Scot Indy Ref #2

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  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    As someone who was broadly supportive of Scottish independence last time I just can't see how it can be made to work now. The EU will insist on its borders being protected and therefore Scotland would have all the issues that have been raised in Northern Ireland. They would be using the pound with no control on monetary policy and facing and EU wanting them to integrate into the Euro. The landscape has changed and for all the Scots that say things have changed well it did not take a genius to work out that the UK may vote to leave the EU based on a long running anti EU sentiment and therefore they should have seen this as the risk it was last time round.
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    john80 said:

    As someone who was broadly supportive of Scottish independence last time I just can't see how it can be made to work now. The EU will insist on its borders being protected and therefore Scotland would have all the issues that have been raised in Northern Ireland. They would be using the pound with no control on monetary policy and facing and EU wanting them to integrate into the Euro. The landscape has changed and for all the Scots that say things have changed well it did not take a genius to work out that the UK may vote to leave the EU based on a long running anti EU sentiment and therefore they should have seen this as the risk it was last time round.

    Interesting that you only list economic reasons for remaining part of the Union. Maybe for them it is an emotional decision based upon an idea of sovereignity and not wanting to be ruled by foreigners in a far away, undemocratic Parliament.

  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Too easy.
    _
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,383
    surrey_commuter said:

    john80 said:

    As someone who was broadly supportive of Scottish independence last time I just can't see how it can be made to work now. The EU will insist on its borders being protected and therefore Scotland would have all the issues that have been raised in Northern Ireland. They would be using the pound with no control on monetary policy and facing and EU wanting them to integrate into the Euro. The landscape has changed and for all the Scots that say things have changed well it did not take a genius to work out that the UK may vote to leave the EU based on a long running anti EU sentiment and therefore they should have seen this as the risk it was last time round.

    Interesting that you only list economic reasons for remaining part of the Union. Maybe for them it is an emotional decision based upon an idea of sovereignity and not wanting to be ruled by foreigners in a far away, undemocratic Parliament.

    Are you saying that the Scots do or don't have valid reasons for wanting to leave the Union because those reasons are emotionally based?
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • aberdeen_lune
    aberdeen_lune Posts: 547
    Aren’t politics all emotion and personalities nowadays?
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,383
    aberdeen_lune said:

    Aren’t politics all emotion and personalities nowadays?

    I wouldn't say all.

    I'm just interested in SC's take on this because if the parallels with Brexit.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Stevo_666 said:

    aberdeen_lune said:

    Aren’t politics all emotion and personalities nowadays?

    I wouldn't say all.

    I'm just interested in SC's take on this because if the parallels with Brexit.
    I hope for your sake you have not missed the point...
    _
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    Stevo_666 said:

    aberdeen_lune said:

    Aren’t politics all emotion and personalities nowadays?

    I wouldn't say all.

    I'm just interested in SC's take on this because if the parallels with Brexit.
    That was my point
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,383
    surrey_commuter said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    aberdeen_lune said:

    Aren’t politics all emotion and personalities nowadays?

    I wouldn't say all.

    I'm just interested in SC's take on this because if the parallels with Brexit.
    That was my point
    I realise that: my question was whether you felt those reasons were valid or not. As what you posted above didn't make it totally clear to me.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • surrey_commuter
    surrey_commuter Posts: 18,867
    good point, John80 had reversed all of his logic from Brexit. If I was voting in Scotref2 I would only care about economics. Which way I voted would depend on where I was living
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    surrey_commuter said:

    John80 had reversed all of his logic from Brexit

    minus zero equals zero, no?
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    bompington said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    John80 had reversed all of his logic from Brexit

    minus zero equals zero, no?
    Always the cheap shots.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,383
    john80 said:

    bompington said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    John80 had reversed all of his logic from Brexit

    minus zero equals zero, no?
    Always the cheap shots.
    Not sure what else you expected from Bompington?
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    SC has a point John - why the different tact re Indy and Brexit?
    _
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Stevo_666 said:

    john80 said:

    bompington said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    John80 had reversed all of his logic from Brexit

    minus zero equals zero, no?
    Always the cheap shots.
    Not sure what else you expected from Bompington?
    If by "cheap show" you mean easy targets, well, who can resist an open goal?

    But RC, I presume you're not so much looking for consistent logic as highlighting its absence.
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    rick_chasey said:

    SC has a point John - why the different tact re Indy and Brexit?

    It is mainly because if scotland had left the uk first time round using the pound and remaining within the eu it could have worked both giving stability with close links to the UK and allowing the Scots to manage their own preferences. Now in the current climate scotland has its main trading partner following a route of divergence with the eu and immigration controls. I dont think scotland can closely align with the eu as it wishes and trade successfully with its main trading partner in England in the longer term. Like it or not Scotland is tied to the uk through its links. Scotland is no Norway with a sovereign weath fund to smooth the ride to independence. To give one example of immigration Scots are more favourable than English.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    I'm not sure you understand what I'm asking.
    _
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    bompington said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    john80 said:

    bompington said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    John80 had reversed all of his logic from Brexit

    minus zero equals zero, no?
    Always the cheap shots.
    Not sure what else you expected from Bompington?
    If by "cheap show" you mean easy targets, well, who can resist an open goal?

    But RC, I presume you're not so much looking for consistent logic as highlighting its absence.
    We're all inconsistent to varying degrees.
    _
  • john80
    john80 Posts: 2,965
    rick_chasey said:

    I'm not sure you understand what I'm asking.

    I was pro independence and pro leave. Now the landscape of brexit has come to pass scotland has reduced options as above.
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    rick_chasey said:

    bompington said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    john80 said:

    bompington said:

    surrey_commuter said:

    John80 had reversed all of his logic from Brexit

    minus zero equals zero, no?
    Always the cheap shots.
    Not sure what else you expected from Bompington?
    If by "cheap show" you mean easy targets, well, who can resist an open goal?

    But RC, I presume you're not so much looking for consistent logic as highlighting its absence.
    We're all inconsistent to varying degrees.
    I'm 100% consistent, but not all the time
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    I'm not sure you understand what I'm asking.

    I was pro independence and pro leave. Now the landscape of brexit has come to pass scotland has reduced options as above.
    Correct me if I am wrong but i have a memory of you making a big deal about how everyone was wrong when discussing only the economic aspects of Brexit as, for you, it was as much about sovereignty etc.

    I think we're all wondering why you're not applying that lens to the referendum.
    _
  • haydenm
    haydenm Posts: 2,997
    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    SC has a point John - why the different tact re Indy and Brexit?

    It is mainly because if scotland had left the uk first time round using the pound and remaining within the eu it could have worked both giving stability with close links to the UK and allowing the Scots to manage their own preferences. Now in the current climate scotland has its main trading partner following a route of divergence with the eu and immigration controls. I dont think scotland can closely align with the eu as it wishes and trade successfully with its main trading partner in England in the longer term. Like it or not Scotland is tied to the uk through its links. Scotland is no Norway with a sovereign weath fund to smooth the ride to independence. To give one example of immigration Scots are more favourable than English.
    I get what you're saying but I think if we had left, remained in the EU and kept the pound we might be in a tricky position as the UK diverges and sets monetary policy with different goals.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,383
    haydenm said:

    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    SC has a point John - why the different tact re Indy and Brexit?

    It is mainly because if scotland had left the uk first time round using the pound and remaining within the eu it could have worked both giving stability with close links to the UK and allowing the Scots to manage their own preferences. Now in the current climate scotland has its main trading partner following a route of divergence with the eu and immigration controls. I dont think scotland can closely align with the eu as it wishes and trade successfully with its main trading partner in England in the longer term. Like it or not Scotland is tied to the uk through its links. Scotland is no Norway with a sovereign weath fund to smooth the ride to independence. To give one example of immigration Scots are more favourable than English.
    I get what you're saying but I think if we had left, remained in the EU and kept the pound we might be in a tricky position as the UK diverges and sets monetary policy with different goals.
    Nor is it proper independence if another country controls 'your' currency, interest rates etc. Assuming that other country allows you to use their currency.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • bompington
    bompington Posts: 7,674
    Stevo_666 said:

    haydenm said:

    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    SC has a point John - why the different tact re Indy and Brexit?

    It is mainly because if scotland had left the uk first time round using the pound and remaining within the eu it could have worked both giving stability with close links to the UK and allowing the Scots to manage their own preferences. Now in the current climate scotland has its main trading partner following a route of divergence with the eu and immigration controls. I dont think scotland can closely align with the eu as it wishes and trade successfully with its main trading partner in England in the longer term. Like it or not Scotland is tied to the uk through its links. Scotland is no Norway with a sovereign weath fund to smooth the ride to independence. To give one example of immigration Scots are more favourable than English.
    I get what you're saying but I think if we had left, remained in the EU and kept the pound we might be in a tricky position as the UK diverges and sets monetary policy with different goals.
    Nor is it proper independence if another country controls 'your' currency, interest rates etc. Assuming that other country allows you to use their currency.
    True. But of course, like all good politicians, the SNP aren't so much interested in the actual result, more in whatever they can sell as being a win.
  • Stevo_666
    Stevo_666 Posts: 61,383
    bompington said:

    Stevo_666 said:

    haydenm said:

    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    SC has a point John - why the different tact re Indy and Brexit?

    It is mainly because if scotland had left the uk first time round using the pound and remaining within the eu it could have worked both giving stability with close links to the UK and allowing the Scots to manage their own preferences. Now in the current climate scotland has its main trading partner following a route of divergence with the eu and immigration controls. I dont think scotland can closely align with the eu as it wishes and trade successfully with its main trading partner in England in the longer term. Like it or not Scotland is tied to the uk through its links. Scotland is no Norway with a sovereign weath fund to smooth the ride to independence. To give one example of immigration Scots are more favourable than English.
    I get what you're saying but I think if we had left, remained in the EU and kept the pound we might be in a tricky position as the UK diverges and sets monetary policy with different goals.
    Nor is it proper independence if another country controls 'your' currency, interest rates etc. Assuming that other country allows you to use their currency.
    True. But of course, like all good politicians, the SNP aren't so much interested in the actual result, more in whatever they can sell as being a win.
    True, although leaving and then finding you haven't really left sounds a bit familiar.

    Also leaving and potentially finding that you have no functional currency would be a bit of a problem.
    "I spent most of my money on birds, booze and fast cars: the rest of it I just squandered." [George Best]
  • haydenm
    haydenm Posts: 2,997
    I suspect the sensible thing would be to use a Scottish pound pegged to the GBP and issued as it currently is by our banks up here, but again, having some sort of plan in place for these things is a fantasy.
  • aberdeen_lune
    aberdeen_lune Posts: 547
    I think the currency debate is interesting but it’s not the deciding question on whether to have a referendum or not.
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,142
    john80 said:

    rick_chasey said:

    SC has a point John - why the different tact re Indy and Brexit?

    It is mainly because if scotland had left the uk first time round using the pound and remaining within the eu it could have worked both giving stability with close links to the UK and allowing the Scots to manage their own preferences. Now in the current climate scotland has its main trading partner following a route of divergence with the eu and immigration controls. I dont think scotland can closely align with the eu as it wishes and trade successfully with its main trading partner in England in the longer term. Like it or not Scotland is tied to the uk through its links. Scotland is no Norway with a sovereign weath fund to smooth the ride to independence. To give one example of immigration Scots are more favourable than English.
    So you are telling those in Scotland that they shouldn't have a ref and decide their own future because the larger union is saying it would be bad economically for them to diverge from its near neighbours?
  • haydenm
    haydenm Posts: 2,997
    aberdeen_lune said:

    I think the currency debate is interesting but it’s not the deciding question on whether to have a referendum or not.

    Personally I think it is one of the main factors, last time we were asked to vote without any idea what was going to happen so even if I was for it emotionally it would be an extremely risky prospect
  • aberdeen_lune
    aberdeen_lune Posts: 547
    So you have a choice to vote yes or no. There are lots of currency options. Any country restarting will have similar issues. Whether it’s pound scottish pound dollar or euro doesn’t bother me.

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