The big Coronavirus thread
Comments
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They could pay them on paper to all be working on replacing my extension roof and building me a new garden shed. It has much more value to me 😉rick_chasey said:If you can come up with a project that employs as many people that you could literally start today that is better then HS2 then I’m sure the govt would want to hear from you.
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Honestly, you lot shouldn’t be so critical of the government.
They’re only trying their best.
(😉)1 -
“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0
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Yeeees Rick I think most people agree with the general idea. Skip over your baffling support of HS2 why don't you.rick_chasey said:
Creating/keeping jobs in a depression > spending on debt. Especially when borrowing is so cheap.surrey_commuter said:
This only works if you place no negative value on the cost of the debt.rick_chasey said:
I get that but in a depression the most important thing is just someone spending money to get it all going again and you can’t trust individuals to do that since it wouldn’t be rational, so the govt has to step up. Hence “counter-cyclical”kingstongraham said:
Because it was already bad value, doesn't give great benefits, isn't ever going to go past Birmingham, and will mean that they will spend less on actually useful infrastructure projects. And now even the official projection has its value for money as "Poor".rick_chasey said:
Why is it incredible?kingstongraham said:
Even now, a month after this, HS2 is somehow far from being cancelled, it is being prioritised.rjsterry said:
I think this might just take priority over HS2. The nearest equivalent this country has seen was the outbreak of WW2. I would expect similar borrowing, expenditure and repayment over decades to get through it.surrey_commuter said:
The censored had already embarked on the largest ever fiscal expansion, so what are his options switch money from his bridge fund or borrow more?rjsterry said:
Expect that to increase.pblakeney said:I see that we have a war chest of 12 billion to fight the financial aspects of the virus.
Divide that by 66 million and it doesn’t go far.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293055
Incredible.
Counter cyclical spending on things like infrastructure is textbook stuff.
German rearmament was certainly not good value for money but it lifted Germany out of The Depression faster than any other nation, because they were just spending like mad.
Depressions are (mainly) demand side so you just gotta stimulate.
If you believe there is a cost to the debt then it will be paid in less spending on health, education and welfare
For the same reason most people agree with the gov’ts loan and furlough schemes.
The inconvenient part of the discussion from your point of view is that there is more than one way to spend money - either on something useful, like the Hoover Dam or the Bay Bridge, or something useless like the Humber Bridge.0 -
Is there another project which can start in the next month that is a better use of money but still keeps employment up?First.Aspect said:
Yeeees Rick I think most people agree with the general idea. Skip over your baffling support of HS2 why don't you.rick_chasey said:
Creating/keeping jobs in a depression > spending on debt. Especially when borrowing is so cheap.surrey_commuter said:
This only works if you place no negative value on the cost of the debt.rick_chasey said:
I get that but in a depression the most important thing is just someone spending money to get it all going again and you can’t trust individuals to do that since it wouldn’t be rational, so the govt has to step up. Hence “counter-cyclical”kingstongraham said:
Because it was already bad value, doesn't give great benefits, isn't ever going to go past Birmingham, and will mean that they will spend less on actually useful infrastructure projects. And now even the official projection has its value for money as "Poor".rick_chasey said:
Why is it incredible?kingstongraham said:
Even now, a month after this, HS2 is somehow far from being cancelled, it is being prioritised.rjsterry said:
I think this might just take priority over HS2. The nearest equivalent this country has seen was the outbreak of WW2. I would expect similar borrowing, expenditure and repayment over decades to get through it.surrey_commuter said:
The censored had already embarked on the largest ever fiscal expansion, so what are his options switch money from his bridge fund or borrow more?rjsterry said:
Expect that to increase.pblakeney said:I see that we have a war chest of 12 billion to fight the financial aspects of the virus.
Divide that by 66 million and it doesn’t go far.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293055
Incredible.
Counter cyclical spending on things like infrastructure is textbook stuff.
German rearmament was certainly not good value for money but it lifted Germany out of The Depression faster than any other nation, because they were just spending like mad.
Depressions are (mainly) demand side so you just gotta stimulate.
If you believe there is a cost to the debt then it will be paid in less spending on health, education and welfare
For the same reason most people agree with the gov’ts loan and furlough schemes.
The inconvenient part of the discussion from your point of view is that there is more than one way to spend money - either on something useful, like the Hoover Dam or the Bay Bridge, or something useless like the Humber Bridge.
I think we’d all like to know.
As per above the priority is spending the money and creating the jobs. Given HS2 is already underway it’s easy for it to do that.
If your better value project can’t get lots of jobs going from this month onwards it’s not meeting priority number one. If it can then let’s hear it. You could save the govt billions in value.
I would rather the govt spends on HS2 than nothing at this point.0 -
He didn't skip over it to be fair. His argument was that it is ready to go which might be a stretch.First.Aspect said:
Yeeees Rick I think most people agree with the general idea. Skip over your baffling support of HS2 why don't you.rick_chasey said:
Creating/keeping jobs in a depression > spending on debt. Especially when borrowing is so cheap.surrey_commuter said:
This only works if you place no negative value on the cost of the debt.rick_chasey said:
I get that but in a depression the most important thing is just someone spending money to get it all going again and you can’t trust individuals to do that since it wouldn’t be rational, so the govt has to step up. Hence “counter-cyclical”kingstongraham said:
Because it was already bad value, doesn't give great benefits, isn't ever going to go past Birmingham, and will mean that they will spend less on actually useful infrastructure projects. And now even the official projection has its value for money as "Poor".rick_chasey said:
Why is it incredible?kingstongraham said:
Even now, a month after this, HS2 is somehow far from being cancelled, it is being prioritised.rjsterry said:
I think this might just take priority over HS2. The nearest equivalent this country has seen was the outbreak of WW2. I would expect similar borrowing, expenditure and repayment over decades to get through it.surrey_commuter said:
The censored had already embarked on the largest ever fiscal expansion, so what are his options switch money from his bridge fund or borrow more?rjsterry said:
Expect that to increase.pblakeney said:I see that we have a war chest of 12 billion to fight the financial aspects of the virus.
Divide that by 66 million and it doesn’t go far.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293055
Incredible.
Counter cyclical spending on things like infrastructure is textbook stuff.
German rearmament was certainly not good value for money but it lifted Germany out of The Depression faster than any other nation, because they were just spending like mad.
Depressions are (mainly) demand side so you just gotta stimulate.
If you believe there is a cost to the debt then it will be paid in less spending on health, education and welfare
For the same reason most people agree with the gov’ts loan and furlough schemes.
The inconvenient part of the discussion from your point of view is that there is more than one way to spend money - either on something useful, like the Hoover Dam or the Bay Bridge, or something useless like the Humber Bridge.
We could spend the money on building another aircraft carrier and fleet of destroyers instead though as they are probably more ready to start.0 -
You're very trying Rick:)rick_chasey said:Honestly, you lot shouldn’t be so critical of the government.
They’re only trying their best.
(😉)0 -
Go for it. I suspect the train may be more additive long run but if it’s not why not.Pross said:
He didn't skip over it to be fair. His argument was that it is ready to go which might be a stretch.First.Aspect said:
Yeeees Rick I think most people agree with the general idea. Skip over your baffling support of HS2 why don't you.rick_chasey said:
Creating/keeping jobs in a depression > spending on debt. Especially when borrowing is so cheap.surrey_commuter said:
This only works if you place no negative value on the cost of the debt.rick_chasey said:
I get that but in a depression the most important thing is just someone spending money to get it all going again and you can’t trust individuals to do that since it wouldn’t be rational, so the govt has to step up. Hence “counter-cyclical”kingstongraham said:
Because it was already bad value, doesn't give great benefits, isn't ever going to go past Birmingham, and will mean that they will spend less on actually useful infrastructure projects. And now even the official projection has its value for money as "Poor".rick_chasey said:
Why is it incredible?kingstongraham said:
Even now, a month after this, HS2 is somehow far from being cancelled, it is being prioritised.rjsterry said:
I think this might just take priority over HS2. The nearest equivalent this country has seen was the outbreak of WW2. I would expect similar borrowing, expenditure and repayment over decades to get through it.surrey_commuter said:
The censored had already embarked on the largest ever fiscal expansion, so what are his options switch money from his bridge fund or borrow more?rjsterry said:
Expect that to increase.pblakeney said:I see that we have a war chest of 12 billion to fight the financial aspects of the virus.
Divide that by 66 million and it doesn’t go far.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293055
Incredible.
Counter cyclical spending on things like infrastructure is textbook stuff.
German rearmament was certainly not good value for money but it lifted Germany out of The Depression faster than any other nation, because they were just spending like mad.
Depressions are (mainly) demand side so you just gotta stimulate.
If you believe there is a cost to the debt then it will be paid in less spending on health, education and welfare
For the same reason most people agree with the gov’ts loan and furlough schemes.
The inconvenient part of the discussion from your point of view is that there is more than one way to spend money - either on something useful, like the Hoover Dam or the Bay Bridge, or something useless like the Humber Bridge.
We could spend the money on building another aircraft carrier and fleet of destroyers instead though as they are probably more ready to start.0 -
I don't have that power alas. If I did that roof of mine would be the priority!rick_chasey said:
Go for it. I suspect the train may be more additive long run but if it’s not why not.Pross said:
He didn't skip over it to be fair. His argument was that it is ready to go which might be a stretch.First.Aspect said:
Yeeees Rick I think most people agree with the general idea. Skip over your baffling support of HS2 why don't you.rick_chasey said:
Creating/keeping jobs in a depression > spending on debt. Especially when borrowing is so cheap.surrey_commuter said:
This only works if you place no negative value on the cost of the debt.rick_chasey said:
I get that but in a depression the most important thing is just someone spending money to get it all going again and you can’t trust individuals to do that since it wouldn’t be rational, so the govt has to step up. Hence “counter-cyclical”kingstongraham said:
Because it was already bad value, doesn't give great benefits, isn't ever going to go past Birmingham, and will mean that they will spend less on actually useful infrastructure projects. And now even the official projection has its value for money as "Poor".rick_chasey said:
Why is it incredible?kingstongraham said:
Even now, a month after this, HS2 is somehow far from being cancelled, it is being prioritised.rjsterry said:
I think this might just take priority over HS2. The nearest equivalent this country has seen was the outbreak of WW2. I would expect similar borrowing, expenditure and repayment over decades to get through it.surrey_commuter said:
The censored had already embarked on the largest ever fiscal expansion, so what are his options switch money from his bridge fund or borrow more?rjsterry said:
Expect that to increase.pblakeney said:I see that we have a war chest of 12 billion to fight the financial aspects of the virus.
Divide that by 66 million and it doesn’t go far.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293055
Incredible.
Counter cyclical spending on things like infrastructure is textbook stuff.
German rearmament was certainly not good value for money but it lifted Germany out of The Depression faster than any other nation, because they were just spending like mad.
Depressions are (mainly) demand side so you just gotta stimulate.
If you believe there is a cost to the debt then it will be paid in less spending on health, education and welfare
For the same reason most people agree with the gov’ts loan and furlough schemes.
The inconvenient part of the discussion from your point of view is that there is more than one way to spend money - either on something useful, like the Hoover Dam or the Bay Bridge, or something useless like the Humber Bridge.
We could spend the money on building another aircraft carrier and fleet of destroyers instead though as they are probably more ready to start.0 -
I gave you an example. The internet connectivity in this country is lamentable. I live 12 miles from the centre of a capital city and we barely have a 3g signal.rick_chasey said:
Is there another project which can start in the next month that is a better use of money but still keeps employment up?First.Aspect said:
Yeeees Rick I think most people agree with the general idea. Skip over your baffling support of HS2 why don't you.rick_chasey said:
Creating/keeping jobs in a depression > spending on debt. Especially when borrowing is so cheap.surrey_commuter said:
This only works if you place no negative value on the cost of the debt.rick_chasey said:
I get that but in a depression the most important thing is just someone spending money to get it all going again and you can’t trust individuals to do that since it wouldn’t be rational, so the govt has to step up. Hence “counter-cyclical”kingstongraham said:
Because it was already bad value, doesn't give great benefits, isn't ever going to go past Birmingham, and will mean that they will spend less on actually useful infrastructure projects. And now even the official projection has its value for money as "Poor".rick_chasey said:
Why is it incredible?kingstongraham said:
Even now, a month after this, HS2 is somehow far from being cancelled, it is being prioritised.rjsterry said:
I think this might just take priority over HS2. The nearest equivalent this country has seen was the outbreak of WW2. I would expect similar borrowing, expenditure and repayment over decades to get through it.surrey_commuter said:
The censored had already embarked on the largest ever fiscal expansion, so what are his options switch money from his bridge fund or borrow more?rjsterry said:
Expect that to increase.pblakeney said:I see that we have a war chest of 12 billion to fight the financial aspects of the virus.
Divide that by 66 million and it doesn’t go far.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293055
Incredible.
Counter cyclical spending on things like infrastructure is textbook stuff.
German rearmament was certainly not good value for money but it lifted Germany out of The Depression faster than any other nation, because they were just spending like mad.
Depressions are (mainly) demand side so you just gotta stimulate.
If you believe there is a cost to the debt then it will be paid in less spending on health, education and welfare
For the same reason most people agree with the gov’ts loan and furlough schemes.
The inconvenient part of the discussion from your point of view is that there is more than one way to spend money - either on something useful, like the Hoover Dam or the Bay Bridge, or something useless like the Humber Bridge.
I think we’d all like to know.
As per above the priority is spending the money and creating the jobs. Given HS2 is already underway it’s easy for it to do that.
If your better value project can’t get lots of jobs going from this month onwards it’s not meeting priority number one. If it can then let’s hear it. You could save the govt billions in value.
I would rather the govt spends on HS2 than nothing at this point.
Our digital infrastructure is behind where it was in Iceland 10 years ago. It is pathetic but "too expensive" to fix.
Seems increasingly to me that spending hundreds of billions on moving people to and from their jobs is not as good value as moving their jobs to them.
Or how about investing in national grid infrastructure that can cope with all the electric vehicle charging that will be required as a result of another policy they've picked out of Boris's arse?
Or housing. Pretty sure we could do with building some of that.
Hospitals not built out of balsa wood in exhibition centres, or mortgaged at scandalous rates to be paid to private industry's fat coffers for the end of time, that might be more to the nation's taste just now.
Want me to go on?
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PPE manufacturing and isolation facilities for Covid patients from care homes are just two that spring to mind.rick_chasey said:
Is there another project which can start in the next month that is a better use of money but still keeps employment up?First.Aspect said:
Yeeees Rick I think most people agree with the general idea. Skip over your baffling support of HS2 why don't you.rick_chasey said:
Creating/keeping jobs in a depression > spending on debt. Especially when borrowing is so cheap.surrey_commuter said:
This only works if you place no negative value on the cost of the debt.rick_chasey said:
I get that but in a depression the most important thing is just someone spending money to get it all going again and you can’t trust individuals to do that since it wouldn’t be rational, so the govt has to step up. Hence “counter-cyclical”kingstongraham said:
Because it was already bad value, doesn't give great benefits, isn't ever going to go past Birmingham, and will mean that they will spend less on actually useful infrastructure projects. And now even the official projection has its value for money as "Poor".rick_chasey said:
Why is it incredible?kingstongraham said:
Even now, a month after this, HS2 is somehow far from being cancelled, it is being prioritised.rjsterry said:
I think this might just take priority over HS2. The nearest equivalent this country has seen was the outbreak of WW2. I would expect similar borrowing, expenditure and repayment over decades to get through it.surrey_commuter said:
The censored had already embarked on the largest ever fiscal expansion, so what are his options switch money from his bridge fund or borrow more?rjsterry said:
Expect that to increase.pblakeney said:I see that we have a war chest of 12 billion to fight the financial aspects of the virus.
Divide that by 66 million and it doesn’t go far.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293055
Incredible.
Counter cyclical spending on things like infrastructure is textbook stuff.
German rearmament was certainly not good value for money but it lifted Germany out of The Depression faster than any other nation, because they were just spending like mad.
Depressions are (mainly) demand side so you just gotta stimulate.
If you believe there is a cost to the debt then it will be paid in less spending on health, education and welfare
For the same reason most people agree with the gov’ts loan and furlough schemes.
The inconvenient part of the discussion from your point of view is that there is more than one way to spend money - either on something useful, like the Hoover Dam or the Bay Bridge, or something useless like the Humber Bridge.
I think we’d all like to know.
Two short term projects that would require significant resources and reap direct benefits.
Also would need care home testing. I'd argue in favour of this testing as there is a direct and quantifiable action and hopefully a benefit from the outcome.
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It's not secondary if the aim is to get money out there. This is overpriced, long term and not going to do what it is supposed to. They haven't even tried to model any behaviour change from this crisis in their demand forecasts.rick_chasey said:So Keynes made the famous quote “get the government to pay people to dig holes and fill them up again”.
Deliberately of course, so people would reply like some on here are that they better spend it on more productive things.
To which he says “fine, just spend the money as long as they are creating jobs.”
That is the point. What you spend it on is a secondary order of thought. HS2 is already planned out and good to go. It makes sense to crack on with it rather than wait 10 years for studies into what else.
As long as the spending is happening, and jobs are being created/kept.
Fix the roads while they aren't busy, fix the bridges expensively, build some prisons now, build those hospitals that were promised. Give people money maybe.
HS2 is going to be going on for the next 20 years, and all they are doing now is spending some, so they can get to the point at which it really is more expensive to cancel than continue. No way are we anywhere near that point yet.0 -
Do it all I’m all for it. You think the planning stages would take weeks or months and not years?First.Aspect said:
I gave you an example. The internet connectivity in this country is lamentable. I live 12 miles from the centre of a capital city and we barely have a 3g signal.rick_chasey said:
Is there another project which can start in the next month that is a better use of money but still keeps employment up?First.Aspect said:
Yeeees Rick I think most people agree with the general idea. Skip over your baffling support of HS2 why don't you.rick_chasey said:
Creating/keeping jobs in a depression > spending on debt. Especially when borrowing is so cheap.surrey_commuter said:
This only works if you place no negative value on the cost of the debt.rick_chasey said:
I get that but in a depression the most important thing is just someone spending money to get it all going again and you can’t trust individuals to do that since it wouldn’t be rational, so the govt has to step up. Hence “counter-cyclical”kingstongraham said:
Because it was already bad value, doesn't give great benefits, isn't ever going to go past Birmingham, and will mean that they will spend less on actually useful infrastructure projects. And now even the official projection has its value for money as "Poor".rick_chasey said:
Why is it incredible?kingstongraham said:
Even now, a month after this, HS2 is somehow far from being cancelled, it is being prioritised.rjsterry said:
I think this might just take priority over HS2. The nearest equivalent this country has seen was the outbreak of WW2. I would expect similar borrowing, expenditure and repayment over decades to get through it.surrey_commuter said:
The censored had already embarked on the largest ever fiscal expansion, so what are his options switch money from his bridge fund or borrow more?rjsterry said:
Expect that to increase.pblakeney said:I see that we have a war chest of 12 billion to fight the financial aspects of the virus.
Divide that by 66 million and it doesn’t go far.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293055
Incredible.
Counter cyclical spending on things like infrastructure is textbook stuff.
German rearmament was certainly not good value for money but it lifted Germany out of The Depression faster than any other nation, because they were just spending like mad.
Depressions are (mainly) demand side so you just gotta stimulate.
If you believe there is a cost to the debt then it will be paid in less spending on health, education and welfare
For the same reason most people agree with the gov’ts loan and furlough schemes.
The inconvenient part of the discussion from your point of view is that there is more than one way to spend money - either on something useful, like the Hoover Dam or the Bay Bridge, or something useless like the Humber Bridge.
I think we’d all like to know.
As per above the priority is spending the money and creating the jobs. Given HS2 is already underway it’s easy for it to do that.
If your better value project can’t get lots of jobs going from this month onwards it’s not meeting priority number one. If it can then let’s hear it. You could save the govt billions in value.
I would rather the govt spends on HS2 than nothing at this point.
Our digital infrastructure is behind where it was in Iceland 10 years ago. It is pathetic but "too expensive" to fix.
Seems increasingly to me that spending hundreds of billions on moving people to and from their jobs is not as good value as moving their jobs to them.
Or how about investing in national grid infrastructure that can cope with all the electric vehicle charging that will be required as a result of another policy they've picked out of Boris's censored ?
Or housing. Pretty sure we could do with building some of that.
Hospitals not built out of balsa wood in exhibition centres, or mortgaged at scandalous rates to be paid to private industry's fat coffers for the end of time, that might be more to the nation's taste just now.
Want me to go on?0 -
Long distance/intercity, the fact remains that it allows more commuting capacity, which would be a benefit for Manchester and Birmingham as well as London.First.Aspect said:
I disagree with the direction, not the principle. HS2 is an exercise in enhancing centralisation of the UK economy for the benefit of what is already the richest most heavily invested-in and infrastructure-laden region of the country.rick_chasey said:
Not a Keynes man, I take it.First.Aspect said:
Yes. For example I can immediately see that stimulating the economy by building a white elephant isn't the way to go.rick_chasey said:Yeah sorry First, you operate on a higher plane to me.
Canals, we need more canals. Much better than moving goods by pack horse. Lots of navvies would get jobs in the meantime.
It is laughable that someone on here thinks that London to Birmingham is "long distance" rail travel. It is not even long distance in England.
Buy a map and a ruler.
It is also literally incorrect that it would take more to cancel. If you think that less than 10% is more than half, you are looking at a logarithmic scale.
I imagine a lot of contracts have been signed that would include some fairly hefty penalty clauses for the government if they were to cancel HS2 now.
I do think HS2 is a good example of our system of Govt producing some very non optimal outcomes, but there is very little that we can do about that.0 -
Can you show us an example on this thread?rick_chasey said:
I don’t put everything at the door of the govt."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
The furlough scheme was extended by a month to the end of June - announced yesterday.surrey_commuter said:
Surely enriching furlough would be more effective counter cyclical spending, or on keeping small businesses afloat."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
+1morstar said:
I get it, I really do. I just think there is an enormous point that this assertion misses.kingstongraham said:https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/17/political-imagination-end-lockdown-mass-testing-contact-tracing
We need censored loads of tests.
You are still only suppressing the virus with no actual solution to the problem.
Assume we do this and get rid of the virus in UK. It still exists and is circulating in the world. Nothing moves on until a vaccine as we are all still exposed. If the vaccine never comes, people will continue to die in the UK.
The consistent point you have made well is that testing buys time.
This is the calculated gamble. Buying time buys the opportunity for improved treatments and the increasing likelihood of a vaccine.
The counter argument is that you are trading hope of one or both of these happening against actual social, economic and non-covid health damage.
The testing and isolating approach is as big a gamble as herd immunity. It appeals because the short terms advantages appear quantifiable.
And then there's Luxembourg (+others). More than twice the German testing and 2.4 times the mortality.
To be clear, I'm not arguing we should not test. I'm arguing there is a scientific debate to be had (was had) by decision makers I don't envy one bit. An un-nuanced test, test, test argument absolutely has an emotional element to it which doesn't give it validity.
The PPE is the quantifiable problem we lay people should 100% not accepting and be shaking the money tree at.
I have argued similar line on festing up thread."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Why?Stevo_666 said:
Can you show us an example on this thread?rick_chasey said:
I don’t put everything at the door of the govt.
The state in the U.K. runs the health service and is entirely responsible for the public health interventions in relation to a pandemic, so they are uniquely accountable to how a nation fares during a pandemic.
Would have thought you of all people understand the perils of state planning and decision making? It is so highly dependent on competent decision making.
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Why? Because you said that you didn't put everything at the door of this government. I can't see any evidence of that, so I'm asking you for an example.rick_chasey said:
Why?Stevo_666 said:
Can you show us an example on this thread?rick_chasey said:
I don’t put everything at the door of the govt.
The state in the U.K. runs the health service and is entirely responsible for the public health interventions in relation to a pandemic, so they are uniquely accountable to how a nation fares during a pandemic.
Would have thought you of all people understand the perils of state planning and decision making? It is so highly dependent on competent decision making.
Simple."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Roads. Fix the effin' roads.
No planning, design or approval required. Just effin' do it.
Any planned maintenance/upgrades on hospitals, schools etc. Do that before Westminster.
Railways. Replace old rolling stock and fix what exists. Extend platforms, increase carriages.
The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
I am not sure. You have no chance.Veronese68 wrote:PB is the most sensible person on here.0 -
It’s not the gov’ts fault that there is a pandemic.
This thread though: another example of this cabinet’s appalling ability to do anything good when it come to the actual health bit.
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The last reported direct cost of cancellation was £12bn on top of £7.5bn already spent. That was back in January before C19 was being considered. That's obviously less than the projected final cost, but the point is that would be the best part of £20bn for nothing as opposed to £100bn of something which has some asset value and at least stands a chance of generating some revenue.surrey_commuter said:
Genuine question - why is it more expensive to cancel?rjsterry said:
Because HS2 has already started being built. They've CPed the land. Demolished buildings. It's past the point of being more expensive to cancel than go forward. Plus Johnson loves a bit of transport infrastructure so I think this train has left the station.focuszing723 said:
That couldn't be a better analogy for me. The time HS2 is complete, for all we know the fast lane could turn into a 10 metre apart autonomous vehicle congestion buster.First.Aspect said:
Yes. For example I can immediately see that stimulating the economy by building a white elephant isn't the way to go.rick_chasey said:Yeah sorry First, you operate on a higher plane to me.
Canals, we need more canals. Much better than moving goods by pack horse. Lots of navvies would get jobs in the meantime.
Why not put the money into smaller projects dispersed around the country as already mentioned.
I always think the snake oil purveyors of these pet projects rush to get to this mythical point
1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
It's been going for several years. The decision earlier this year was to keep going, not to start.Pross said:
He didn't skip over it to be fair. His argument was that it is ready to go which might be a stretch.First.Aspect said:
Yeeees Rick I think most people agree with the general idea. Skip over your baffling support of HS2 why don't you.rick_chasey said:
Creating/keeping jobs in a depression > spending on debt. Especially when borrowing is so cheap.surrey_commuter said:
This only works if you place no negative value on the cost of the debt.rick_chasey said:
I get that but in a depression the most important thing is just someone spending money to get it all going again and you can’t trust individuals to do that since it wouldn’t be rational, so the govt has to step up. Hence “counter-cyclical”kingstongraham said:
Because it was already bad value, doesn't give great benefits, isn't ever going to go past Birmingham, and will mean that they will spend less on actually useful infrastructure projects. And now even the official projection has its value for money as "Poor".rick_chasey said:
Why is it incredible?kingstongraham said:
Even now, a month after this, HS2 is somehow far from being cancelled, it is being prioritised.rjsterry said:
I think this might just take priority over HS2. The nearest equivalent this country has seen was the outbreak of WW2. I would expect similar borrowing, expenditure and repayment over decades to get through it.surrey_commuter said:
The censored had already embarked on the largest ever fiscal expansion, so what are his options switch money from his bridge fund or borrow more?rjsterry said:
Expect that to increase.pblakeney said:I see that we have a war chest of 12 billion to fight the financial aspects of the virus.
Divide that by 66 million and it doesn’t go far.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293055
Incredible.
Counter cyclical spending on things like infrastructure is textbook stuff.
German rearmament was certainly not good value for money but it lifted Germany out of The Depression faster than any other nation, because they were just spending like mad.
Depressions are (mainly) demand side so you just gotta stimulate.
If you believe there is a cost to the debt then it will be paid in less spending on health, education and welfare
For the same reason most people agree with the gov’ts loan and furlough schemes.
The inconvenient part of the discussion from your point of view is that there is more than one way to spend money - either on something useful, like the Hoover Dam or the Bay Bridge, or something useless like the Humber Bridge.
We could spend the money on building another aircraft carrier and fleet of destroyers instead though as they are probably more ready to start.1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
Pinnacle Monzonite
Part of the anti-growth coalition0 -
Yes, because HS2 will be much faster.rick_chasey said:
Do it all I’m all for it. You think the planning stages would take weeks or months and not years?First.Aspect said:
I gave you an example. The internet connectivity in this country is lamentable. I live 12 miles from the centre of a capital city and we barely have a 3g signal.rick_chasey said:
Is there another project which can start in the next month that is a better use of money but still keeps employment up?First.Aspect said:
Yeeees Rick I think most people agree with the general idea. Skip over your baffling support of HS2 why don't you.rick_chasey said:
Creating/keeping jobs in a depression > spending on debt. Especially when borrowing is so cheap.surrey_commuter said:
This only works if you place no negative value on the cost of the debt.rick_chasey said:
I get that but in a depression the most important thing is just someone spending money to get it all going again and you can’t trust individuals to do that since it wouldn’t be rational, so the govt has to step up. Hence “counter-cyclical”kingstongraham said:
Because it was already bad value, doesn't give great benefits, isn't ever going to go past Birmingham, and will mean that they will spend less on actually useful infrastructure projects. And now even the official projection has its value for money as "Poor".rick_chasey said:
Why is it incredible?kingstongraham said:
Even now, a month after this, HS2 is somehow far from being cancelled, it is being prioritised.rjsterry said:
I think this might just take priority over HS2. The nearest equivalent this country has seen was the outbreak of WW2. I would expect similar borrowing, expenditure and repayment over decades to get through it.surrey_commuter said:
The censored had already embarked on the largest ever fiscal expansion, so what are his options switch money from his bridge fund or borrow more?rjsterry said:
Expect that to increase.pblakeney said:I see that we have a war chest of 12 billion to fight the financial aspects of the virus.
Divide that by 66 million and it doesn’t go far.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293055
Incredible.
Counter cyclical spending on things like infrastructure is textbook stuff.
German rearmament was certainly not good value for money but it lifted Germany out of The Depression faster than any other nation, because they were just spending like mad.
Depressions are (mainly) demand side so you just gotta stimulate.
If you believe there is a cost to the debt then it will be paid in less spending on health, education and welfare
For the same reason most people agree with the gov’ts loan and furlough schemes.
The inconvenient part of the discussion from your point of view is that there is more than one way to spend money - either on something useful, like the Hoover Dam or the Bay Bridge, or something useless like the Humber Bridge.
I think we’d all like to know.
As per above the priority is spending the money and creating the jobs. Given HS2 is already underway it’s easy for it to do that.
If your better value project can’t get lots of jobs going from this month onwards it’s not meeting priority number one. If it can then let’s hear it. You could save the govt billions in value.
I would rather the govt spends on HS2 than nothing at this point.
Our digital infrastructure is behind where it was in Iceland 10 years ago. It is pathetic but "too expensive" to fix.
Seems increasingly to me that spending hundreds of billions on moving people to and from their jobs is not as good value as moving their jobs to them.
Or how about investing in national grid infrastructure that can cope with all the electric vehicle charging that will be required as a result of another policy they've picked out of Boris's censored ?
Or housing. Pretty sure we could do with building some of that.
Hospitals not built out of balsa wood in exhibition centres, or mortgaged at scandalous rates to be paid to private industry's fat coffers for the end of time, that might be more to the nation's taste just now.
Want me to go on?
None of what I've said would need additional planning that would take longer than actually getting on with what they can do now.
Are you in favour of a bridge to Northern Ireland, as well by the way? Or a tunnel?0 -
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I’ll stick to projects that can actually happen.First.Aspect said:
Yes, because HS2 will be much faster.rick_chasey said:
Do it all I’m all for it. You think the planning stages would take weeks or months and not years?First.Aspect said:
I gave you an example. The internet connectivity in this country is lamentable. I live 12 miles from the centre of a capital city and we barely have a 3g signal.rick_chasey said:
Is there another project which can start in the next month that is a better use of money but still keeps employment up?First.Aspect said:
Yeeees Rick I think most people agree with the general idea. Skip over your baffling support of HS2 why don't you.rick_chasey said:
Creating/keeping jobs in a depression > spending on debt. Especially when borrowing is so cheap.surrey_commuter said:
This only works if you place no negative value on the cost of the debt.rick_chasey said:
I get that but in a depression the most important thing is just someone spending money to get it all going again and you can’t trust individuals to do that since it wouldn’t be rational, so the govt has to step up. Hence “counter-cyclical”kingstongraham said:
Because it was already bad value, doesn't give great benefits, isn't ever going to go past Birmingham, and will mean that they will spend less on actually useful infrastructure projects. And now even the official projection has its value for money as "Poor".rick_chasey said:
Why is it incredible?kingstongraham said:
Even now, a month after this, HS2 is somehow far from being cancelled, it is being prioritised.rjsterry said:
I think this might just take priority over HS2. The nearest equivalent this country has seen was the outbreak of WW2. I would expect similar borrowing, expenditure and repayment over decades to get through it.surrey_commuter said:
The censored had already embarked on the largest ever fiscal expansion, so what are his options switch money from his bridge fund or borrow more?rjsterry said:
Expect that to increase.pblakeney said:I see that we have a war chest of 12 billion to fight the financial aspects of the virus.
Divide that by 66 million and it doesn’t go far.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293055
Incredible.
Counter cyclical spending on things like infrastructure is textbook stuff.
German rearmament was certainly not good value for money but it lifted Germany out of The Depression faster than any other nation, because they were just spending like mad.
Depressions are (mainly) demand side so you just gotta stimulate.
If you believe there is a cost to the debt then it will be paid in less spending on health, education and welfare
For the same reason most people agree with the gov’ts loan and furlough schemes.
The inconvenient part of the discussion from your point of view is that there is more than one way to spend money - either on something useful, like the Hoover Dam or the Bay Bridge, or something useless like the Humber Bridge.
I think we’d all like to know.
As per above the priority is spending the money and creating the jobs. Given HS2 is already underway it’s easy for it to do that.
If your better value project can’t get lots of jobs going from this month onwards it’s not meeting priority number one. If it can then let’s hear it. You could save the govt billions in value.
I would rather the govt spends on HS2 than nothing at this point.
Our digital infrastructure is behind where it was in Iceland 10 years ago. It is pathetic but "too expensive" to fix.
Seems increasingly to me that spending hundreds of billions on moving people to and from their jobs is not as good value as moving their jobs to them.
Or how about investing in national grid infrastructure that can cope with all the electric vehicle charging that will be required as a result of another policy they've picked out of Boris's censored ?
Or housing. Pretty sure we could do with building some of that.
Hospitals not built out of balsa wood in exhibition centres, or mortgaged at scandalous rates to be paid to private industry's fat coffers for the end of time, that might be more to the nation's taste just now.
Want me to go on?
None of what I've said would need additional planning that would take longer than actually getting on with what they can do now.
Are you in favour of a bridge to Northern Ireland, as well by the way? Or a tunnel?
We’re in fairly extreme times - who would have thought we’d be ok with the govt paying people 80% of their wage to sit on their @rse and not work??0 -
I took ready to mean we can go out to tender ready to start building the tracks. Yes, there has been some work going on for years and my old company was doing some SI work though it seemed very stop / start.rjsterry said:
It's been going for several years. The decision earlier this year was to keep going, not to start.Pross said:
He didn't skip over it to be fair. His argument was that it is ready to go which might be a stretch.First.Aspect said:
Yeeees Rick I think most people agree with the general idea. Skip over your baffling support of HS2 why don't you.rick_chasey said:
Creating/keeping jobs in a depression > spending on debt. Especially when borrowing is so cheap.surrey_commuter said:
This only works if you place no negative value on the cost of the debt.rick_chasey said:
I get that but in a depression the most important thing is just someone spending money to get it all going again and you can’t trust individuals to do that since it wouldn’t be rational, so the govt has to step up. Hence “counter-cyclical”kingstongraham said:
Because it was already bad value, doesn't give great benefits, isn't ever going to go past Birmingham, and will mean that they will spend less on actually useful infrastructure projects. And now even the official projection has its value for money as "Poor".rick_chasey said:
Why is it incredible?kingstongraham said:
Even now, a month after this, HS2 is somehow far from being cancelled, it is being prioritised.rjsterry said:
I think this might just take priority over HS2. The nearest equivalent this country has seen was the outbreak of WW2. I would expect similar borrowing, expenditure and repayment over decades to get through it.surrey_commuter said:
The censored had already embarked on the largest ever fiscal expansion, so what are his options switch money from his bridge fund or borrow more?rjsterry said:
Expect that to increase.pblakeney said:I see that we have a war chest of 12 billion to fight the financial aspects of the virus.
Divide that by 66 million and it doesn’t go far.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-52293055
Incredible.
Counter cyclical spending on things like infrastructure is textbook stuff.
German rearmament was certainly not good value for money but it lifted Germany out of The Depression faster than any other nation, because they were just spending like mad.
Depressions are (mainly) demand side so you just gotta stimulate.
If you believe there is a cost to the debt then it will be paid in less spending on health, education and welfare
For the same reason most people agree with the gov’ts loan and furlough schemes.
The inconvenient part of the discussion from your point of view is that there is more than one way to spend money - either on something useful, like the Hoover Dam or the Bay Bridge, or something useless like the Humber Bridge.
We could spend the money on building another aircraft carrier and fleet of destroyers instead though as they are probably more ready to start.0 -
This just smacks of being in a hole, furiously digging.rjsterry said:
The last reported direct cost of cancellation was £12bn on top of £7.5bn already spent. That was back in January before C19 was being considered. That's obviously less than the projected final cost, but the point is that would be the best part of £20bn for nothing as opposed to £100bn of something which has some asset value and at least stands a chance of generating some revenue.surrey_commuter said:
Genuine question - why is it more expensive to cancel?rjsterry said:
Because HS2 has already started being built. They've CPed the land. Demolished buildings. It's past the point of being more expensive to cancel than go forward. Plus Johnson loves a bit of transport infrastructure so I think this train has left the station.focuszing723 said:
That couldn't be a better analogy for me. The time HS2 is complete, for all we know the fast lane could turn into a 10 metre apart autonomous vehicle congestion buster.First.Aspect said:
Yes. For example I can immediately see that stimulating the economy by building a white elephant isn't the way to go.rick_chasey said:Yeah sorry First, you operate on a higher plane to me.
Canals, we need more canals. Much better than moving goods by pack horse. Lots of navvies would get jobs in the meantime.
Why not put the money into smaller projects dispersed around the country as already mentioned.
I always think the snake oil purveyors of these pet projects rush to get to this mythical point
What are the odds of there being electric regional aeroplanes by the time it is finished, rendering it an instant Caledonian Canal?
Okay, not realistic for the important line between Birmingham and London that will drive property prices up in the Midlands and save commuters 8 minutes a day, but for more remote routes such as to, say Manchester, Leeds or Glasgow, high speed rail for the UK will be obsolete before it is built.
Out of curiosity, what is the value of the land that the government now owns, and is it factored into those figures? Are the other potential land uses factored in? Or do those figures just assume that the government would shrug its shoulders and turn all the land over to grazing?
0 -
Thats a start. I read that as 'the pandemic is not their fault (because only a raving lunatic would claIm that), but pretty much everything else is."rick_chasey said:It’s not the gov’ts fault that there is a pandemic.
This thread though: another example of this cabinet’s appalling ability to do anything good when it come to the actual health bit."I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]0 -
Well what about the state run health service or wider government response is not the government’s fault?Stevo_666 said:
Thats a start. I read that as 'the pandemic is not their fault (because only a raving lunatic would claIm that), but pretty much everything else is."rick_chasey said:It’s not the gov’ts fault that there is a pandemic.
This thread though: another example of this cabinet’s appalling ability to do anything good when it come to the actual health bit.0
