Ineos Grenadiers

RichN95.

andyp said:

I'm not sure that 'lack of talent' and 'GB talent' stands up to scrutiny. They've got Pidcock, Ethan Hayter, Ben Turner, Leo Hayter and Josh Tarling in their ranks. Of those, only Leo hasn't won a race this season and he's been ill.

I think people took the quartet of Wiggins, Froome, Cavendish and Thomas a little bit for granted. Few countries have ever had quartet like that in history, let alone on the same squad, and in the case of the 2012 Tour of Romandie, the same team.

stage_hunter

andyp said:

stage_hunter said:

roscoe said:

stage_hunter said:

gsk82 said:

blazing_saddles said:

m.r.m. said:

So why are they being covered/treated differently?

Sky came from an upstart, English speaking nation, not a traditional cycling country. Those that do and therefore have a long established history of doping, get a free pass not to have their performances questioned, because the don't try to hide what they get up to. So, such teams can safely be lauded, not ridiculed.

That is the logic applied from behind many a keyboard.

Wasn't it just British press hounding a British success story?

I think it was both.

There are some more established British cycling journalists who were peeved that their niche sport got popular, and dont like success as they dont know how to report on it. And then there is Dan Roan who has little judgement as to what is a story and what is not.

They are still questioning Sky in the 10’s rather than the accelerating problems in 2023 Ineos.

What accelerating problems?

Going backwards on GTs and a lack of talent coming through suggesting talent ID issues. Especially missing out on GB talent- See FDJ & increasingly JV.

I'm not sure that 'lack of talent' and 'GB talent' stands up to scrutiny. They've got Pidcock, Ethan Hayter, Ben Turner, Leo Hayter and Josh Tarling in their ranks. Of those, only Leo hasn't won a race this season and he's been ill.

I was largely thinking about riders younger than the first three you mention. I was talking about Tarling’s age and younger. Haven’t Jumbo just signed three very promising British riders? DSM in the Vuelta? They seem to have better GC talent from GB?

If you compare Ineos to other teams, they seem currently to have a paucity of elite GC contenders.

I was quite supportive of Ineos during the TDF in terms of then not having much luck. Now I would wonder whether the lack of a development team is hindering them badly.

DeadCalm

stage_hunter said:

andyp said:

stage_hunter said:

roscoe said:

stage_hunter said:

gsk82 said:

blazing_saddles said:

m.r.m. said:

So why are they being covered/treated differently?

Sky came from an upstart, English speaking nation, not a traditional cycling country. Those that do and therefore have a long established history of doping, get a free pass not to have their performances questioned, because the don't try to hide what they get up to. So, such teams can safely be lauded, not ridiculed.

That is the logic applied from behind many a keyboard.

Wasn't it just British press hounding a British success story?

I think it was both.

There are some more established British cycling journalists who were peeved that their niche sport got popular, and dont like success as they dont know how to report on it. And then there is Dan Roan who has little judgement as to what is a story and what is not.

They are still questioning Sky in the 10’s rather than the accelerating problems in 2023 Ineos.

What accelerating problems?

Going backwards on GTs and a lack of talent coming through suggesting talent ID issues. Especially missing out on GB talent- See FDJ & increasingly JV.

I'm not sure that 'lack of talent' and 'GB talent' stands up to scrutiny. They've got Pidcock, Ethan Hayter, Ben Turner, Leo Hayter and Josh Tarling in their ranks. Of those, only Leo hasn't won a race this season and he's been ill.

I was largely thinking about riders younger than the first three you mention. I was talking about Tarling’s age and younger. Haven’t Jumbo just signed three very promising British riders? DSM in the Vuelta? They seem to have better GC talent from GB?

If you compare Ineos to other teams, they seem currently to have a paucity of elite GC contenders.

I was quite supportive of Ineos during the TDF in terms of then not having much luck. Now I would wonder whether the lack of a development team is hindering them badly.

I don't think it's the lack of a development team that's the issue.

Unless you are counting riders that were in the Rabobank development team years ago, there are maybe three riders in the current JV squad who came through that route and none of them are GC riders. None of Vingegaaard, Pogacar nor Evenepoel rode for a development team. In fact, none of the current top 10 in the Vuelta did.

The issue is not that INEOS don't have a development team, it's that they have been not good at spotting the young talent that's out there that can step up to be a GC contender. They should be all over Isaac del Toro, for instance, but the rumour is he's likely to sign for UAE who, as far as I'm aware, don't have a development team either.

roscoe

stage_hunter said:

roscoe said:

stage_hunter said:

gsk82 said:

blazing_saddles said:

m.r.m. said:

So why are they being covered/treated differently?

Sky came from an upstart, English speaking nation, not a traditional cycling country. Those that do and therefore have a long established history of doping, get a free pass not to have their performances questioned, because the don't try to hide what they get up to. So, such teams can safely be lauded, not ridiculed.

That is the logic applied from behind many a keyboard.

Wasn't it just British press hounding a British success story?

I think it was both.

There are some more established British cycling journalists who were peeved that their niche sport got popular, and dont like success as they dont know how to report on it. And then there is Dan Roan who has little judgement as to what is a story and what is not.

They are still questioning Sky in the 10’s rather than the accelerating problems in 2023 Ineos.

What accelerating problems?

Going backwards on GTs and a lack of talent coming through suggesting talent ID issues. Especially missing out on GB talent- See FDJ & increasingly JV.

They seem to have quite a few talented younger riders and who’s to say the guys at FDJ and JV will progress?

pblakeney

stage_hunter said:

andyp said:

stage_hunter said:

roscoe said:

stage_hunter said:

gsk82 said:

blazing_saddles said:

m.r.m. said:

So why are they being covered/treated differently?

Sky came from an upstart, English speaking nation, not a traditional cycling country. Those that do and therefore have a long established history of doping, get a free pass not to have their performances questioned, because the don't try to hide what they get up to. So, such teams can safely be lauded, not ridiculed.

That is the logic applied from behind many a keyboard.

Wasn't it just British press hounding a British success story?

I think it was both.

There are some more established British cycling journalists who were peeved that their niche sport got popular, and dont like success as they dont know how to report on it. And then there is Dan Roan who has little judgement as to what is a story and what is not.

They are still questioning Sky in the 10’s rather than the accelerating problems in 2023 Ineos.

What accelerating problems?

Going backwards on GTs and a lack of talent coming through suggesting talent ID issues. Especially missing out on GB talent- See FDJ & increasingly JV.

I'm not sure that 'lack of talent' and 'GB talent' stands up to scrutiny. They've got Pidcock, Ethan Hayter, Ben Turner, Leo Hayter and Josh Tarling in their ranks. Of those, only Leo hasn't won a race this season and he's been ill.

I was largely thinking about riders younger than the first three you mention. I was talking about Tarling’s age and younger. Haven’t Jumbo just signed three very promising British riders? DSM in the Vuelta? They seem to have better GC talent from GB?
...

Ineos ≠ Sky and have not declared national ambitions (AFAIK) so why the obsession with GB talent? Are we going back to national teams? They do need better GC riders though.

Pross

stage_hunter said:

andyp said:

stage_hunter said:

roscoe said:

stage_hunter said:

gsk82 said:

blazing_saddles said:

m.r.m. said:

So why are they being covered/treated differently?

Sky came from an upstart, English speaking nation, not a traditional cycling country. Those that do and therefore have a long established history of doping, get a free pass not to have their performances questioned, because the don't try to hide what they get up to. So, such teams can safely be lauded, not ridiculed.

That is the logic applied from behind many a keyboard.

Wasn't it just British press hounding a British success story?

I think it was both.

There are some more established British cycling journalists who were peeved that their niche sport got popular, and dont like success as they dont know how to report on it. And then there is Dan Roan who has little judgement as to what is a story and what is not.

They are still questioning Sky in the 10’s rather than the accelerating problems in 2023 Ineos.

What accelerating problems?

Going backwards on GTs and a lack of talent coming through suggesting talent ID issues. Especially missing out on GB talent- See FDJ & increasingly JV.

I'm not sure that 'lack of talent' and 'GB talent' stands up to scrutiny. They've got Pidcock, Ethan Hayter, Ben Turner, Leo Hayter and Josh Tarling in their ranks. Of those, only Leo hasn't won a race this season and he's been ill.

I was largely thinking about riders younger than the first three you mention. I was talking about Tarling’s age and younger. Haven’t Jumbo just signed three very promising British riders? DSM in the Vuelta? They seem to have better GC talent from GB?

If you compare Ineos to other teams, they seem currently to have a paucity of elite GC contenders.

I was quite supportive of Ineos during the TDF in terms of then not having much luck. Now I would wonder whether the lack of a development team is hindering them badly.

They came second at the Giro and fifth at the Tour so not many teams have better options.

ddraver

I was gonna say... Other than the 3 galaticos, which teams are overflowing with GC contenders..?

roscoe

ddraver said:

I was gonna say... Other than the 3 galaticos, which teams are overflowing with GC contenders..?

Quite.

Pross

ddraver said:

I was gonna say... Other than the 3 galaticos, which teams are overflowing with GC contenders..?

It’s pretty much always the case. For about 8 years they just all happened to be at Sky whether through clever recruitment or pure luck. Now they’re not. They would probably have had a couple more years but for Bernal’s crash and then Pog developing quicker than most would have expected and Jonas coming through unexpectedly to most in a similar way to Froome. Remember when Sky’s big GT hope was Lofkvist?

wakemalcolm

I remember LÖFKVIST finishing 15th in the 2010 tour. I'm not sure which of the 14 ahead of him I'd stake (or steak) my life on being clean. Perhaps he was the right hire at the wrong time.

rick_chasey

How does their budget compare to Jumbo nowadays?

redvision

Most reports estimate ineos budget this season is almost double that of jv (€50+ compared to €25-29mill).

Only estimates though.

daniel_b

That would seem to be nuts (Investment versus results and likely ones) if that was anywhere near the truth.

kingstongraham

Surely peanuts compared to what he's going to lose on those £75,000 monstrosities if there's any sense in this world.

redvision

daniel_b said:

That would seem to be nuts (Investment versus results and likely ones) if that was anywhere near the truth.

Well they are estimates because most pro teams don't release their financial figures, but pretty much every article on team finance reports these budgets.

Quick Google search for 2023 budgets:

https://procyclinguk.com/what-are-the-budgets-of-the-worldtour-cycling-teams-in-2023/

https://thesportsdaily.com/news/tour-de-france-2023-budgets-ineos-grenadier-leads-top-5-highest-spending-cycling-teams/

simon_e

redvision said:

Most reports estimate ineos budget this season is almost double that of jv (€50+ compared to €25-29mill).

A ridiculous amount of money spent and they can't even win a race!

(not counting PFP & Pidders on the dirt)

Apparently some of the budget has gone on buying out Rodriguez's agreement with Movistar because they didn't seem keen to keep him until mid-July.

As an aside, 10 years ago there were Sky jerseys everywhere. I've not yet seen an Ineos jersey outside the pro peloton (including online), in fact WT team jerseys seem far less common out on the roads these days. Is it that they're riding in Rapha/Le Col/Maap stuff or is everyone into grvl?

RichN95.

redvision said:

Most reports estimate ineos budget this season is almost double that of jv (€50+ compared to €25-29mill).

Only estimates though.

A recent report in the Dutch media estimated Jumbo's budget as 50-60 million

https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/jumbo-visma-kan-een-dopingzaak-op-dit-moment-echt-niet-gebruiken/

UAE will be similar

Pross

simon_e said:

redvision said:

Most reports estimate ineos budget this season is almost double that of jv (€50+ compared to €25-29mill).

A ridiculous amount of money spent and they can't even win a race!

(not counting PFP & Pidders on the dirt)

Apparently some of the budget has gone on buying out Rodriguez's agreement with Movistar because they didn't seem keen to keep him until mid-July.

As an aside, 10 years ago there were Sky jerseys everywhere. I've not yet seen an Ineos jersey outside the pro peloton (including online), in fact WT team jerseys seem far less common out on the roads these days. Is it that they're riding in Rapha/Le Col/Maap stuff or is everyone into grvl?

Not forgetting the 24 wins (exccluding national championships) they have this season including 2 TDF stages but other than that, yes, they can't win a race. I mean, they're the 3rd team in the UCI rankings. People don't half talk bollox on the internet.

redvision

RichN95. said:

redvision said:

Most reports estimate ineos budget this season is almost double that of jv (€50+ compared to €25-29mill).

Only estimates though.

A recent report in the Dutch media estimated Jumbo's budget as 50-60 million

https://www.wielerflits.nl/nieuws/jumbo-visma-kan-een-dopingzaak-op-dit-moment-echt-niet-gebruiken/

UAE will be similar

Tbh, given their squad, its not surprising if their budget is that high.

kingstongraham

Pross said:

simon_e said:

redvision said:

Most reports estimate ineos budget this season is almost double that of jv (€50+ compared to €25-29mill).

A ridiculous amount of money spent and they can't even win a race!

(not counting PFP & Pidders on the dirt)

Apparently some of the budget has gone on buying out Rodriguez's agreement with Movistar because they didn't seem keen to keep him until mid-July.

As an aside, 10 years ago there were Sky jerseys everywhere. I've not yet seen an Ineos jersey outside the pro peloton (including online), in fact WT team jerseys seem far less common out on the roads these days. Is it that they're riding in Rapha/Le Col/Maap stuff or is everyone into grvl?

Not forgetting the 24 wins (exccluding national championships) they have this season including 2 TDF stages but other than that, yes, they can't win a race. I mean, they're the 3rd team in the UCI rankings. People don't half talk bollox on the internet.

Applies "World tour level" filter and compares to Jumbo and UAE.

Pross

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

simon_e said:

redvision said:

Most reports estimate ineos budget this season is almost double that of jv (€50+ compared to €25-29mill).

A ridiculous amount of money spent and they can't even win a race!

(not counting PFP & Pidders on the dirt)

Apparently some of the budget has gone on buying out Rodriguez's agreement with Movistar because they didn't seem keen to keep him until mid-July.

As an aside, 10 years ago there were Sky jerseys everywhere. I've not yet seen an Ineos jersey outside the pro peloton (including online), in fact WT team jerseys seem far less common out on the roads these days. Is it that they're riding in Rapha/Le Col/Maap stuff or is everyone into grvl?

Not forgetting the 24 wins (exccluding national championships) they have this season including 2 TDF stages but other than that, yes, they can't win a race. I mean, they're the 3rd team in the UCI rankings. People don't half talk bollox on the internet.

Applies "World tour level" filter and compares to Jumbo and UAE.

The comment was that they "can't even win a race" which is plainly bollox. Their recruitment strategy, if there is one, has been baffling since the change to Ineos and they certainly don't seem to be getting value for money but they are still the third ranked team. They have a lot of talented young riders but no obvious direction. Rodriguez may give them a GT option but would probably be better refocussing around the fact they no longer have the best GT riders and aiming more for one day races and stages.

simon_e

Pross said:

The comment was that they "can't even win a race" which is plainly bollox.

It was not intended as a plain statement of fact, I'm aware they have had some wins and Thomas's oh-so-nearly Giro.

But it's poor value for the biggest of big money outfits. Just an opinion.

wallace_and_gromit

simon_e said:

Pross said:

The comment was that they "can't even win a race" which is plainly bollox.

It was not intended as a plain statement of fact, I'm aware they have had some wins and Thomas's oh-so-nearly Giro.

But it's poor value for the biggest of big money outfits. Just an opinion.

I agree about the poor VFM, but if that's your point, why not make it explicitly? "Can't win a race" has a very specific meaning and is easily proven to be false.

roscoe

simon_e said:

redvision said:

Most reports estimate ineos budget this season is almost double that of jv (€50+ compared to €25-29mill).

A ridiculous amount of money spent and they can't even win a race!

(not counting PFP & Pidders on the dirt)

Apparently some of the budget has gone on buying out Rodriguez's agreement with Movistar because they didn't seem keen to keep him until mid-July.

As an aside, 10 years ago there were Sky jerseys everywhere. I've not yet seen an Ineos jersey outside the pro peloton (including online), in fact WT team jerseys seem far less common out on the roads these days. Is it that they're riding in Rapha/Le Col/Maap stuff or is everyone into grvl?

Seriously? They’ve had some significant wins this season.

Also seen plenty of people out wearing Ineos kit and other current and older team’s kit.

roscoe

simon_e said:

Pross said:

The comment was that they "can't even win a race" which is plainly bollox.

It was not intended as a plain statement of fact, I'm aware they have had some wins and Thomas's oh-so-nearly Giro.

But it's poor value for the biggest of big money outfits. Just an opinion




It was actually a statement of fact. You said “they can’t even win a race”

simon_e

roscoe said:

Also seen plenty of people out wearing Ineos kit and other current and older team’s kit.

You have. I haven't. Spot the difference.

roscoe said:

It was actually a statement of fact. You said “they can’t even win a race”

It wasn't (obviously, duh) because they have won some races. No need to get hot under the collar about it.

roscoe

simon_e said:

roscoe said:

Also seen plenty of people out wearing Ineos kit and other current and older team’s kit.

You have. I haven't. Spot the difference.

roscoe said:

It was actually a statement of fact. You said “they can’t even win a race”

It wasn't (obviously, duh) because they have won some races. No need to get hot under the collar about it.

There’s some amount of nonsense written on the internet….

Pross

wallace_and_gromit said:

simon_e said:

Pross said:

The comment was that they "can't even win a race" which is plainly bollox.

It was not intended as a plain statement of fact, I'm aware they have had some wins and Thomas's oh-so-nearly Giro.

But it's poor value for the biggest of big money outfits. Just an opinion.

I agree about the poor VFM, but if that's your point, why not make it explicitly? "Can't win a race" has a very specific meaning and is easily proven to be false.

It was even more specific as it acknowledged they have won in dirt with Pidcock and PFP. To me that makes it an intended statement of fact they haven’t won on the road.

wakemalcolm

This is the internet and, with apologies to @simon_e, the only possible consequence of someone being figurative rather than literal is a complete pile-on.

kingstongraham

Given that Sky only ever cared about winning one race, it is true that they can't win a race. That one.