The big Coronavirus thread

ballysmate

tailwindhome said:

It's amazing how often the police make arses of themselves on social media.

Is that not what social media is for? It is what most people use it for as far as I can tell.

kingstongraham

coopster_the_1st said:

focuszing723 said:

Pross said:

That's my thinking. If you don't know anyone who has had more than mild symptoms but at the same time you are in danger of losing your job / business then the shutdown will seem excessive. If you know of a lot of people who've been hospitalised, know people working on the frontline at an affected hospital or are in a busy city where people are still grouping together then the measures may not seem strong enough.

The only good thing about idiots breaking the guidelines (Kinnocks for example) is that if they do catch it they will then become immune, so can't spread it on. As long as enough people give the NHS and support services a fighting chance.

I have no issue with what Stephen Kinnock did and the reasons for doing it, possible his only error was posting it on Twitter.

I do have an issue with the way the police responded. If I was Stephen Kinnock I would have replied to the police message "F*ck off".The police needed to use common sense here and did not.

Agreed.

That article in the times is valid, and I share the concerns, which is why any extension of legal authority should be very temporary and need to be re-approved regularly.

This is someone getting a bit trigger happy with the social media account with no justification.

coopster_the_1st

tailwindhome said:

rick_chasey said:

The situation is so dire that staff are frequently breaking down in tears. As one physician wrote, “The utter failure of sound clinical leadership will lead to an absolute explosion of nosocomial COVID-19 infection.” Front-line staff are already contracting and dying from the disease.

My sister-in-law is a GP and is terrified by what's coming down the line.

Data out of Italy suggests that medical staff are at greater risk due to the nature of their exposure to the virus.

Yes, the front line medical staff are highly stressed and tired so their immune systems are likely to be compromised.

NHS staff need to be protected, even at the expense of the patients if needed. That's hard to accept but the front line NHS staff are the people who lives are worth more than their patients in this situation because if they are alive they can save more lives.

rick_chasey

You literally have the lancet saying the NHS is heading for a disaster and you're chatting about police on social meejda!

focuszing723

Easyjet have grounded their entire fleet now. They sure are unusual times.

DeVlaeminck

Re. Kinnock, just googled it, absolutely not the right thing for the police to get involved in. He delivered supplies to a 78 year old as we are told we are allowed to do.

focuszing723

rick_chasey said:

You literally have the lancet saying the NHS is heading for a disaster and you're chatting about police on social meejda!

Exactly, bizarre times.

nickice

Give it a rest Shortfall, your police state paranoia is getting boring now. It's public shaming to give the support services a chance to deal with the exceptional circumstances.

It's hardly paranoia. In France, I have to fill in a form to leave the house and there are only a few specific exceptions, the details of which have either been fleshed out on twitter or left up to the discretion of individual police officers. At the moment the power to make and enforce the rules has been largely left in the hands of the Executive. The police are enforcing these rules too. I've already been through two checkpoints. The initial fine for breach is 135 euros which is much higher for a second offence and, eventually, further offences can lead to imprisonment.

You can argue that the measures are necessary but every authoritarian states gives plausible reasons as to why certain measures are necessary.

TheBigBean

tailwindhome said:

rick_chasey said:

The situation is so dire that staff are frequently breaking down in tears. As one physician wrote, “The utter failure of sound clinical leadership will lead to an absolute explosion of nosocomial COVID-19 infection.” Front-line staff are already contracting and dying from the disease.

My sister-in-law is a GP and is terrified by what's coming down the line.

Data out of Italy suggests that medical staff are at greater risk due to the nature of their exposure to the virus.

What's wrong with the Chinese data showing the same thing? After all, the high profile youngish whistleblowing doctor died which was the last thing the state needed at the time.

Not a specific criticism of your sister-in-law, but one of the whole country.

The UK government is apparently miffed with China over its disclosure, and yet how anyone could look at China at the time and conclude it was a minor sniffle is beyond me.

kingstongraham

DeVlaeminck said:

Re. Kinnock, just googled it, absolutely not the right thing for the police to get involved in. He delivered supplies to a 78 year old as we are told we are allowed to do.

Counterpoint: he should have listened to this guy.

https://twitter.com/SKinnock/status/1242391393852686336?s=19

surrey_commuter

shortfall said:

focuszing723 said:

shortfall said:

focuszing723 said:

shortfall said:

focuszing723 said:

Pross said:

That's my thinking. If you don't know anyone who has had more than mild symptoms but at the same time you are in danger of losing your job / business then the shutdown will seem excessive. If you know of a lot of people who've been hospitalised, know people working on the frontline at an affected hospital or are in a busy city where people are still grouping together then the measures may not seem strong enough.

The only good thing about idiots breaking the guidelines (Kinnocks for example) is that if they do catch it they will then become immune, so can't spread it on. As long as enough people give the NHS and support services a fighting chance.

Do you remember the Police publicly shaming any actual criminals on Twitter before all this? No me neither.

Give it a rest Shortfall, your police state paranoia is getting boring now. It's public shaming to give the support services a chance to deal with the exceptional circumstances.

You obviously think former Supreme Court judge Jonathan Sumption who last week warned about a Police State emerging in an essay published in the Times is also paranoid? Funny that, I thought you lot were keen on experts. Maybe Cycleclinic had a point last week when he said this forum was hostile to opposing views. Let's see how the land lies in a few months.

I'm not being hostile, just stating fact. It doesn't matter what anyone posts, your complete agenda is to push it to a police state. That's it from me I won't be feeding another one of your paranoid gambits.

No my agenda is to question the efficacy of the lockdown and the wider implications that might have in terms of lives ruined and overall deaths and whether the assault on civil liberties is justified. Looks like most of you prefer the echo chamber though. Please put me on mute if you don't like me putting forward my dissenting views in a polite and calm manner.

I personally think the lockdown should have been done sooner and harder.

Where I do agree with you is that our system of Govt seems to rely on a series of unwritten conventions and understandings. Cummings ( I assume it is driven him) seems happy to exploit this to drive through whatever he wants.

When you look at the restrictions on Trump it seems amazing that in the UK a handful of people could decide our C19 strategy without even a hint of a debate.

Many natural Tories will not have a problem with this but they should as one day there will be a Govt they do not agree with who will be able to adopt a similar style of governing to get stuff done that would be too difficult going through the traditional processes.

tailwindhome

rick_chasey said:

You literally have the lancet saying the NHS is heading for a disaster and you're chatting about police on social meejda!

Settle petal.

People can talk about and think about more than one thing at a time.

elbowloh

Re. Kinnock, i'll hold my hands up and say we've done the same with the in-laws who are in their mid to late 70s. We've walked over there a couple of times as part of our daily exercise, dropped off food for them (or swapped items for things they had and we didn't) - leaving them on a table in the back garden and having a brief chat whilst they stood at the back door and we stood at the other end of the garden.

ballysmate

rick_chasey said:

You literally have the lancet saying the NHS is heading for a disaster and you're chatting about police on social meejda!

https://youtu.be/5Tr8qZCVxhA

rick_chasey

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52083998

The UK may not have all the ventilators it needs by the time coronavirus cases in the country reach their peak, engineering firms warned.

shortfall

nickice said:

Give it a rest Shortfall, your police state paranoia is getting boring now. It's public shaming to give the support services a chance to deal with the exceptional circumstances.

It's hardly paranoia. In France, I have to fill in a form to leave the house and there are only a few specific exceptions, the details of which have either been fleshed out on twitter or left up to the discretion of individual police officers. At the moment the power to make and enforce the rules has been largely left in the hands of the Executive. The police are enforcing these rules too. I've already been through two checkpoints. The initial fine for breach is 135 euros which is much higher for a second offence and, eventually, further offences can lead to imprisonment.

You can argue that the measures are necessary but every authoritarian states gives plausible reasons as to why certain measures are necessary.





Thank you.

coopster_the_1st

ballysmate said:

rick_chasey said:

You literally have the lancet saying the NHS is heading for a disaster and you're chatting about police on social meejda!

https://youtu.be/5Tr8qZCVxhA

Not just a like of this post but 100% agree.

Over the next few weeks many people are going to have to adopt this attitude for their own mental health and sanity.

tailwindhome

Belgian economy minister on moving out of lockdown

"Reopen schools first, hotel catering last"

Which makes sense to unwind in reverse order.

Means lockdown til Sept

Ties with the UK presser yesterday - 6 months to get back to normal

https://www.lecho.be/dossiers/coronavirus/rouvrir-les-ecoles-en-premier-l-horeca-en-dernier/10217567.html

pblakeney

When you have idiots driving to mingle on the beach and others holding mass parties you can see why a police state is required.
Stop acting like muppets, stop being treated as muppets.

kingstongraham

shortfall said:

nickice said:

Give it a rest Shortfall, your police state paranoia is getting boring now. It's public shaming to give the support services a chance to deal with the exceptional circumstances.

It's hardly paranoia. In France, I have to fill in a form to leave the house and there are only a few specific exceptions, the details of which have either been fleshed out on twitter or left up to the discretion of individual police officers. At the moment the power to make and enforce the rules has been largely left in the hands of the Executive. The police are enforcing these rules too. I've already been through two checkpoints. The initial fine for breach is 135 euros which is much higher for a second offence and, eventually, further offences can lead to imprisonment.

You can argue that the measures are necessary but every authoritarian states gives plausible reasons as to why certain measures are necessary.





Thank you.

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/brexit/legislation/coronavirus-bill-amended-time-limits-and-post-legislative-review/

This is a concern that has been raised. The original legislation was two years, I know the lib Dems wanted it to require renewal every 3 months.

As it stands, there will be a debate every 6 months to agree to its continuation. It still expires after 2 years.

nickice

pblakeney said:

When you have idiots driving to mingle on the beach and others holding mass parties you can see why a police state is required.
Stop acting like muppets, stop being treated as muppets.

It's no reason to implement some of the draconian measures that aren't evidence-based. That's the key: I haven't really seen any evidence for many of the French measures other than their claiming they're using the precautionary principle. I'm not against most of the measures but I don't like giving the police too much power and the rules are so vague that they probably wouldn't stand up in court.

ballysmate

nickice said:

pblakeney said:

When you have idiots driving to mingle on the beach and others holding mass parties you can see why a police state is required.
Stop acting like muppets, stop being treated as muppets.

It's no reason to implement some of the draconian measures that aren't evidence-based. That's the key: I haven't really seen any evidence for many of the French measures other than their claiming they're using the precautionary principle. I'm not against most of the measures but I don't like giving the police too much power and the rules are so vague that they probably wouldn't stand up in court.

Being a pedant, can I point out that if the rules wouldn't stand up in court, the police do not have the power.

tailwindhome

https://twitter.com/SkyNews/status/1244335950009970694?s=20

briantrumpet

It would help if the Labour Party would get on with electing a new leader, so that the Opposition could at least give impression of scrutinising the emergency powers being used. The only thing I've been aware of so far is Corbyn saying that the Tories have adopted his economic policies.

shortfall

kingstongraham said:

shortfall said:

focuszing723 said:

Pross said:

That's my thinking. If you don't know anyone who has had more than mild symptoms but at the same time you are in danger of losing your job / business then the shutdown will seem excessive. If you know of a lot of people who've been hospitalised, know people working on the frontline at an affected hospital or are in a busy city where people are still grouping together then the measures may not seem strong enough.

The only good thing about idiots breaking the guidelines (Kinnocks for example) is that if they do catch it they will then become immune, so can't spread it on. As long as enough people give the NHS and support services a fighting chance.

Do you remember the Police publicly shaming any actual criminals on Twitter before all this? No me neither.

https://twitter.com/DerbysPolice/status/1242783766885605377?s=19

Fair comment, I'm going to have to eat my words about that statement. However I think the substantial point stands that the Police are ill advised to start publicly shaming otherwise law abiding and upstanding people on social media.

nickice

ballysmate said:

nickice said:

pblakeney said:

When you have idiots driving to mingle on the beach and others holding mass parties you can see why a police state is required.
Stop acting like muppets, stop being treated as muppets.

It's no reason to implement some of the draconian measures that aren't evidence-based. That's the key: I haven't really seen any evidence for many of the French measures other than their claiming they're using the precautionary principle. I'm not against most of the measures but I don't like giving the police too much power and the rules are so vague that they probably wouldn't stand up in court.

Being a pedant, can I point out that if the rules wouldn't stand up in court, the police do not have the power.

If the police issue you with a fine, it's going to take a brave man to contest it at the moment. And there's no guarantee that a judge won't take their side meaning it might take months or years for you to win a case. That's not forgetting that you could potentially end up in prison.

briantrumpet

nickice said:

pblakeney said:

When you have idiots driving to mingle on the beach and others holding mass parties you can see why a police state is required.
Stop acting like muppets, stop being treated as muppets.

It's no reason to implement some of the draconian measures that aren't evidence-based. That's the key: I haven't really seen any evidence for many of the French measures other than their claiming they're using the precautionary principle. I'm not against most of the measures but I don't like giving the police too much power and the rules are so vague that they probably wouldn't stand up in court.

Had I been in my French place now, I'd have virtually been a prisoner, in a tiny hamlet several kilometres from the nearest town, surrounded by mountains. Half of me says that would be bonkers (and and it would be, on an individual level), but the other half of me realises that a necessarily hastily implemented law is going to apply to everyone, whether in the banlieues of Paris or a remote hamlet. And without visible enforcement of the law (they've had mobile checkpoints around the nearest town), there might as well not be any law. I imagine the daily 'derogation' forms are deliberately there to make everyone think about each journey - seeing the number of cars on Saturday trundling along my exercise route here in Devon, I did wonder how many of those were 'essential'.

Anyway, just as well I didn't go to France this time, as with EasyJet grounding its entire fleet, I'd have been struggling to get back to Devon. My straw poll of French correspondents is that that believe the restrictions to be necessary, albeit a PITA.

Pross

kingstongraham said:

DeVlaeminck said:

Re. Kinnock, just googled it, absolutely not the right thing for the police to get involved in. He delivered supplies to a 78 year old as we are told we are allowed to do.

Counterpoint: he should have listened to this guy.

https://twitter.com/SKinnock/status/1242391393852686336?s=19

Isn't it covered by item 1 or 3 on that list?

ballysmate

briantrumpet said:

nickice said:

pblakeney said:

When you have idiots driving to mingle on the beach and others holding mass parties you can see why a police state is required.
Stop acting like muppets, stop being treated as muppets.

It's no reason to implement some of the draconian measures that aren't evidence-based. That's the key: I haven't really seen any evidence for many of the French measures other than their claiming they're using the precautionary principle. I'm not against most of the measures but I don't like giving the police too much power and the rules are so vague that they probably wouldn't stand up in court.

seeing the number of cars on Saturday trundling along my exercise route here in Devon, I did wonder how many of those were 'essential'.

Convenience stores are still seeing people popping in for scratch cards, fags and the like. Same people coming in several times a day.

First.Aspect

If you make the rules as strict as they need to be, people will bend or break them and they would not achieve the required result.

If you make the rules stricter than they need to be, people will bend or break them but you may achieve the required result.