Scot Indy Ref #2

aberdeen_lune

john80 said:

In 1997 the EU decreed a common driving test hence why my wife is able to drive a 7.5 tonne truck and a massive trialer passing pre 1997. I on the other hand had to sit an additional test for a trailer and would need to do a further test for a truck. How much has it cost councils to date getting their grass cutters to do an additional test to take one sector. There is one example of box ticking as it was not post 1997 drivers when it was introduced having accidents with trucks or trailers.

Wow thank goodness we’re getting away from that draconian rule 🤪

Stevo_666

john80 said:

In 1997 the EU decreed a common driving test hence why my wife is able to drive a 7.5 tonne truck and a massive trialer passing pre 1997. I on the other hand had to sit an additional test for a trailer and would need to do a further test for a truck. How much has it cost councils to date getting their grass cutters to do an additional test to take one sector. There is one example of box ticking as it was not post 1997 drivers when it was introduced having accidents with trucks or trailers.

I think what you've hit on is the point that while there may not be many rules of such massive signifiance that the general public are up in arms about, the sheer number of EU rules and that many of them seem a bit pointless mean its 'death by a thousand cuts'. And the sheer volume of regs that need to be complied with or at least considered become a real bind and a cost.

If you Google 'stupid EU laws' or 'pointless EU laws' and discount the ones the tabloids made up, you will get some more examples. There are a few in my area I could name although they are quite esoteric.

tangled_metal

One figure for laws from eu I've seen between 1996 and 2014 was 3500 out of 34000 laws passed. 72 laws were voted against by uk MEPs. Source was an article from a pro EU organisation.

The sovereignty issue perceived is probably more about distrust of EU bodies and a desire to draw back to within the UK.

I find the Scottish independence view about bringing the power to make laws back to Scotland. What laws made in Westminster since the union was created haven't had the involvement of Scottish elected representatives? They are elected to represent Scottish constituents in Westminster to contribute to law making. That's the same for English, Welsh and northern Irish MPs.

This taking back sovereignty issue is interesting because the UK has a democratic system based on the whole of the union getting a fairly equal right to vote for their representative. Their representative then contributes to lawmaking for the union. Independence is about making the democracy smaller. By this I mean bringing it closer to three constituents. How close is the optimum? Scotland? Highland, islands and lowlands split?

I wonder if there's any research about the size and closeness of representation on level of democracy. It seems to me this would be relevant to whether Scotland is the optimum size for lawmaking and democracy purposes.

Stevo_666

tangled_metal said:

One figure for laws from eu I've seen between 1996 and 2014 was 3500 out of 34000 laws passed. 72 laws were voted against by uk MEPs. Source was an article from a pro EU organisation.

The sovereignty issue perceived is probably more about distrust of EU bodies and a desire to draw back to within the UK.

I find the Scottish independence view about bringing the power to make laws back to Scotland. What laws made in Westminster since the union was created haven't had the involvement of Scottish elected representatives? They are elected to represent Scottish constituents in Westminster to contribute to law making. That's the same for English, Welsh and northern Irish MPs.

This taking back sovereignty issue is interesting because the UK has a democratic system based on the whole of the union getting a fairly equal right to vote for their representative. Their representative then contributes to lawmaking for the union. Independence is about making the democracy smaller. By this I mean bringing it closer to three constituents. How close is the optimum? Scotland? Highland, islands and lowlands split?

I wonder if there's any research about the size and closeness of representation on level of democracy. It seems to me this would be relevant to whether Scotland is the optimum size for lawmaking and democracy purposes.

The figures vary widely, anything from 13% to 70% and absolute numbers from around what you quoted up to 19,000. I'm guessing there is a fair bit of latitude in interpreting what is and what isn't.

However the point remains that the EU likes its rules and its instinct seems to be 'if in doubt, legislate'. More so than us Brits seem to want to do IMO. Which is possibly a cause of fhe feeling amongst many voters that the EU is un-necessarily intrusive.

rjsterry

Given we were as involved as any other country in initiating EU Directives, it's rather inaccurate to refer to "their" laws. Our own parliament is more than happy to over-legislate - often badly as with the Dangerous Dogs Act or the Fox hunting ban. But at least they're our f***-ups, eh?

Stevo_666

rjsterry said:

Given we were as involved as any other country in initiating EU Directives, it's rather inaccurate to refer to "their" laws. Our own parliament is more than happy to over-legislate - often badly as with the Dangerous Dogs Act or the Fox hunting ban. But at least they're our f***-ups, eh?

Well quite.

We don't always get it right but we are more likely to as the rules will be UK specific rather than 'one size fits all' for 28 countries. I'm a believer that rules for the UK should be made in the UK as far as possible. Seems like a lot of people agree with that.

aberdeen_lune

Just to point out Scotland has a separate legal system. Quite happy for Westminster to legislate for England but keep us out of it. We should be in control of our legislation through Holyrood.

Oh and “us Brits” what does that mean? Please replace the term with “us Englanders” in future. Not many people outside England like being referred to as Brits apart from the DUP folk in NI.

ballysmate

aberdeen_lune said:

Just to point out Scotland has a separate legal system. Quite happy for Westminster to legislate for England but keep us out of it. We should be in control of our legislation through Holyrood.

Oh and “us Brits” what does that mean? Please replace the term with “us Englanders” in future. Not many people outside England like being referred to as Brits apart from the DUP folk in NI.

At the last count 55% in Scotland were quite happy to be 'Brits'.

john80

rjsterry said:

In what world do councils employ thousands of truck drivers?

Longshot asked for an example of a rule and I have provided one. In my case this test including training for the test, test fees and lost wages amounted to around £3000. That is less VAT and corporation tax to the Exchequer for a start. When I asked under the freedom of information act the amount in fees the DVLA earned from the trailer tests alone was in the tens of millions. Lets face it if the issue was road safety then it hardly seems the most productive way of dealing with it to let everyone causing the accidents to continue to tow whilst hammering all new drivers. You would be surprised just how many people need this license now and it wont be a trivial cost to a council waste and recreational team given all their new hires will likely need this license with a pass rate of in the region of 60% on average.

rjsterry

aberdeen_lune said:

Just to point out Scotland has a separate legal system. Quite happy for Westminster to legislate for England but keep us out of it. We should be in control of our legislation through Holyrood.

Oh and “us Brits” what does that mean? Please replace the term with “us Englanders” in future. Not many people outside England like being referred to as Brits apart from the DUP folk in NI.

No. You're Scottish. I'm English. We're both British and European. These are all just facts, regardless of what nationalists say.

bompington

ballysmate said:

aberdeen_lune said:

Just to point out Scotland has a separate legal system. Quite happy for Westminster to legislate for England but keep us out of it. We should be in control of our legislation through Holyrood.

Oh and “us Brits” what does that mean? Please replace the term with “us Englanders” in future. Not many people outside England like being referred to as Brits apart from the DUP folk in NI.

At the last count 55% in Scotland were quite happy to be 'Brits'.

This is the point.
Actually Aberdonian has a point in that most Scottish people indeed like to see their primary identity as "Scottish" rather than British - heck, I "identify" as Scottish (as they say these days) when abroad.
But a majority see the actual practical business of the organisation of national life in a different light: and, in much the same way as there aren't many people in the UK who rhapsodise the EU yet the majority have consistently been against leaving, the same is true in Scotland wrt the UK.

It's a business arrangement not a marriage: and yet, despite the determined efforts of the Nats to promote division, Scots and English have far, far more common than the differences.

I sometimes think that a lot of the upsurge in nationalism in the west is just the "narcissism of petty differences" that is such a major part of modern online life.

pblakeney

bompington said:

I sometimes think that a lot of the upsurge in nationalism in the west is just the "narcissism of petty differences" that is such a major part of modern online life.

I think the real debate will be BJ’s policies v Scots more socialist objectives v financial impact.
BJ could quite literally be the decider.

laurentian

Stevo_666 said:

rjsterry said:

. I'm a believer that rules for the UK should be made in the UK as far as possible. Seems like a lot of people agree with that.

I think most "rules" are made in the UK.

An EU Directive is issued for something and it is then down to the member states to put legislation in place to implement that directive.

I think it is done this way to ensure that a country can implement with its existing infrastructure.

The EU, by necessity, has to issue many rules as they are trying to standardise stuff across many countries with different stadards, laws and means of enforcement.

aberdeen_lune

I think the point is things have changed in the last 5 years. The 55% that voted to stay in the union were sold a line that we would be better together.

Now we are coming out of the EU are things going to be so good? Also a continuation of Tory governments treating the Scots badly will only result in the 45% growing.

So who is to say 55% want to be Brits now and that is only going to drop further as the trade deals are dragged out over the next ten years and the interim deals impact us all with higher food prices and higher prices on imported goods. The fishermen who voted to leave the EU are going to get shafted too as a negotiating lever in the trade talks. So slowly that 55 drops to 45 and the 45 jumps to 55.

Stevo_666

aberdeen_lune said:

I think the point is things have changed in the last 5 years. The 55% that voted to stay in the union were sold a line that we would be better together.

Now we are coming out of the EU are things going to be so good? Also a continuation of Tory governments treating the Scots badly will only result in the 45% growing.

So who is to say 55% want to be Brits now and that is only going to drop further as the trade deals are dragged out over the next ten years and the interim deals impact us all with higher food prices and higher prices on imported goods. The fishermen who voted to leave the EU are going to get shafted too as a negotiating lever in the trade talks. So slowly that 55 drops to 45 and the 45 jumps to 55.

So what you seem to be saying there is 'let's keep voting until the numbers go our way'?

So if you got what you wanted and after that people changed their minds, would you be OK to reverse the decision?

tangled_metal

Aiui rules from eu get enacted in law by nations. Those nations then enforce it. However like state subsidies the degree they enforce it varies from nation to nation. Whilst UK claims not to like eu rules they are the ones to adhere to the state support rules with Germany among the nations breaking the eu rules the most.

I suspect a lot of times UK governments have decried EU regulations and rules they have to follow only to be the nation that most wants the rules. A case of having the EU to blame for rules they know are to the UK's benefit but potentially unpopular.

I suspect this effect is used by SNP too. UK wide regulation, laws or policies that are needed but unpopular get the label of being dictated by England on the Scotlanders. Part of me wonders what will happen when independence is achieved and all unpopular decisions can only be blamed on scotlander politicians.

Longshot

john80 said:

rjsterry said:

In what world do councils employ thousands of truck drivers?

Longshot asked for an example of a rule and I have provided one.

Actually, that wasn't me but it doesn't affect the follow up replies.

Longshot

Oh and for the sake of argument, out of the the rules/laws that the EU have passed in the past ten years, what percentage do you think we would have passed ourselves (in one format or another?).

It's misleading to suggest that we would have passed none of them had we been 'in control'.

Stevo_666

Longshot said:

Oh and for the sake of argument, out of the the rules/laws that the EU have passed in the past ten years, what percentage do you think we would have passed ourselves (in one format or another?).

It's misleading to suggest that we would have passed none of them had we been 'in control'.

I'm pretty sure that we passed a lot of these in part because we were being cooperative EU members and have tended to 'toe the line' in this regard even if we did kick up about a lot of other things. However, once we are not EU members we won't get a lot of these laws put in front of us to approve by the EU in the first place.

Longshot

Stevo_666 said:

Longshot said:

Oh and for the sake of argument, out of the the rules/laws that the EU have passed in the past ten years, what percentage do you think we would have passed ourselves (in one format or another?).

It's misleading to suggest that we would have passed none of them had we been 'in control'.

I'm pretty sure that we passed a lot of these in part because we were being cooperative EU members and have tended to 'toe the line' in this regard even if we did kick up about a lot of other things. However, once we are not EU members we won't get a lot of these laws put in front of us to approve by the EU in the first place.

That wasn't really my point.

A number of the laws imposed upon us by the EU would have been put in place in one format or another by the UK Government anyway if we had been outside the EU. Many of the matters covered by these laws required required legislation.

I don't know if that would have been some, a few or a lot off the laws that have been passed. They may have come out differently but to infer that every EU-led law has somehow been unnecessary seems misleading to me.

An example would be the "Heat Network Regulations" which was an EU led piece of legislation in 2014 that we adopted and then generally put on hold ever since. Whilst we now will have every opportunity to rid ourselves of this crappy piece of legislation I'm advised that we're going to keep it as it's felt to be important. I can only assume that if we had been outside the EU we would have drawn it up anyway in the same or similar format.

rick_chasey

You do know the UK has/had a say in EU legislation,right?

rjsterry

bompington said:

ballysmate said:

aberdeen_lune said:

Just to point out Scotland has a separate legal system. Quite happy for Westminster to legislate for England but keep us out of it. We should be in control of our legislation through Holyrood.

Oh and “us Brits” what does that mean? Please replace the term with “us Englanders” in future. Not many people outside England like being referred to as Brits apart from the DUP folk in NI.

At the last count 55% in Scotland were quite happy to be 'Brits'.

This is the point.
Actually Aberdonian has a point in that most Scottish people indeed like to see their primary identity as "Scottish" rather than British - heck, I "identify" as Scottish (as they say these days) when abroad.
But a majority see the actual practical business of the organisation of national life in a different light: and, in much the same way as there aren't many people in the UK who rhapsodise the EU yet the majority have consistently been against leaving, the same is true in Scotland wrt the UK.

It's a business arrangement not a marriage: and yet, despite the determined efforts of the Nats to promote division, Scots and English have far, far more common than the differences.

I sometimes think that a lot of the upsurge in nationalism in the west is just the "narcissism of petty differences" that is such a major part of modern online life.

Excellently put. I bet those who consider themselves Pictish are brassed off that the invaders got to name the country.

john80

Longshot said:

john80 said:

rjsterry said:

In what world do councils employ thousands of truck drivers?

Longshot asked for an example of a rule and I have provided one.

Actually, that wasn't me but it doesn't affect the follow up replies.

Below is the original post for those with amnesia of which Longshot appears to be a sufferer.

aberdeen_lune said:
I still haven’t figured out what specific laws/rules the EU imposed on the UK. For Scotland it’s quite easy to identify the issues we don’t have control of. Can anyone explain which EU laws we needed to get rid of?

:D:D

Some of us are still waiting for an answer to that question.

john80

rick_chasey said:

You do know the UK has/had a say in EU legislation,right?

Does the UK have a majority within the EU to allow us to get our way with all new laws proposed. This is quite ironic on a Scottish topic where the consistent view is that Scotland does not get its views heard as they are the minority in a UK wide parliament. Maybe have a think about how much influence our MEP really have.

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

You do know the UK has/had a say in EU legislation,right?

Yes, but it didn't always seem to me to be very effective, except in those areas where we wielded a power of veto.

rick_chasey

I always understood the UK influence in the EU to be one of the crowning achievements of its diplomatic corps; its influence was even outsized given its relative size within the EU and it was a huge agenda setter.

I mean, being able to have outsized influence on the biggest single market in the world and one of the three big superpowers in the world is not to be sniffed at.

tangled_metal

rick_chasey said:

You do know theat Scotland has/had a say in uk legislation,right?

FTFY. It's now more relevant to indyref2 topic. I hope you don't mind!

Stevo_666

rick_chasey said:

I always understood the UK influence in the EU to be one of the crowning achievements of its diplomatic corps; its influence was even outsized given its relative size within the EU and it was a huge agenda setter.

I mean, being able to have outsized influence on the biggest single market in the world and one of the three big superpowers in the world is not to be sniffed at.

Possibly. Who knows for sure?

Here's why we and others joined the EU - apparently:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=rvYuoWyk8iU

rick_chasey

tangled_metal said:

rick_chasey said:

You do know theat Scotland has/had a say in uk legislation,right?

FTFY. It's now more relevant to indyref2 topic. I hope you don't mind!

Sure.

Look, I can totally see the frustration for fairly liberal scots - being dragged out of the EU by little englanders is pretty awful - I feel the same from my vantage point.

What's so awful about Brexit is that it can't be undone, and the same goes for Scotland, unfortunately. You can't get that toothpaste back into the tube.

But ultimately all the same reasons for not wanting Brexit apply to Scotland, save for that particular annoyance.

If you're an internationalist Scot you're between a rock and a hard place. Ultimately, Scotland is an awful lot smaller than the UK so its horizons also ought to be smaller; involvment in the UK market is still more critical than involvement with the EU, for all the same reasons the UK's relationship with the EU is more critical than its relationship with the rest of the world.

Longshot

john80 said:

Longshot said:

john80 said:

rjsterry said:

In what world do councils employ thousands of truck drivers?

Longshot asked for an example of a rule and I have provided one.

Actually, that wasn't me but it doesn't affect the follow up replies.

Below is the original post for those with amnesia of which Longshot appears to be a sufferer.

aberdeen_lune said:
I still haven’t figured out what specific laws/rules the EU imposed on the UK. For Scotland it’s quite easy to identify the issues we don’t have control of. Can anyone explain which EU laws we needed to get rid of?

:D:D

Some of us are still waiting for an answer to that question.

So, in fact, aberdeen_lune asked for an example, not me?

I made a typically half-arsed, funny-in-my-own-head remark in response to his request. I stand by my earlier comment, whatever it was, I forget. Apparently.