this year hasn't allowed him to do that. If there's close to a normal calendar next year and he's still in this shape at this point next year, then I can see him calling it a day, but not before.

Personally, I can't see him ever getting back to the required level to win another Tour but I would dearly love to be proved wrong.

After lockdown he had an identical program to Thomas, but whereas Thomas showed improvement, Froome has remained at around 70th on GC in every race he's done. If it was simply a case of getting some race time, shouldn't he have improved a bit? Instead he's gone from 37th in his first race back, to 41st in his 2nd, 71st in his 3rd, 91st in his 4th, and DNF in LBL. It seems as everyone else is getting up to speed, Froome is sadly going backwards in comparison.

He hasn't ridden a GT in over 2 years. He's not coming from the same place as Thomas.

And we know that different riders have come out of lockdown differently, some were absolutely firing but some seem to have taken a while to come back.

Not sure whether Froome can do it, but it's a somewhat different situation to Cavendish who has been trying to come back to racing for a few years to no success.

Depends what happens next year, benefit of the doubt for now but I am not sure.

davidof

phreak said:

davidof said:

I'm thinking Joseba Beloki

His was a strange situation. Went from doing just 22 days of racing in 2004 to riding all 3 GTs in 2005. He never returned to even close to the same heights again though.

It was a similar accident - thigh, arms etc.

Matti66

Was the break close to the hip socket like froome . It was horrific really . I think froome can get back to a high level -as he is not a sprinter, so totally different circumstances. - whether to a GT winner is open to doubt. If he feels the sensations again it will be game on.

No_Ta_Doctor

phreak said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

He didn't start from the same position as Thomas though. Thomas went into lockdown as the previous year's 2nd in the Tour (which might have ended better for him without the stage chops). Froome went into lockdown having raced a minor Arabian race or two having come back from horrific injury.

You could use Pozzovivo as another example then. He too had a horrific crash last summer, undergoing surgery to effectively save his life. He's older than Froome, yet has made it back to his usual top 10 spot at the Giro and that was after a fairly average Dauphine and 9 stages of the Tour to get into this season. Incidentally, he also managed 14th in the UAE Tour versus Froome's 71st.

None of this is to take anything away from Froome. It's just hard to see him getting back to a place where he will challenge for GC.

Possibly, though Pozzovivo would have been aiming noticeably lower than the target set by the best GT racer of his generation. If we assume that Froome is an "all or nothing" rider then progress won't be measured by reaching Giro top 10, and he'll be riding for training & as domestique - where his race goals are very different.

phreak

No_Ta_Doctor said:

phreak said:

No_Ta_Doctor said:

He didn't start from the same position as Thomas though. Thomas went into lockdown as the previous year's 2nd in the Tour (which might have ended better for him without the stage chops). Froome went into lockdown having raced a minor Arabian race or two having come back from horrific injury.

You could use Pozzovivo as another example then. He too had a horrific crash last summer, undergoing surgery to effectively save his life. He's older than Froome, yet has made it back to his usual top 10 spot at the Giro and that was after a fairly average Dauphine and 9 stages of the Tour to get into this season. Incidentally, he also managed 14th in the UAE Tour versus Froome's 71st.

None of this is to take anything away from Froome. It's just hard to see him getting back to a place where he will challenge for GC.

Possibly, though Pozzovivo would have been aiming noticeably lower than the target set by the best GT racer of his generation. If we assume that Froome is an "all or nothing" rider then progress won't be measured by reaching Giro top 10, and he'll be riding for training & as domestique - where his race goals are very different.

For sure, their levels going in were different, but just saying that Pozzo seems to have regained his old level after an incredibly serious accident whereas Froome seems a mile off. Being dropped on the penultimate climb isn't riding as a domestique, and even when he has been part of the train this year, he's been among the first carriages to be dropped.

As I've said before, I'd love him to do a Pantani and ride himself into form during the Vuelta and help Carapaz in a meaningful way, but I just don't see it.

ddraver

RichN95. said:

Aside from this is it too early to say that 2021 will definitely be Pinot's year? You know he'll be tipped as a contender again.

Don't start being anti-France now!

zest28

No_Ta_Doctor said:

He didn't start from the same position as Thomas though. Thomas went into lockdown as the previous year's 2nd in the Tour (which might have ended better for him without the stage chops). Froome went into lockdown having raced a minor Arabian race or two having come back from horrific injury.

Most likely, Thomas has a bigger base so when doing race preps, he is able to get to a higher peak. You can't really compare Thomas vs Froome at the moment.

Froome will have to restore his base power over the winter and then he will perform much better next year.

itboffin

could he be taking a bit of revenge for being pissed on by team sky? and perhaps using he's last few races to get back to top form for his new team?

As for Cav he was amazing but its gone and its sad to watch him race now, surely he's rice enough to take a staff role and retire from racing?

redvision

It's horrible to see Froome struggle like this, particularly so early in the race. I guess the further he falls behind though the more likely he will be allowed to ride away should he attack on a stage. So perhaps he is planning one big stage to take a final win (well, first since the team name) in ineos colours.