Ineos Grenadiers
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They don’t appear to be trying very hard to keep them then.gsk82 said:
They used to let people go because people wanted to ride for them. It isn't their choice anymore. They aren't "letting them go".roscoe said:It’s all very interesting. Sky/Ineos never used to get it wrong when they let a rider go to another team.
Van Baarle to Jumbo was the probably the first that raised eyebrows.
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Wonder what their GC plan is next year if it’s not Rodriguez.0
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Without the crash Froome probably had another tour in him, possibly two but he wasn't getting any younger.N0bodyOfTheGoat said:It's crazy how things have turned out, five years ago Froome won the Giro with that Finestre stage attack and he came third in TDF, with Bernal winning the shortened 2019 TDF. Back then I'd expect them both to be still giving Pog and Rog a run for their money today, but awful injuries have taken chunks of ability away prematurely from the Ineos pair.
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Given the dominance of the top two Ineos and others may be well advised to aim for other targets than Tour wins. No doubt a challenger or challengers will emerge but trying to find one in the next couple of years looks a tall order.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0
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I appreciate he was more a superdomestique for this Tour, but 2hrs 20 minutes down for Egan doesn't seem promising.
Hopefully he's just using this to get a GT in his legs and can build on it.0 -
I'm not sure you can say there is a top two anymore.DeVlaeminck said:Given the dominance of the top two Ineos and others may be well advised to aim for other targets than Tour wins. No doubt a challenger or challengers will emerge but trying to find one in the next couple of years looks a tall order.
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Maybe, but there is still a huge gap from 2nd to 3rd.DeadCalm said:
I'm not sure you can say there is a top two anymore.DeVlaeminck said:Given the dominance of the top two Ineos and others may be well advised to aim for other targets than Tour wins. No doubt a challenger or challengers will emerge but trying to find one in the next couple of years looks a tall order.
And....I'd bet Pog will come back stronger. Enough is up for debate.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
He'll never win a GT again. Physical ability notwithstanding, when you hear him being interviewed, he's just not fussed.roscoe said:I appreciate he was more a superdomestique for this Tour, but 2hrs 20 minutes down for Egan doesn't seem promising.
Hopefully he's just using this to get a GT in his legs and can build on it.2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner0 -
Hell of an expensive domestique then. Contracted until 2026.carbonclem said:
He'll never win a GT again. Physical ability notwithstanding, when you hear him being interviewed, he's just not fussed.roscoe said:I appreciate he was more a superdomestique for this Tour, but 2hrs 20 minutes down for Egan doesn't seem promising.
Hopefully he's just using this to get a GT in his legs and can build on it.0 -
Agree he probably won't win another GT (Vuelta always possible), not sure about not being fussed. Maybe just realistic about it taking longer and not wanting to wear his heart on his sleeve all the time publicly. You don't get to where he was absent of ambition.carbonclem said:
He'll never win a GT again. Physical ability notwithstanding, when you hear him being interviewed, he's just not fussed.roscoe said:I appreciate he was more a superdomestique for this Tour, but 2hrs 20 minutes down for Egan doesn't seem promising.
Hopefully he's just using this to get a GT in his legs and can build on it.PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20231 -
These things can change very quickly. I wouldn’t be surprised if this was the Vingegaard’s best tour. Im not saying he wont win next year, just he wont be as dominant.DeVlaeminck said:Given the dominance of the top two Ineos and others may be well advised to aim for other targets than Tour wins. No doubt a challenger or challengers will emerge but trying to find one in the next couple of years looks a tall order.
Where Jumvo do steal a march I think is in talent ID at a young age.0 -
Although apparently, they only picked up Vingegaard when they contacted his u23 team about a different rider and his team said this is the guy you should be signing.stage_hunter said:
Where Jumvo do steal a march I think is in talent ID at a young age.Twitter: @RichN950 -
Brailsford was interviewed on ITV4 last. He was asked if INEOS had lost its focus on winning the Tour. He was adamant that this was not the case and highlighted that the emergence of serious contenders is not something that can really be planned for, with the implication that there's patience needed until the INEOS roster contains such a rider again.2
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Yeah I think that's right. It's not like football where if you have the budget you can just go out and buy players to get you in the mix.
To be fair we've probably seen them change tack by sending their best GC rider to the Giro - bold move that very nearly got the win.
[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]2 -
Does that implication suggest they don’t believe they have such a rider just now, I wonder?wallace_and_gromit said:Brailsford was interviewed on ITV4 last. He was asked if INEOS had lost its focus on winning the Tour. He was adamant that this was not the case and highlighted that the emergence of serious contenders is not something that can really be planned for, with the implication that there's patience needed until the INEOS roster contains such a rider again.
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That was my take. I guess the view is that they have to wait for Ving and Pog to fade away (could be a long wait) and do what they can to bag the next big thing.roscoe said:
Does that implication suggest they don’t believe they have such a rider just now, I wonder?wallace_and_gromit said:Brailsford was interviewed on ITV4 last. He was asked if INEOS had lost its focus on winning the Tour. He was adamant that this was not the case and highlighted that the emergence of serious contenders is not something that can really be planned for, with the implication that there's patience needed until the INEOS roster contains such a rider again.
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That is a fair assessment of the current situation, like it or not.wallace_and_gromit said:
That was my take. I guess the view is that they have to wait for Ving and Pog to fade away (could be a long wait) and do what they can to bag the next big thing.roscoe said:
Does that implication suggest they don’t believe they have such a rider just now, I wonder?wallace_and_gromit said:Brailsford was interviewed on ITV4 last. He was asked if INEOS had lost its focus on winning the Tour. He was adamant that this was not the case and highlighted that the emergence of serious contenders is not something that can really be planned for, with the implication that there's patience needed until the INEOS roster contains such a rider again.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.2 -
Just catching up on the rumours Remco is actively looking for a move. He does seem the one most likely to be able to challenge JV and TP in 2024 but it sounds like he wants Tour winner's money when he's not shown he is that level yet. A huge risk to tie up so much of the budget on a rider who may then be difficult to move on if he can't succeed.
I wonder if a *very* strong Vuelta may make someone get the chequebook out - or whether these decisions are made more on power data than actual results.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]1 -
Maybe i'm talking sh!t, but does the team not need a bit of a refresh?
They were cutting edge stuff for a decade, but they seem fairly par for the course now.
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I think it all boils down to having the absolute best rider, and they had that with Froome and now they don't.
When you have the best rider in the world, everything looks great.3 -
A refresh of staff or riders?rick_chasey said:Maybe i'm talking sh!t, but does the team not need a bit of a refresh?
They were cutting edge stuff for a decade, but they seem fairly par for the course now.
I think they've done both to be honest, the sports director team is very different now than it was five years ago, Tim Kerrison has left so the performance team has changed and obviously Brailsford is not involved in the day to day management of the team any more.
The roster has changed a lot too, with more focus on young riders than before, with some success. I think talent spotting has become far more crucial now than it was in Sky's peak years, where they could just go and recruit the talent they needed. Now you have to get the next GC rider when he's in the u23 ranks and give him a long term contract and Ineos haven't achieved that. They missed out on Pogacar, Evenepoel (althought they were in for him) Ayuso and Vingegaard and those four look to be the GT winners of the next few seasons.
I think it's inevitable that a team will lose dominance, sport is cyclical by nature and all great teams invariably see a performance drop, irrespective of the sport.2 -
I find Ayuso an odd one, going to a team that already has one of the two top GT riders rather than somewhere that he'd have been the first choice. It would make sense if the current rider was older and you get chance to develop through a team already set up for GT wins (like Bernal at Sky) but he's going to have to earn the right to be their Tour contender.
Ineos does feel a little bit directionless at the moment though. In the past they were very much focussed on winning the Tour pretty much to the exclusion of everything else which a lot of people didn't like. They stated their aim to have a British Tour winner when they first started, people laughed and they actually got 3 in 6 Tours. Now I'm not quite sure what their aims are and in many races it's hard to even know who their team leader is. Young riders come in then are rumoured to be leaving before they really achieve anything, they need a medium term aim (they probably have but just aren't stating it publically as they did previously).2 -
When people were listing all those out of contract this year I thought there were a lot of riders of a similar age, who'd been signed to create the core of the team for GTs. Probably not a surprise they're declining (if that's fair) at about the same time.rick_chasey said:Maybe i'm talking sh!t, but does the team not need a bit of a refresh?
Have they been smart enough about giving younger riders experience two or three years ago? I can see it creating two problems - firstly, a lack of experience now. But also if you're not going to get that experience as a young rider, why sign for them over a team that might offer it?0 -
Just a guess but their long term strategy (Plan B ) post Froome and Gee were based around Bernal. That went pear shaped and now we are in an unexpected transition to Plan C.The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.3 -
It literally is. If you have the budget you pay the transfer fee. It's just no-one really has the budget for a fee.DeVlaeminck said:Yeah I think that's right. It's not like football where if you have the budget you can just go out and buy players to get you in the mix.
To be fair we've probably seen them change tack by sending their best GC rider to the Giro - bold move that very nearly got the win.0 -
I also suspect that the rumours have been exaggerated a little to get people to listen to a podcast. If you listened carefully, nothing is likely to happen this year.DeVlaeminck said:Just catching up on the rumours Remco is actively looking for a move. He does seem the one most likely to be able to challenge JV and TP in 2024 but it sounds like he wants Tour winner's money when he's not shown he is that level yet. A huge risk to tie up so much of the budget on a rider who may then be difficult to move on if he can't succeed.
I wonder if a *very* strong Vuelta may make someone get the chequebook out - or whether these decisions are made more on power data than actual results.0 -
stage_hunter said:
It literally is. If you have the budget you pay the transfer fee. It's just no-one really has the budget for a fee.DeVlaeminck said:Yeah I think that's right. It's not like football where if you have the budget you can just go out and buy players to get you in the mix.
To be fair we've probably seen them change tack by sending their best GC rider to the Giro - bold move that very nearly got the win.
What I mean is in football you didn't need Messi or Ronaldo to win the league - it's far more of a team game.
In cycling you can build the best GC support team in the world but winning is hugely weighted towards having the best individual rider - if they are under contract tough luck. I don't think Ineos could just buy Vingegaard or Pogacar even if their budget was bigger than UAE or Jumbo Visma.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
I wonder just how much they're missing Kerrison? It did seem to go downhill a little once he left.andyp said:
A refresh of staff or riders?rick_chasey said:Maybe i'm talking sh!t, but does the team not need a bit of a refresh?
They were cutting edge stuff for a decade, but they seem fairly par for the course now.
I think they've done both to be honest, the sports director team is very different now than it was five years ago, Tim Kerrison has left so the performance team has changed and obviously Brailsford is not involved in the day to day management of the team any more.
The roster has changed a lot too, with more focus on young riders than before, with some success. I think talent spotting has become far more crucial now than it was in Sky's peak years, where they could just go and recruit the talent they needed. Now you have to get the next GC rider when he's in the u23 ranks and give him a long term contract and Ineos haven't achieved that. They missed out on Pogacar, Evenepoel (althought they were in for him) Ayuso and Vingegaard and those four look to be the GT winners of the next few seasons.
I think it's inevitable that a team will lose dominance, sport is cyclical by nature and all great teams invariably see a performance drop, irrespective of the sport.
Bernal's perhaps not the answer, even if he does get back to his best. His TT won't stand up against the current crop.
So what youngsters are they pinning their hopes on currently? Tarling, Sheffield, Plapp, Arensmen, L Hayter, Rodriguez. All decent TT'ers.
Will they go for Remco? Big risk.0
