Giro 2020 - Stage 3: Enna – Etna 150 km *Spoilers*

DeVlaeminck

Not really, Thomas
could have been up the front where there were no bottles bouncing in front of him. It's bad luck but poor planning and poor bike handling makes you more vulnerable to bad luck. Maybe that bottle would have taken Sagan out - but over a career fewer incidents like that seem to affect your Sagan's or Armstrong's than your Geraint Thomas's.

bobmcstuff

I am not sure Nibs is on top top form - he looked good yesterday but not head and shoulders above the others.

Although he does get better through the 3 weeks usually.

DeVlaeminck

I agree, he's nearly 36 though so top form now may not be top form of a few years ago.

blazing_saddles

DeVlaeminck said:

Not really, Thomas
could have been up the front where there were no bottles bouncing in front of him. It's bad luck but poor planning and poor bike handling makes you more vulnerable to bad luck. Maybe that bottle would have taken Sagan out - but over a career fewer incidents like that seem to affect your Sagan's or Armstrong's than your Geraint Thomas's.

Nah.
Poor bike handling makes you more vulnerable to crashing,, but vulnerable to bad luck?
Being brought down by a police motorbike, while at the pointy end of the race: how did poor bike handling factor into that?
Andrey Zeits crashing right in front of him during last year's TdS: Bad bike handling or just like yesterday, being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
No doubt he's a crash magnet in that respect.

Best of all, what part did bike handling play in his bad luck of having landslides and snow cancel out his remaining opportunities to win last year's Tour de France?

Besides, if Thomas has such poor bike handling, how come he's always been Chris Froome's chaperone for the end of sprint stage bun fight for position?
How come he's won classics races on cobbles?

DeVlaeminck

My point is if he's at the front of the bunch there are no bidons bouncing in front of him.

No_Ta_Doctor

Not poor bike handling but possibly poor positioning. Jakob Fuglsang has also suffered from that - the crash that buggered his Tour last year was mid peloton. Nowt he could really have done to avoid it, but got slaughtered here in DK for being so far back

DeadCalm

blazing_saddles said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Not really, Thomas
could have been up the front where there were no bottles bouncing in front of him. It's bad luck but poor planning and poor bike handling makes you more vulnerable to bad luck. Maybe that bottle would have taken Sagan out - but over a career fewer incidents like that seem to affect your Sagan's or Armstrong's than your Geraint Thomas's.

Nah.
Poor bike handling makes you more vulnerable to crashing,, but vulnerable to bad luck?
Being brought down by a police motorbike, while at the pointy end of the race: how did poor bike handling factor into that?
Andrey Zeits crashing right in front of him during last year's TdS: Bad bike handling or just like yesterday, being in the wrong place at the wrong time?
No doubt he's a crash magnet in that respect.

Best of all, what part did bike handling play in his bad luck of having landslides and snow cancel out his remaining opportunities to win last year's Tour de France?

Besides, if Thomas has such poor bike handling, how come he's always been Chris Froome's chaperone for the end of sprint stage bun fight for position?
How come he's won classics races on cobbles?

I'll give you all the rest but when Sivakov was brought down by someone crashing in front of him during the recent Tour I'm pretty sure you claimed it was due to poor reactions.

On the other hand, with regard to folk blaming his crash yesterday on poor positioning, it was in the Neutral Zone ffs!

FWIW, I'm reasonably sure Thomas is an excellent bike handler. Maybe the issue is concentration? Or he could just have been particularly unlucky.

Pross

DeVlaeminck said:

My point is if he's at the front of the bunch there are no bidons bouncing in front of him.

During the race I'd agree and he normally would be but I don't think anyone expects an issue in the neutralised zone.

pblakeney

DeadCalm said:

On the other hand, with regard to folk blaming his crash yesterday on poor positioning, it was in the Neutral Zone ffs!

FWIW, I'm reasonably sure Thomas is an excellent bike handler. Maybe the issue is concentration? Or he could just have been particularly unlucky.

Anyone who has watched the pre crash footage with dozens of bidons rolling in every direction would come the the conclusion that he was unlucky, and everyone else was lucky. I'm surprised there weren't more on the deck.

DeadCalm

pblakeney said:

DeadCalm said:

On the other hand, with regard to folk blaming his crash yesterday on poor positioning, it was in the Neutral Zone ffs!

FWIW, I'm reasonably sure Thomas is an excellent bike handler. Maybe the issue is concentration? Or he could just have been particularly unlucky.

Anyone who has watched the pre crash footage with dozens of bidons rolling in every direction would come the the conclusion that he was unlucky, and everyone else was lucky. I'm surprised there weren't more on the deck.

Sorry, I meant with regard to his crash record overall. In my mind, there is no question that yesterday was down to nothing more than rotten luck.

bobmcstuff

DeVlaeminck said:

My point is if he's at the front of the bunch there are no bidons bouncing in front of him.

Well, he was in the neutralised zone at the time...

Wonder if the lead car will start taking these narrow twisty ones a bit slower.

Pross

It did look a bit quick yesterday but then it's awkward downhill as you also don't want cyclists running into the back of the lead car either. I remember doing a race in the early 90s where the lead car took us up a fairly stiff climb at 20mph in the neutralised zone and everyone was going hard to keep up with some getting dropped.

No_Ta_Doctor

Can't remember where I saw it or I'd link it, but I read reports of riders doing 65 km/hr in the neutral zone here. Which seems a tad excessive.

They were certainly pretty quick when they were on that downhill bumpy/paving stone section where Thomas crashed.

That said, you can't expect the neutral zone to be a chance to grab a nap - it's far from being the first neutral zone crash we've seen (Zakarin in the Tour the most recent?) and certainly won't be the last. While it might not be a critical race point where you need to make sure you're at the front there's no harm in making sure your GC rider is well positioned and protected as soon as you're rolling.

Summary:
Thomas desperately unlucky, but could possibly have been in a safer spot.
If he'd known they were going to be going that quick he probably would have been.
Hindsight is marvellous.

m.r.m.

Lanterne_Rogue said:

Only thing that winds me up hugely about Nibali is Kirby inevitably wanging on about his descending skill. It looks dramatic but it rarely actually does any damage (to himself or others). It's not even like Alaphilippe, who at least offers the potential he'll go over the side any second now in a Looney Toons-esque cloud of dust and limbs.

His descending put Kruijswick into that snow drift to win the Giro and he also used it to beat Pinot in one of his Lombardia wins. So, I don't think it is overstated. In my opinion Nibali is the second best descender in the world after Mohoric.

TheBigBean

m.r.m. said:

Lanterne_Rogue said:

Only thing that winds me up hugely about Nibali is Kirby inevitably wanging on about his descending skill. It looks dramatic but it rarely actually does any damage (to himself or others). It's not even like Alaphilippe, who at least offers the potential he'll go over the side any second now in a Looney Toons-esque cloud of dust and limbs.

His descending put Kruijswick into that snow drift to win the Giro and he also used it to beat Pinot in one of his Lombardia wins. So, I don't think it is overstated. In my opinion Nibali is the second best descender in the world after Mohoric.

Isn't the generally accepted view that he is happy to take risks so goes downhill quicker than a lot of other riders. He doesn't however do it as well as some other riders, so periodically makes mistakes leading to the two contradictory views that he is good/bad descender.

He also won a stage of some GT by descending quicker than everyone else.

m.r.m.

Regardless he is quicker then. One can't really defend the "I would be quicker if I wanted to be" line (though his risk taking on a descent did have him crash out of the Olympics 2016). Personally after watching so many of his descents, I find it hard to say he is lacking technique. I don't presume to know it all there though and am fine to be corrected.

Bottom line is, he drops most others in his weight class on descents and uses that ability to routinely pressure other contenders into trouble.

Pross

m.r.m. said:

Lanterne_Rogue said:

Only thing that winds me up hugely about Nibali is Kirby inevitably wanging on about his descending skill. It looks dramatic but it rarely actually does any damage (to himself or others). It's not even like Alaphilippe, who at least offers the potential he'll go over the side any second now in a Looney Toons-esque cloud of dust and limbs.

His descending put Kruijswick into that snow drift to win the Giro and he also used it to beat Pinot in one of his Lombardia wins. So, I don't think it is overstated. In my opinion Nibali is the second best descender in the world after Mohoric.

WVA seemed to have no problem keeping the pair of them at bay on the descent to the finish of MSR.

m.r.m.

Because someone is great, doesn't mean someone else isn't (Especially WVA). WVA is also at least 10 kg heavier. It's more remarkable how he (WVA) was able to hang around going uphill that much in the Tour.

ocdupalais

TheBigBean said:

m.r.m. said:

Lanterne_Rogue said:

Only thing that winds me up hugely about Nibali is Kirby inevitably wanging on about his descending skill. It looks dramatic but it rarely actually does any damage (to himself or others). It's not even like Alaphilippe, who at least offers the potential he'll go over the side any second now in a Looney Toons-esque cloud of dust and limbs.

His descending put Kruijswick into that snow drift to win the Giro and he also used it to beat Pinot in one of his Lombardia wins. So, I don't think it is overstated. In my opinion Nibali is the second best descender in the world after Mohoric.

Isn't the generally accepted view that he is happy to take risks so goes downhill quicker than a lot of other riders. He doesn't however do it as well as some other riders, so periodically makes mistakes leading to the two contradictory views that he is good/bad descender.

He also won a stage of some GT by descending quicker than everyone else.

Yeah - I think this is pretty much the shape of it -
But mrm's point was also valid - except maybe a few years ago now. That reputation for unparalleled descending has been eclipsed -
hence what Pross said...

coopster_the_1st

Pross said:

m.r.m. said:

Lanterne_Rogue said:

Only thing that winds me up hugely about Nibali is Kirby inevitably wanging on about his descending skill. It looks dramatic but it rarely actually does any damage (to himself or others). It's not even like Alaphilippe, who at least offers the potential he'll go over the side any second now in a Looney Toons-esque cloud of dust and limbs.

His descending put Kruijswick into that snow drift to win the Giro and he also used it to beat Pinot in one of his Lombardia wins. So, I don't think it is overstated. In my opinion Nibali is the second best descender in the world after Mohoric.

WVA seemed to have no problem keeping the pair of them at bay on the descent to the finish of MSR.

Agree. I'd put WvA and Sagan as comfortably better descenders. He may be the best of the GC favourites but he has to go down hill faster when he cannot go uphill as quick as the major GC contenders.

kingstongraham

If anyone tries to follow his line they are in trouble - he seems unbelievably good at rescuing himself from being in slightly the wrong place at the wrong speed. The best like Wva just look effortless.

Lanterne_Rogue

Carlton Kirby reckons he's a great descender.

The prosecution rests, M'Lud.

RichN95.

I remember Cavendish scoffing at the idea that he's a great descender. As people have said he just takes more risks than his rivals and is quite good at saving his mistakes.
It' similar to the idea that Bardet is a great descender. He was great on the descents near the AG2R HQ.

ddraver

He's also phenomenally good at bouncing...

Where most riders fall to a tour ending injury, Nibbles just gets back up unhurt and carries on...

DeVlaeminck

As someone said above Mohoric seems to be about the best of those we see at the sharp end of races. At Liege didn't he open the gap on the bunch that allowed him to come across to the front group on the descent - I know it was wet but it wasn't even that technical. Other than him Sagan has to be in the mix.

As for Nibali - it may be willingness to take risks but that is a big part of being a good descender. Cavendish can scoff if he wants but it looks to me that Cavs ability to position himself for sprints has declined at least in part because he no longer wants to take the risks involved. Hirschi looked very fast downhill but he was also criticised for being a risk taker the other week.

Matti66

ddraver said:

He's also phenomenally good at bouncing...

Where most riders fall to a tour ending injury, Nibbles just gets back up unhurt and carries on...

Maybe, but he crashed in the Worlds when in the final with the front three, A Lombardy with a broken collar bone, and The Rio Olympics RR. - ( Thomas crashed there too!)

rick_chasey

This thread

No_Ta_Doctor

Let's face it, we probably don't even get to see the best descenders in the peloton. The grupetto always have to make up time they lost on the ascents, their descending speeds can be astounding.

For me, I'm happy to distinguish between technically accomplished descenders and those that are quick but maybe not as classy. I'd put Nibs in that 2nd group. Hirschi looked marvellous descending in the TdF, but managed to stack it looking for a second stage win (says he had a different tyre on he was unused to). I'd say he was good even with the crash