The big Coronavirus thread

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  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    rick_chasey said:

    kingstonian said:

    rick_chasey said:

    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    Have we done the Macron saying the quiet bit out loud; that he wants to “p!ss off the unvaccinated”??

    I’d love Starmer to do the same. Massive vote winner, backs BoJo in a corner.

    Do we not have vaccination rates up in the levels we have for pretty much everything else. Assuming this is the case I can't really see beyond specific occupational safety reasons a need to go and actively annoy this minority. Lets face it we need some examples of people refusing to be vaccinated to keep the Darwin awards going and I think the levels of the unvacinnated are not driving the problem. I don't think this would be the vote winner you think it is. I can't think of anything worse that living under a woke, Labour government that thinks it can manage risk better than you. Why stop at the antivaxxers, why not dictate the percentage asset split of your pension fund and a host of other issues you could mandate for no particular gain as they know best.
    I guess when you have nationalised healthcare, then healthcare is part of the state mandate, and vaccinations are are a critical part of public health.

    It's not a free market where your hospitals can chose not to help the unvaccinated, right?

    The principle of the NHS is to provide healthcare free at the point of delivery for all, irrespective of the reason behind why the individual requires that healthcare. So for example, the terrorist that attacked and killed a police officer at Westminster a few years ago was subsequently shot multiple times by another officer, and paramedics tried to save his life (unsuccessfully). The morality of how he had been injured was put to one side, the paramedics did everything they could to try to save him. Same for drink drivers, people overdosing on illegal drugs, and so on. I wouldn’t want any govnt to seek to change that.
    Thanks for that irrelevant explanation of stuff we all know. Especially helpful as I have on this very thread explained the triage morality dilemma and the solution multiple times.

    Anything else you wanna share? Did you know that any particle of matter in the universe attracts any other with a force varying directly as the product of the masses and inversely as the square of the distance between them?

    Anyway,

    The point I was making was vaccinations are a critical part of public health, right?

    And given the point you unnecessarily explained (and was already assumed in my post), then surely it is in the state's best interest from a public health perspective to legislate to make sure the public health is well looked after?

    I can't really think of any material drawbacks from having the vaccine, legitimate medical exemptions aside, so other than the right not to have it, which is entirely theoretical, why not make it compulsory, or at least, to avoid mass restrictions, dramatically curb the rights of anti-vaxxers?

    Really no need for the first part. Maybe make your posts clearer so we don’t have to assume what you mean. You can be such a d!ck at times.

    There’s still 25-30k of 1st doses being administered daily at the moment. I don’t know the age spread of these tbh but suspect quite a sizeable proportion are in the 12-15 age group. I think I’m right in saying there is a time delay between having tested for Covid and being able to be jabbed - with the rampant infections recently a fair few unvaccinated will have fallen foul of this and can’t get jabbed even if they now want to. I’d favour letting things run as they are for a couple more months and see where we are by then.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,551
    kingstongraham said:

    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Jezyboy said:

    I think it's too risky a strategy.

    It might be a pandemic of the unvaccinated in terms of ICU admissions, but in terms of catching it and having to isolate, the vaccine seems to offer only limited benefits.


    If there were no unvaccinated around, would the vaccinated need to isolate?
    Yes. Lots of people in hospital have severely compromised immune systems. And almost by definition, the patients in hospital will be more vulnerable to Covid than the general population. Hospitals are also really great places for spreading respiratory infections.

    I don't see it as that different from having to be tested for MRSA before going into hospital to get my finger screwed back together.
    But you don't need to get tested for MRSA before leaving the house to go to the cinema.

    Vaccinated people would not be able to do certain jobs while infected.
    I thought we were just talking about pressure on hospitals. Nobody is proposing requiring vaccination to leave the house. It's up to cinemas what they do.
    I think you misunderstand me. Currently, if you catch it and are vaccinated, you need to stay at home and cannot go to the cinema because of that.

    The last few people I know who have had it were unwell enough to want a few days off work despite being fully vaccinated, so I am not sure that is such an imposition. What it has meant I didn't catch it off any of them despite sitting in the same room for an hour or so for a meeting.

    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,167
    Friend of mine just got pinged because her sofa is just the other side of the wall from her neighbours bedroom, said neighbour being in bed with Covid.

    I never knew Bluetooth was that strong a signal. Got to love UK building standards.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    rjsterry said:

    kingstongraham said:

    Jezyboy said:

    I think it's too risky a strategy.

    It might be a pandemic of the unvaccinated in terms of ICU admissions, but in terms of catching it and having to isolate, the vaccine seems to offer only limited benefits.


    If there were no unvaccinated around, would the vaccinated need to isolate?
    Yes. Lots of people in hospital have severely compromised immune systems. And almost by definition, the patients in hospital will be more vulnerable to Covid than the general population. Hospitals are also really great places for spreading respiratory infections.

    I don't see it as that different from having to be tested for MRSA before going into hospital to get my finger screwed back together.
    But you don't need to get tested for MRSA before leaving the house to go to the cinema.

    Vaccinated people would not be able to do certain jobs while infected.
    I thought we were just talking about pressure on hospitals. Nobody is proposing requiring vaccination to leave the house. It's up to cinemas what they do.
    I think you misunderstand me. Currently, if you catch it and are vaccinated, you need to stay at home and cannot go to the cinema because of that.

    The last few people I know who have had it were unwell enough to want a few days off work despite being fully vaccinated, so I am not sure that is such an imposition. What it has meant I didn't catch it off any of them despite sitting in the same room for an hour or so for a meeting.

    If you are unwell enough to be off work, that's a bit different isn't it?

    Last few people I know who tested positive had a day with a sniffle and then 6 days sat at home (working for those that could).

    All I'm saying is that the soaring cases are no issue for those making the decisions, so why are we pretending that soaring cases are an issue such that we need to keep those with no symptoms at home?
  • focuszing723
    focuszing723 Posts: 8,151


    The first outbreak of human infection by avian influenza viruses (H5N1) was observed in 1997 in Hong Kong. Since then a large number of outbreaks have been reported in different parts of the world. In fact, the spread of avian influenza H5N1 in various species including humans has lead to a current pandemic threat.

    Human avian influenza infections in persons at high risk of exposure can be prevented by adopting a series of protective measures, anti-viral vaccination and health monitoring. Drugs currently available for the treatment or prophylaxis of influenza infections include the adamantanes (amantadine and rimantadine) and the newer class of neuraminidase inhibitors (zanamivir, oseltamivir and peramivir). However, vaccines are considered the first line of defense for reducing the excess morbidity and mortality that invariably accompany pandemics and a number of clinical trials are under way to test them.
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3068632/

    Let's hope that doesn't spread.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    I see that France managed a third of a million new cases, yesterday.
    Impressive.
    Makes us look like amateurs.
    Turns out Macron actually did us a favour.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    blazing_saddles said:

    I see that France managed a third of a million new cases, yesterday.
    Impressive.
    Makes us look like amateurs.
    Turns out Macron actually did us a favour.


    Staggering numbers.
  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59893269

    Struggling to add the link to the article properly when using my iPad, but the BBC are reporting that 823 people have been issued or are about to be issued with £200 fines for not wearing masks on the London Underground in the first 3 weeks of Dec. At least some people are being pulled up for it.
  • rjsterry
    rjsterry Posts: 29,551
    Good.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Part of the anti-growth coalition
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    edited January 2022
    Dorset_Boy said:

    ddraver said:

    Indeed...

    Would have been slightly better if they hadn't let him fly all the way there first, but right decision in the end

    Makes even more of a point doing it this way though!

    @blazing_saddles - any word on where Wales would look to play?
    Since you asked, I have been digging, but so far I don't have an answer.
    However, with no change to restrictions in Wales announced, I think this outcome is a step closer.
    Even if a total ban is rescinded before the start of the 6 Nations, I can see capacity being severely limited.

    Having claimed to always be following the science when introducing rules, when it comes to relaxing the restrictions, Drakeford appears to be ignoring the Omicron science.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • pblakeney
    pblakeney Posts: 27,327
    edited January 2022
    "Everything is going to plan. Nothing to see here."

    Armed Forces medics called in.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59902220
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
    I am not sure. You have no chance.
    Veronese68 wrote:
    PB is the most sensible person on here.
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,349
    pblakeney said:

    "Everything is going to plan. Nothing to see here."

    Armed Forces medics called in.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-59902220


    Just seems like a sensible reaction to unavoidably high staff absence, brought on by a highly infectious (though thankfully largely not now deadly) virus that requires quarantine.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,167
    kingstongraham said:

    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


    Imagine how bad it would have been.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


    Imagine how bad it would have been.
    I am trying to imagine - maybe something like this?


  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,167
    kingstongraham said:

    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


    Imagine how bad it would have been.
    I am trying to imagine - maybe something like this?


    Who the fuck flagged that?
  • pangolin
    pangolin Posts: 6,648
    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


    Imagine how bad it would have been.
    I am trying to imagine - maybe something like this?


    Who the censored flagged that?
    Drakeford?
    - Genesis Croix de Fer
    - Dolan Tuono
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 21,915
    kingstongraham said:

    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


    Imagine how bad it would have been.
    I am trying to imagine - maybe something like this?


    Weren't some of the restrictions the sort that encouraged the spread e.g. don't watch sport outside, better do it down the pub.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    TheBigBean said:

    kingstongraham said:

    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


    Imagine how bad it would have been.
    I am trying to imagine - maybe something like this?


    Weren't some of the restrictions the sort that encouraged the spread e.g. don't watch sport outside, better do it down the pub.
    That's the sort of thing that could never have been predicted.
  • Pross
    Pross Posts: 43,463
    TheBigBean said:

    kingstongraham said:

    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


    Imagine how bad it would have been.
    I am trying to imagine - maybe something like this?


    Weren't some of the restrictions the sort that encouraged the spread e.g. don't watch sport outside, better do it down the pub.
    Yep, lunacy - I can't do a Parkrun in Wales but can jump on a train with hundreds of others to do one in England or can go to busy shops and sit in a crowded cafe on a Saturday morning instead.

    To be fair, the numbers do also probably reflect that the peak in England has finished whilst in the other nations it is only just arriving. What were the numbers in England like per 100,000 at their worst or are they still rising too?

    I had hoped today's update would realise the 'more stringent' rules aren't helping and would be dropped, feared that they would actually bring in more restrictions but they've just left them unchanged apparently.
  • Jezyboy
    Jezyboy Posts: 3,605
    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


    Imagine how bad it would have been.
    Imagine how I feel! Having to admit that Boris might have got it right 🤣.

  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    Pross said:

    TheBigBean said:

    kingstongraham said:

    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


    Imagine how bad it would have been.
    I am trying to imagine - maybe something like this?


    Weren't some of the restrictions the sort that encouraged the spread e.g. don't watch sport outside, better do it down the pub.
    Yep, lunacy - I can't do a Parkrun in Wales but can jump on a train with hundreds of others to do one in England or can go to busy shops and sit in a crowded cafe on a Saturday morning instead.

    To be fair, the numbers do also probably reflect that the peak in England has finished whilst in the other nations it is only just arriving. What were the numbers in England like per 100,000 at their worst or are they still rising too?

    I had hoped today's update would realise the 'more stringent' rules aren't helping and would be dropped, feared that they would actually bring in more restrictions but they've just left them unchanged apparently.

    Yeah, the situation with a Parkrun is baffling. Defies all logic.

    From a brief glance at the data yesterday it looks like the wave of infections in London/SE England is on the way down and it is now spreading across the rest of the country, with it indeed looking like we may have already seen the peak across the country as a whole.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    edited January 2022
    Jezyboy said:

    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


    Imagine how bad it would have been.
    Imagine how I feel! Having to admit that Boris might have got it right 🤣.

    Correlation is not causation - for all we know it could have been even worse in Wales & Scotland had it not been for the restrictions, and would go some way to explain why they went for the restrictions to begin with.
    _
  • briantrumpet
    briantrumpet Posts: 20,349
    Jezyboy said:

    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


    Imagine how bad it would have been.
    Imagine how I feel! Having to admit that Boris might have got it right 🤣.


    Even if it's for the wrong reasons (fear of his backbenchers, rather than anything else)... yes.
    https://www.facebook.com/unanglaisendiois
  • mrb123
    mrb123 Posts: 4,815
    Jezyboy said:

    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


    Imagine how bad it would have been.
    Imagine how I feel! Having to admit that Boris might have got it right 🤣.

    A stopped clock is right twice a day...
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    Jezyboy said:

    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


    Imagine how bad it would have been.
    Imagine how I feel! Having to admit that Boris might have got it right 🤣.

    Only kind of - remember plan B restrictions were supposed to keep the infection rates down while allowing everyone to go out to pre-Christmas parties. What actually happened was people didn't go to pre-Christmas parties and the infection rates went up.

    He's tried the same 4 times now - eventually he was going to do it with the variant where it didn't mean lots of extra people died.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,152
    Constantly banging on about the boosters even when asked about corruption was a good strategy though.
  • First.Aspect
    First.Aspect Posts: 17,167
    rick_chasey said:

    Jezyboy said:

    First.Aspect said:

    kingstongraham said:

    The extra restrictions look to have done as well as expected.


    Imagine how bad it would have been.
    Imagine how I feel! Having to admit that Boris might have got it right 🤣.

    Correlation is not causation - for all we know it could have been even worse in Wales & Scotland had it not been for the restrictions, and would go some way to explain why they went for the restrictions to begin with.
    No, I don't think so, with the possible exception of mark mandate a few weeks earlier.

    That might have helped because people hide indoors here earlier in the year.

    But overall I don't see much in the data across the UK that can't be explained by factors other than all of the political posturing and "local differecism" that's gone on.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    What is the evidence that the additional restrictions in Wales & Scotland made it *worse*?

    i mean, we have a huge amount of evidence that restrictions do bring the R rate down.

    _
  • kingstonian
    kingstonian Posts: 2,847
    kingstongraham said:

    Constantly banging on about the boosters even when asked about corruption was a good strategy though.


    Yeah, to be honest at that point in time keeping the focus on boosters and Covid in general was more important. Not saying the whiff of corruption should be ignored but the last 2-3 weeks wasn’t the time.

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