Scot Indy Ref #2

haydenm

aberdeen_lune said:

So you have a choice to vote yes or no. There are lots of currency options. Any country restarting will have similar issues. Whether it’s pound scottish pound dollar or euro doesn’t bother me.

I do, if I vote no I know what currency we will be using, if I vote yes there are a range of options from really bad to probably fine but will inevitably cause disruption for a few years while we argue about it. This is exactly my issue with Brexit.

twotoebenny

haydenm said:

aberdeen_lune said:

So you have a choice to vote yes or no. There are lots of currency options. Any country restarting will have similar issues. Whether it’s pound scottish pound dollar or euro doesn’t bother me.

I do, if I vote no I know what currency we will be using, if I vote yes there are a range of options from really bad to probably fine but will inevitably cause disruption for a few years while we argue about it. This is exactly my issue with Brexit.

This was my position last ref and pre brexit but were now in a position of uncertainty anyway so IMO better to do it our way than follow the Little Englanders.

Stevo_666

aberdeen_lune said:

So you have a choice to vote yes or no. There are lots of currency options. Any country restarting will have similar issues. Whether it’s pound scottish pound dollar or euro doesn’t bother me.

Just adopting a new currency is not exactly simple or quick. Remember the 'prepare and decide' machinations when Blair wanted us to join the Euro? And the ramifications of picking some currency that will allow you to use it not necessarily easy to predict.
I agree its not a reason not have a another referendum as you say above, but it is a reason to think carefully about how you do vote.

john80

rick_chasey said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

I'm not sure you understand what I'm asking.

I was pro independence and pro leave. Now the landscape of brexit has come to pass scotland has reduced options as above.

Correct me if I am wrong but i have a memory of you making a big deal about how everyone was wrong when discussing only the economic aspects of Brexit as, for you, it was as much about sovereignty etc.

I think we're all wondering why you're not applying that lens to the referendum.

Given that remain supporters lost the Brexit referendum but continually underestimating the sovereignty based issues such as immigration and continually overplaying the economic disaster model was a bad play and why the referendum was lost. If disagreeing with you was a big deal then I am happy to oblige in this occasion.

A lot of the drivers around immigration and access to key public services and general overpopulation of areas arguments reduce in importance the further you go North. Therefore I don't think that if there was another Scottish referendum the leavers would be able to galvanise such a strong sovereignty case and it will fall more on the economic arguments. A lot of Scots are pretty relaxed about immigration increasing their house prices, more pupils in a village school facing closure or a few more cars on a road that is not overly busy. The same cannot be said in the South East of England.

john80

kingstongraham said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

SC has a point John - why the different tact re Indy and Brexit?

It is mainly because if scotland had left the uk first time round using the pound and remaining within the eu it could have worked both giving stability with close links to the UK and allowing the Scots to manage their own preferences. Now in the current climate scotland has its main trading partner following a route of divergence with the eu and immigration controls. I dont think scotland can closely align with the eu as it wishes and trade successfully with its main trading partner in England in the longer term. Like it or not Scotland is tied to the uk through its links. Scotland is no Norway with a sovereign weath fund to smooth the ride to independence. To give one example of immigration Scots are more favourable than English.

So you are telling those in Scotland that they shouldn't have a ref and decide their own future because the larger union is saying it would be bad economically for them to diverge from its near neighbours?

If they want a referendum then I am not blocking it however I think they are less likely to win than before in the current landscape. I might be underestimating my fellow Scots stick it up em attitude. I do also understand the UK governments position to not grant one as it is destabilising in addition to Brexit and it was a once in a generation referendum apparently. I know Scottish life expectancy is low but I am not sure it is that low.

kingstongraham

john80 said:

kingstongraham said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

SC has a point John - why the different tact re Indy and Brexit?

It is mainly because if scotland had left the uk first time round using the pound and remaining within the eu it could have worked both giving stability with close links to the UK and allowing the Scots to manage their own preferences. Now in the current climate scotland has its main trading partner following a route of divergence with the eu and immigration controls. I dont think scotland can closely align with the eu as it wishes and trade successfully with its main trading partner in England in the longer term. Like it or not Scotland is tied to the uk through its links. Scotland is no Norway with a sovereign weath fund to smooth the ride to independence. To give one example of immigration Scots are more favourable than English.

So you are telling those in Scotland that they shouldn't have a ref and decide their own future because the larger union is saying it would be bad economically for them to diverge from its near neighbours?

If they want a referendum then I am not blocking it however I think they are less likely to win than before in the current landscape. I might be underestimating my fellow Scots stick it up em attitude. I do also understand the UK governments position to not grant one as it is destabilising in addition to Brexit and it was a once in a generation referendum apparently. I know Scottish life expectancy is low but I am not sure it is that low.

We're into about the 4th UK parliament since the last referendum, and there has been a fundamental change to the political landscape. Given that a good argument for staying in the UK was that it would be the best way to keep Scotland in the EU, there are good arguments for a new ref.

Stevo_666

kingstongraham said:

john80 said:

kingstongraham said:

john80 said:

rick_chasey said:

SC has a point John - why the different tact re Indy and Brexit?

It is mainly because if scotland had left the uk first time round using the pound and remaining within the eu it could have worked both giving stability with close links to the UK and allowing the Scots to manage their own preferences. Now in the current climate scotland has its main trading partner following a route of divergence with the eu and immigration controls. I dont think scotland can closely align with the eu as it wishes and trade successfully with its main trading partner in England in the longer term. Like it or not Scotland is tied to the uk through its links. Scotland is no Norway with a sovereign weath fund to smooth the ride to independence. To give one example of immigration Scots are more favourable than English.

So you are telling those in Scotland that they shouldn't have a ref and decide their own future because the larger union is saying it would be bad economically for them to diverge from its near neighbours?

If they want a referendum then I am not blocking it however I think they are less likely to win than before in the current landscape. I might be underestimating my fellow Scots stick it up em attitude. I do also understand the UK governments position to not grant one as it is destabilising in addition to Brexit and it was a once in a generation referendum apparently. I know Scottish life expectancy is low but I am not sure it is that low.

We're into about the 4th UK parliament since the last referendum, and there has been a fundamental change to the political landscape. Given that a good argument for staying in the UK was that it would be the best way to keep Scotland in the EU, there are good arguments for a new ref.

As mentioned before, this would be another 'once in a generation' referendum, 5 years or so after the last one. They clearly missed out that this was referring to generations of rabbits or guinea pigs.

tangled_metal

If little englander refers to a withdrawal from a wider world during the lead in to the end of empire. And Scottish independence is about withdrawal from a wider union. Then is it right to call SNP little scotlanders? Are there any similarities?

pblakeney

Aaaahhhhhhh!
“Once in a generation” was never an official position from either side.

“Mr Salmond and his team used the phrase several times in interviews, including one with Andrew Marr where he said that "in my view this is a once in a generation, perhaps even a once in a lifetime opportunity".”

Stevo_666

pblakeney said:

Aaaahhhhhhh!
“Once in a generation” was never an official position from either side.

“Mr Salmond and his team used the phrase several times in interviews, including one with Andrew Marr where he said that "in my view this is a once in a generation, perhaps even a once in a lifetime opportunity".”

Which they have had.

Stevo_666

tangled_metal said:

If little englander refers to a withdrawal from a wider world during the lead in to the end of empire. And Scottish independence is about withdrawal from a wider union. Then is it right to call SNP little scotlanders? Are there any similarities?

Fair point.

aberdeen_lune

I don’t think it here are many similarities with the little Englander Brexit views. You can call me a little Scotlander if you want but in my view the Scottish independence push is to allow us to make our own decisions (well the MSPs) on what we spend our limited resources on. We don’t want the bedroom tax, we want to fund the NHS better, we don’t want to spend money pretending to be a global nuclear power, we want a fairer fiscal policy, we want a fairer immigration policy, we want to have powers to tackle the drug problems in our society etc etc.

Yes we don’t have limitless funds but we want a fairer more cosmopolitan society not a return to a 1950s idea of when Britain was great.

Longshot

aberdeen_lune said:

I don’t think it here are many similarities with the little Englander Brexit views. You can call me a little Scotlander if you want but in my view the Scottish independence push is to allow us to make our own decisions (well the MSPs) on what we spend our limited resources on.

In all seriousness, how is that different to what the 'Leave' campaign was for the UK as a whole?

kingstongraham

Longshot said:

aberdeen_lune said:

I don’t think it here are many similarities with the little Englander Brexit views. You can call me a little Scotlander if you want but in my view the Scottish independence push is to allow us to make our own decisions (well the MSPs) on what we spend our limited resources on.

In all seriousness, how is that different to what the 'Leave' campaign was for the UK as a whole?

There's no claim that Scotland won't be able to do that within the EU.

pblakeney

Longshot said:

aberdeen_lune said:

I don’t think it here are many similarities with the little Englander Brexit views. You can call me a little Scotlander if you want but in my view the Scottish independence push is to allow us to make our own decisions (well the MSPs) on what we spend our limited resources on.

In all seriousness, how is that different to what the 'Leave' campaign was for the UK as a whole?

As I said on page 1 the arguments are extremely similar, both for pro and con.
Expect logic to be similarly dismissed too.

tangled_metal

Sovereignty issues were a part of Brexit as much as part of Scottish independence. The original meaning for little englander is about recentring British priorities on Britain rather than the empire.

It seems to me any attempt to split into smaller units is exactly what little englander is about. Are you disagreeing that independence for Scotland is about splitting the union into smaller parts?

Little englander is now an abusive term or criticism but it's sentiment imho is as valid for Scottish independents, Catalan independents or indeed any other groupings or identities looking to remove themselves from the larger entity they're part of.

Can we start calling Sturgeon a little scotlander now? It really is only fair considering she shares a sentiment with brexiteers over self governance

aberdeen_lune

I still haven’t figured out what specific laws/rules the EU imposed on the UK. For Scotland it’s quite easy to identify the issues we don’t have control of. Can anyone explain which EU laws we needed to get rid of?

bompington

aberdeen_lune said:

I still haven’t figured out what specific laws/rules the EU imposed on the UK. For Scotland it’s quite easy to identify the issues we don’t have control of. Can anyone explain which EU laws we needed to get rid of?

If voting for different parties or different laws are the criteria for independence, then the north of England - or London - have a better historical claim to independence than Scotland.

haydenm

aberdeen_lune said:

I don’t think it here are many similarities with the little Englander Brexit views. You can call me a little Scotlander if you want but in my view the Scottish independence push is to allow us to make our own decisions (well the MSPs) on what we spend our limited resources on. We don’t want the bedroom tax, we want to fund the NHS better, we don’t want to spend money pretending to be a global nuclear power, we want a fairer fiscal policy, we want a fairer immigration policy, we want to have powers to tackle the drug problems in our society etc etc.

Yes we don’t have limitless funds but we want a fairer more cosmopolitan society not a return to a 1950s idea of when Britain was great.

Not disputing a lot of those but I'd rather focus on further devolution to mitigate some of those personally. Like I said before, having someone like Sturgeon highlighting Scotland's differences and pushing for more devolution of powers is probably a good thing, I just don't think Independence is worth the risk

aberdeen_lune

So the north of England and London are countries in there own right now? What school did you go to? Geography obviously wasn’t your strong subject.

rjsterry

aberdeen_lune said:

So the north of England and London are countries in there own right now? What school did you go to? Geography obviously wasn’t your strong subject.

It's not been a separate sovereign state since 1707, so the in its own right bit is pretty debatable.

aberdeen_lune

I didn’t say it was a separate sovereign state. I stated it was a separate country.

rjsterry

How is it separate in a meaningful way?

twotoebenny

rjsterry said:

How is it separate in a meaningful way?

Wtf does this even mean?

rjsterry

Pretty simple question. Aberdeen Lune seems to think that being a country "in its own right" is a pre-requisite of pushing for independence from the UK. Surely any geographically defined area could do so. Ireland managed it with only part of a country.

aberdeen_lune

I didn’t say it was a prerequisite for independence. Just that it’s not comparable to London or north of England. We are not a region.

rjsterry

So what? I don't see that that makes any difference to anything.

Longshot

aberdeen_lune said:

I still haven’t figured out what specific laws/rules the EU imposed on the UK. For Scotland it’s quite easy to identify the issues we don’t have control of. Can anyone explain which EU laws we needed to get rid of?

Some of us are still waiting for an answer to that question.

john80

In 1997 the EU decreed a common driving test hence why my wife is able to drive a 7.5 tonne truck and a massive trialer passing pre 1997. I on the other hand had to sit an additional test for a trailer and would need to do a further test for a truck. How much has it cost councils to date getting their grass cutters to do an additional test to take one sector. There is one example of box ticking as it was not post 1997 drivers when it was introduced having accidents with trucks or trailers.

rjsterry

In what world do councils employ thousands of truck drivers?