Ineos Grenadiers
Comments
-
m.r.m. said:
Can the case not be made that Carapaz won 1 GT, by gaining an inordinate amount of time by being in a breakaway and being ignored by the GC favourites (at least that is how I remember it)? He lost the other Giro as a high favourite with the better team against Hindley (though Hindley did have Kämna on the biggest stage).RichN95. said:
He's also got Pinot = Caparazgethinceri said:Yes, Gaudu = Thomas is hilarious.
mrm must stand for Marc Ruddy Madiot
Pinot has done less, but if he were to continue riding and be motivated (also by me paying him 😉), would you be certain Carapaz would beat him every time? I'm not, so I kind of just smushed them together as talented riders who both won't win a GT again.
I'm hardly a fan of French WT team leadership, as I've repeatedly backed your criticism of it over the years with my enormous effort of pressing the like button. 😛
Carapaz has been on the podium of a Grand Tour in each of the previous four seasons. Of current cyclists only Pogacar and Froome have managed four consecutive seasons on a podium. The year before that he was fourth.
By contrast Pinot had one podium finish nine years ago, Since then he has had three top tens in twelve attempts.Twitter: @RichN952 -
Pog destroyed Vingegaard head to head in Paris Nice this year and even in the Tour it took him overreacting to Roglic' attacks for JV to drop him. He was dominant before that. The rest of the Tour was influenced by that stage and while it certainly may be the case that JV might have still beat him regardless, a weaker opponent wins occasionally against a superior one from time to time in all sports.Pross said:I’m finding Pog on his own in Tier 1 a challenge when he was beaten in the last GT he rode. It’s not like JV got a fluke win and he has looked good in races this season.
I’d have
Tier 1 (favourites in any GT they start) - Pog and JV, will be interesting to see what happens in this year’s Tour.
And people are always keen to count wins, Pog's palmares dwarfs JV's by a huge margin. Pog won two Tours almost by himself. JV needed the strongest team in the world to beat Pog. I don't think they are on the same level at this time. If JV wins again, that changes.
PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 20232 -
I suppose the most likely additions to that list would be Juan Ayuso and Carlos Rodriguez. Although so far this season, it doesn't look like this will happen in 2023.Pross said:I’m finding Pog on his own in Tier 1 a challenge when he was beaten in the last GT he rode. It’s not like JV got a fluke win and he has looked good in races this season.
Bernal at present sadly isn’t a Tier 3 and I have concerns he may never get back to that level let alone Tier 2.
I can see the argument for why you wouldn’t sign Thomas now as your main GC rider but if I had him in my team already and he was planning on another season I’d be re-signing him for his experience and as a back up.
I’d have
Tier 1 (favourites in any GT they start) - Pog and JV, will be interesting to see what happens in this year’s Tour.
Tier 2 (favourites in any GT the other 2 don’t start and outside bets if they do) - Roglic, Remco
Tier 3 (podium credentials and possible winners if none of the above finish) - Thomas, TGH, Almeida, Hindley
Beyond that are GC riders looking for a top 10 or most of the above not being present (so an outside bet for a podium at the Giro or Vuelta). Tier 1 will always start the Tour unless ill / injured. Anyone targeting the Giro is admitting they can’t win the Tour. If the Vuelta is your only GT target you are probably not even Tier 3."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Surely no team would pick Vingegaard over Pogacar given the direct choice of signing one or the other.1
-
I dunno, Vingers seems really well suited to winning the Tour specifically. Likes it hot and likes it high.kingstongraham said:Surely no team would pick Vingegaard over Pogacar given the direct choice of signing one or the other.
0 -
Ceteris paribus no, but if your sole target is the tour and signing JV leaves you enough budget to sign another credible contender, I'm swinging towards a maybe.kingstongraham said:Surely no team would pick Vingegaard over Pogacar given the direct choice of signing one or the other.
================================
Cake is just weakness entering the body0 -
Other than Vingegaard and Pogacar, who else do we think is a potential TdF winner in the future?0
-
-
Remco was 23 in January, which isn't actually all that young in elite sporting terms. Pog and Bernal had won three Tours between them before getting to 23.rick_chasey said:
Evenepoel is the real deal and he’s so young still.roscoe said:Other than Vingegaard and Pogacar, who else do we think is a potential TdF winner in the future?
He certainly has many talents and a lot of potential, but I think his status as a future TDF winner probably benefits from him never having ridden it to see how he compares against the established Big Dogs when they're going for it.
And historically, potential dominant Tour riders identified young tend to underperform - Ullrich and Bernal were going to dominate for a decade and Pog was supposedly unbeatable by mortal man.
Though to maintain balance, he has a 100% record of winning GTs that he finishes, which is non-trivially impressive.0 -
He's the nearest to Vingers and Pog. And he can TT better than both, right?wallace_and_gromit said:
Remco was 23 in January, which isn't actually all that young in elite sporting terms. Pog and Bernal had won three Tours between them before getting to 23.rick_chasey said:
Evenepoel is the real deal and he’s so young still.roscoe said:Other than Vingegaard and Pogacar, who else do we think is a potential TdF winner in the future?
He certainly has many talents and a lot of potential, but I think his status as a future TDF winner probably benefits from him never having ridden it to see how he compares against the established Big Dogs when they're going for it.
And historically, potential dominant Tour riders identified young tend to underperform - Ullrich and Bernal were going to dominate for a decade and Pog was supposedly unbeatable by mortal man.
Though to maintain balance, he has a 100% record of winning GTs that he finishes, which is non-trivially impressive.0 -
No but I'd still say they are in the same tier if we are talking about buying in a Tour contender.kingstongraham said:Surely no team would pick Vingegaard over Pogacar given the direct choice of signing one or the other.
Pogacar maybe just edges it but the real difference is that Pogacar also wins monuments - if we are just talking about buying a Tour contender it's hard to split them after what we saw last year.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]1 -
True.DeVlaeminck said:
No but I'd still say they are in the same tier if we are talking about buying in a Tour contender.kingstongraham said:Surely no team would pick Vingegaard over Pogacar given the direct choice of signing one or the other.
Pogacar maybe just edges it but the real difference is that Pogacar also wins monuments - if we are just talking about buying a Tour contender it's hard to split them after what we saw last year.
I'd only say that if they swapped teams in a hypothetical rerun of last year, Pog surely wins.0 -
He may be the nearest, but is he within seconds or minutes? We just don't know.rick_chasey said:
He's the nearest to Vingers and Pog. And he can TT better than both, right?wallace_and_gromit said:
Remco was 23 in January, which isn't actually all that young in elite sporting terms. Pog and Bernal had won three Tours between them before getting to 23.rick_chasey said:
Evenepoel is the real deal and he’s so young still.roscoe said:Other than Vingegaard and Pogacar, who else do we think is a potential TdF winner in the future?
He certainly has many talents and a lot of potential, but I think his status as a future TDF winner probably benefits from him never having ridden it to see how he compares against the established Big Dogs when they're going for it.
And historically, potential dominant Tour riders identified young tend to underperform - Ullrich and Bernal were going to dominate for a decade and Pog was supposedly unbeatable by mortal man.
Though to maintain balance, he has a 100% record of winning GTs that he finishes, which is non-trivially impressive.
Taking the "form line" relative to Arensmen, Remco beat him by 6 minutes in last year's Vuelta, which is pretty much the same margin that Thomas and Roglic had on Arensmen in this year's Giro. So one could argue that he is at a similar level to Thomas and Roglic, though with more potential to improve, given his age.
Doubtless other "form lines" can be found to tell a different story.
0 -
He'll be 24 before he rides another GT.rick_chasey said:
Evenepoel is the real deal and he’s so young still.roscoe said:Other than Vingegaard and Pogacar, who else do we think is a potential TdF winner in the future?
As I said up thread: 1 Vuelta win is his only success to date in races of one week or longer.
So, while we all think he's the real deal, imo he is yet to fulfill his potential. I would go as far as to say that in multi stage events, to date, he has significantly under achieved."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
I suspect that is largely down to QS not being able to manage GC contenders?blazing_saddles said:
He'll be 24 before he rides another GT.rick_chasey said:
Evenepoel is the real deal and he’s so young still.roscoe said:Other than Vingegaard and Pogacar, who else do we think is a potential TdF winner in the future?
As I said up thread: 1 Vuelta win is his only success to date in races of one week or longer.
So, while we all think he's the real deal, imo he is yet to fulfill his potential. I would go as far as to say that in multi stage events, to date, he has significantly under achieved.0 -
I'd agree - they don't have that much support outside the riders he took to the Giro, so swapping to ride e.g. the Vuelta instead requires all of them to replan as wellrick_chasey said:
I suspect that is largely down to QS not being able to manage GC contenders?blazing_saddles said:
He'll be 24 before he rides another GT.rick_chasey said:
Evenepoel is the real deal and he’s so young still.roscoe said:Other than Vingegaard and Pogacar, who else do we think is a potential TdF winner in the future?
As I said up thread: 1 Vuelta win is his only success to date in races of one week or longer.
So, while we all think he's the real deal, imo he is yet to fulfill his potential. I would go as far as to say that in multi stage events, to date, he has significantly under achieved.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Genuinely I think JV needs it hot and high as they are the two (relative) weaknesses of Pog and relatives strengths of JV.0
-
July is likely hot ....high is a problem . Only one stage over Loze seems to have genuine altitude.. they better make good on it . The tourmalet is too early to countrick_chasey said:Genuinely I think JV needs it hot and high as they are the two (relative) weaknesses of Pog and relatives strengths of JV.
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
I was going to say much the same, it's only really the stage to Courcheval over the Loze that takes the riders to high altitude in the Tour this year, most of the other mountain stages are low altitude, where the heat can be much more of a factor.0
-
Probably correct but is in contradiction with the opinion that the Giro was too back loaded.mididoctors said:
July is likely hot ....high is a problem . Only one stage over Loze seems to have genuine altitude.. they better make good on it . The tourmalet is too early to countrick_chasey said:Genuinely I think JV needs it hot and high as they are the two (relative) weaknesses of Pog and relatives strengths of JV.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
Given he has hardly ridden stage races during his career, what are you basing that on? A win in a stage race that you yourself deride as for alsorans? That's literally the only stage race success he's ever had.rick_chasey said:
He's the nearest to Vingers and Pog. And he can TT better than both, right?wallace_and_gromit said:
Remco was 23 in January, which isn't actually all that young in elite sporting terms. Pog and Bernal had won three Tours between them before getting to 23.rick_chasey said:
Evenepoel is the real deal and he’s so young still.roscoe said:Other than Vingegaard and Pogacar, who else do we think is a potential TdF winner in the future?
He certainly has many talents and a lot of potential, but I think his status as a future TDF winner probably benefits from him never having ridden it to see how he compares against the established Big Dogs when they're going for it.
And historically, potential dominant Tour riders identified young tend to underperform - Ullrich and Bernal were going to dominate for a decade and Pog was supposedly unbeatable by mortal man.
Though to maintain balance, he has a 100% record of winning GTs that he finishes, which is non-trivially impressive.0 -
You mean GTs, right? He's won a shed load of stage races at all levels - and he's won more than 50% of those he's finishedphreak said:
Given he has hardly ridden stage races during his career, what are you basing that on? A win in a stage race that you yourself deride as for alsorans? That's literally the only stage race success he's ever had.rick_chasey said:
He's the nearest to Vingers and Pog. And he can TT better than both, right?wallace_and_gromit said:
Remco was 23 in January, which isn't actually all that young in elite sporting terms. Pog and Bernal had won three Tours between them before getting to 23.rick_chasey said:
Evenepoel is the real deal and he’s so young still.roscoe said:Other than Vingegaard and Pogacar, who else do we think is a potential TdF winner in the future?
He certainly has many talents and a lot of potential, but I think his status as a future TDF winner probably benefits from him never having ridden it to see how he compares against the established Big Dogs when they're going for it.
And historically, potential dominant Tour riders identified young tend to underperform - Ullrich and Bernal were going to dominate for a decade and Pog was supposedly unbeatable by mortal man.
Though to maintain balance, he has a 100% record of winning GTs that he finishes, which is non-trivially impressive.Warning No formatter is installed for the format0 -
Poland and UAE aren't exactly box office amongst the WT stage races.0
-
Firstly, he's 23.phreak said:
Given he has hardly ridden stage races during his career, what are you basing that on? A win in a stage race that you yourself deride as for alsorans? That's literally the only stage race success he's ever had.
He's already been on multiple podiums for the worlds TT, he won the Tour de Suisse TT (beating a pretty heavyweight TT crowd), won 2 Giro TTs (one whilst positive for covid..!), 1 Vuelta TT and the vuelta overall and that's before his deeply impressive one day palmares.
If you can find a candidate who is closer to Pog and JV for GTs, I'm all ears but he's your next best bet.1 -
No-one's dissing Remco as a cyclist, but it's fair to question whether he has the very specialised attributes to challenge at the highest level in Grand Tours, which at the moment means being in the mix with Pog and JV. Prowess in TTs, one day races and one week stage races is not historically a great predictor of GT success. (Chris Boardman won a shed load of TTs and once came second in the Dauphine to Big Mig, for example.) Remco's Vuelta success means you wouldn't want to bet large sums against him if he was up against Pog and JV in the Tour, but you wouldn't want to bet much on him either.rick_chasey said:
Firstly, he's 23.phreak said:
Given he has hardly ridden stage races during his career, what are you basing that on? A win in a stage race that you yourself deride as for alsorans? That's literally the only stage race success he's ever had.
He's already been on multiple podiums for the worlds TT, he won the Tour de Suisse TT (beating a pretty heavyweight TT crowd), won 2 Giro TTs (one whilst positive for covid..!), 1 Vuelta TT and the vuelta overall and that's before his deeply impressive one day palmares.
If you can find a candidate who is closer to Pog and JV for GTs, I'm all ears but he's your next best bet.1 -
I agree, he was looking good. Big shame for the race that both of them went home.mididoctors said:
TGH would have won against remco is not a outlandish thoughtm.r.m. said:A way of looking at the list is that no one in tier 3 beats Remco in tier 2 for example. I would never choose Thomas over Remco in a GT regardless of parcours.
And yes occasionally a lower tier rider beats a higher tier one. That is due to multiple factors outside of just rider ability and one of the core reasons to watch sport.2 -
No, I mean stage races that are a) not included in our shit small races thread, and b) that have at least one of Pog, JV, or Roglic in them. If you have those criteria, it's literally the Vuelta and that's it.No_Ta_Doctor said:
You mean GTs, right? He's won a shed load of stage races at all levels - and he's won more than 50% of those he's finishedphreak said:
Given he has hardly ridden stage races during his career, what are you basing that on? A win in a stage race that you yourself deride as for alsorans? That's literally the only stage race success he's ever had.rick_chasey said:
He's the nearest to Vingers and Pog. And he can TT better than both, right?wallace_and_gromit said:
Remco was 23 in January, which isn't actually all that young in elite sporting terms. Pog and Bernal had won three Tours between them before getting to 23.rick_chasey said:
Evenepoel is the real deal and he’s so young still.roscoe said:Other than Vingegaard and Pogacar, who else do we think is a potential TdF winner in the future?
He certainly has many talents and a lot of potential, but I think his status as a future TDF winner probably benefits from him never having ridden it to see how he compares against the established Big Dogs when they're going for it.
And historically, potential dominant Tour riders identified young tend to underperform - Ullrich and Bernal were going to dominate for a decade and Pog was supposedly unbeatable by mortal man.
Though to maintain balance, he has a 100% record of winning GTs that he finishes, which is non-trivially impressive.
He might well be, but right now I'd say that's an absolutely huge if as he not only has never beaten Pog or JV in a stage race, but he's only actually raced against them in one once in his entire career. If you were being uncharitable you'd say he's avoiding them. It's not exactly the actions of the cocky young thing he's portrayed as.rick_chasey said:
Firstly, he's 23.phreak said:
Given he has hardly ridden stage races during his career, what are you basing that on? A win in a stage race that you yourself deride as for alsorans? That's literally the only stage race success he's ever had.
He's already been on multiple podiums for the worlds TT, he won the Tour de Suisse TT (beating a pretty heavyweight TT crowd), won 2 Giro TTs (one whilst positive for covid..!), 1 Vuelta TT and the vuelta overall and that's before his deeply impressive one day palmares.
If you can find a candidate who is closer to Pog and JV for GTs, I'm all ears but he's your next best bet.
0 -
Early in the stage toopblakeney said:
Probably correct but is in contradiction with the opinion that the Giro was too back loaded.mididoctors said:
July is likely hot ....high is a problem . Only one stage over Loze seems to have genuine altitude.. they better make good on it . The tourmalet is too early to countrick_chasey said:Genuinely I think JV needs it hot and high as they are the two (relative) weaknesses of Pog and relatives strengths of JV.
"If I was a 38 year old man, I definitely wouldn't be riding a bright yellow bike with Hello Kitty disc wheels, put it that way. What we're witnessing here is the world's most high profile mid-life crisis" Afx237vi Mon Jul 20, 2009 2:43 pm0 -
Yeah, though that was what I meant about QS not knowing what to do with GC contenders.phreak said:
No, I mean stage races that are a) not included in our censored small races thread, and b) that have at least one of Pog, JV, or Roglic in them. If you have those criteria, it's literally the Vuelta and that's it.No_Ta_Doctor said:
You mean GTs, right? He's won a shed load of stage races at all levels - and he's won more than 50% of those he's finishedphreak said:
Given he has hardly ridden stage races during his career, what are you basing that on? A win in a stage race that you yourself deride as for alsorans? That's literally the only stage race success he's ever had.rick_chasey said:
He's the nearest to Vingers and Pog. And he can TT better than both, right?wallace_and_gromit said:
Remco was 23 in January, which isn't actually all that young in elite sporting terms. Pog and Bernal had won three Tours between them before getting to 23.rick_chasey said:
Evenepoel is the real deal and he’s so young still.roscoe said:Other than Vingegaard and Pogacar, who else do we think is a potential TdF winner in the future?
He certainly has many talents and a lot of potential, but I think his status as a future TDF winner probably benefits from him never having ridden it to see how he compares against the established Big Dogs when they're going for it.
And historically, potential dominant Tour riders identified young tend to underperform - Ullrich and Bernal were going to dominate for a decade and Pog was supposedly unbeatable by mortal man.
Though to maintain balance, he has a 100% record of winning GTs that he finishes, which is non-trivially impressive.
He might well be, but right now I'd say that's an absolutely huge if as he not only has never beaten Pog or JV in a stage race, but he's only actually raced against them in one once in his entire career. If you were being uncharitable you'd say he's avoiding them. It's not exactly the actions of the cocky young thing he's portrayed as.rick_chasey said:
Firstly, he's 23.phreak said:
Given he has hardly ridden stage races during his career, what are you basing that on? A win in a stage race that you yourself deride as for alsorans? That's literally the only stage race success he's ever had.
He's already been on multiple podiums for the worlds TT, he won the Tour de Suisse TT (beating a pretty heavyweight TT crowd), won 2 Giro TTs (one whilst positive for covid..!), 1 Vuelta TT and the vuelta overall and that's before his deeply impressive one day palmares.
If you can find a candidate who is closer to Pog and JV for GTs, I'm all ears but he's your next best bet.
0
