Scot Indy Ref #2

bompington

aberdeen_lune said:

The whole argument is there has been a major change from the last Indy ref. We were told the only way to stay in the EU is to vote remain. If we went independent the EU wouldn’t have us or it would take years to gain entry.

The majority of Scottish voters voted to remain in the EU during the EU referendum.

This is certainly the strongest argument for independence. But it doesn't seem to have changed the opinion of many people, judging by the polls: and there is a counter-argument that, if Brexit is a disaster, then Scexit would be far worse - the disastrous economic consequences (and not all the disastrous consequences would be economic ones, either) of Scexit would likely be far worse than the (still probably bad) consequences of Brexit.

aberdeen_lune said:

As long as Scotland remain in the UK we have very little say on anything as we only have >10% of the votes.

True for left-handers like me, too: we keep on getting outvoted by the Right.

aberdeen_lune said:

So we get dragged out of the EU against our will and get Tory governments we don’t vote for.

So presumably there was no case for independence in the 1950s, when the Tories' precursor (the Unonist party) not only won a majority of seats in Scotland but also provided the prime minister?
I don't see how you can hang the case for independence (or the reverse) on temporary conditions: who's to say, for example, that in an independent Scotland Labour might at some point in the future make a comeback, if for instance the SNP fades away once its objective is reached? And if Labour won in Westminster too, would that be grounds to reverse independence?

aberdeen_lune said:

The only way to have our own say is to be independent or to have some form of federal government relationship.

Ah yes, "our own" (go look up what "sinn fein" means). This reveals the heart of the nationalist argument: that "we" are somehow a bloc, all with the same needs, wants and opinions, but different from that lot over there.
Perhaps that explains John Mason's incredible rant about which people he refuses to represent - the very fact that people who disagree with him exist in his constituency (he got a reasonable majority but on a 43% turnout) is an affront to his core values.

aberdeen_lune

The Torys have been a minority in Scotland by your own admission for more than 50 years yet we still get saddled with Tory governments. That doesn’t sell staying in the union to me.

The SNP main reason to exist is for independence. Once Scotland is independent I’d imagine we will have a better choice of parties to vote for. I can see the SNP splintering into right and left at that point.

I see no reason to deny Scotland another vote. The longer it is blocked the stronger the case for independence grows. Couple that with any negative effects of Brexit and the clamour for independence in a couple of years will be deafening. The best thing the Torys could do would be grant the section 31 while the unionists have a chance of winning. Wait too long and the unionist will have no chance.

Longshot

aberdeen_lune said:

As long as Scotland remain in the UK we have very little say on anything as we only have >10% of the votes. So we get dragged out of the EU against our will and get Tory governments we don’t vote for. The only way to have our own say is to be independent or to have some form of federal government relationship.

So pretty much the same as anyone else in the UK who voted Remain and/or other than Tory?

rjsterry

aberdeen_lune said:

The Torys have been a minority in Scotland by your own admission for more than 50 years yet we still get saddled with Tory governments. That doesn’t sell staying in the union to me.

The SNP main reason to exist is for independence. Once Scotland is independent I’d imagine we will have a better choice of parties to vote for. I can see the SNP splintering into right and left at that point.

I see no reason to deny Scotland another vote. The longer it is blocked the stronger the case for independence grows. Couple that with any negative effects of Brexit and the clamour for independence in a couple of years will be deafening. The best thing the Torys could do would be grant the section 31 while the unionists have a chance of winning. Wait too long and the unionist will have no chance.

Greater London didn't vote Tory either and there's more of us. Should we get a referendum on independence?

Longshot

rjsterry said:

aberdeen_lune said:

The Torys have been a minority in Scotland by your own admission for more than 50 years yet we still get saddled with Tory governments. That doesn’t sell staying in the union to me.

The SNP main reason to exist is for independence. Once Scotland is independent I’d imagine we will have a better choice of parties to vote for. I can see the SNP splintering into right and left at that point.

I see no reason to deny Scotland another vote. The longer it is blocked the stronger the case for independence grows. Couple that with any negative effects of Brexit and the clamour for independence in a couple of years will be deafening. The best thing the Torys could do would be grant the section 31 while the unionists have a chance of winning. Wait too long and the unionist will have no chance.

Greater London didn't vote Tory either and there's more of us. Should we get a referendum on independence?

If you can stretch that to the home counties (or at least Surrey) I'd be on board for that.

rick_chasey

EU wouldn’t necessarily allow Scotland in anyway.

A lot of awkward separatist politics it would need to balance.

bompington

rick_chasey said:

EU wouldn’t necessarily allow Scotland in anyway.

A lot of awkward separatist politics it would need to balance.

It would be a spectacular irony if the Nats managed to persuade enough people that the EU was sufficient reason to vote for independence, only for the EU to reject them...

Stevo_666

bompington said:

rick_chasey said:

EU wouldn’t necessarily allow Scotland in anyway.

A lot of awkward separatist politics it would need to balance.

It would be a spectacular irony if the Nats managed to persuade enough people that the EU was sufficient reason to vote for independence, only for the EU to reject them...

That would make me chuckle.

aberdeen_lune

They have already warmed the EU up to the idea. There is no showstopper. The little Englanders wont be sniggering into their bitter for long when they realise their once great empire is just them and Wales. Then Wales might go independent too.

haydenm

Stevo_666 said:

Have to say I am torn.

Part of me says let them go if they are going to be perpetually so grudging and ungrateful. Part of me says they signed up to a 'once in a generation' referendum on the subject so they need to live with the decision.

However, I think the tie breaker that swings it for me against another referendum is how much it will p!$$ off Wee Jimmy Krankie.

This is a weird paradox for me as a likely No voting person in Scotland, I don't really want there to be a second referendum but I also dislike some (not necessarily yours!) of the English-dwelling sentiment which largely revolves around stereotyping people living in Scotland. By definition of Indyref1, we don't want to go, letting us have a second referendum isn't the same as letting us go because we are ungrateful... I know that isn't really your point but you do see it a lot online and from people like my parents who would know better.

The other element is that Northern Ireland, London, Wales, North West and North East all spend more than the UK average per head spending along with Scotland but that is how averages work. Obviously that doesn't include tax revenue but it's not really clear cut, especially once you factor in the large rural population in Scotland and it's impact on service provision.

I pay an extra £500 a year in tax than I would if I moved 30 miles further south, I could save it and call Scottish people ungrateful

Stevo_666

aberdeen_lune said:

They have already warmed the EU up to the idea. There is no showstopper. The little Englanders wont be sniggering into their bitter for long when they realise their once great empire is just them and Wales. Then Wales might go independent too.

Whose currency would you use in the period between leaving the UK and joining the EU?

Stevo_666

haydenm said:

Stevo_666 said:

Have to say I am torn.

Part of me says let them go if they are going to be perpetually so grudging and ungrateful. Part of me says they signed up to a 'once in a generation' referendum on the subject so they need to live with the decision.

However, I think the tie breaker that swings it for me against another referendum is how much it will p!$$ off Wee Jimmy Krankie.

This is a weird paradox for me as a likely No voting person in Scotland, I don't really want there to be a second referendum but I also dislike some (not necessarily yours!) of the English-dwelling sentiment which largely revolves around stereotyping people living in Scotland. By definition of Indyref1, we don't want to go, letting us have a second referendum isn't the same as letting us go because we are ungrateful... I know that isn't really your point but you do see it a lot online and from people like my parents who would know better.

The other element is that Northern Ireland, London, Wales, North West and North East all spend more than the UK average per head spending along with Scotland but that is how averages work. Obviously that doesn't include tax revenue but it's not really clear cut, especially once you factor in the large rural population in Scotland and it's impact on service provision.

I pay an extra £500 a year in tax than I would if I moved 30 miles further south, I could save it and call Scottish people ungrateful

Clearly not everyone in Scotland has that attitude, but Miss Krankie certainly articulates it quite strongly on your behalf.

The point about funding clearly also applies to a lot of the other regions of the UK, but they aren't asking to leave so the point about funding themselves doesn't really come into it.

bompington

aberdeen_lune said:

They have already warmed the EU up to the idea. There is no showstopper. The little Englanders wont be sniggering into their bitter for long when they realise their once great empire is just them and Wales. Then Wales might go independent too.

One of the biggest blind spots for Nats is their failure to understand that they have way more in common with the Little Englanders than they realise.

laurentian

bompington said:

aberdeen_lune said:

They have already warmed the EU up to the idea. There is no showstopper. The little Englanders wont be sniggering into their bitter for long when they realise their once great empire is just them and Wales. Then Wales might go independent too.

One of the biggest blind spots for Nats is their failure to understand that they have way more in common with the Little Englanders than they realise.

Something I have thought for a long time - idealistically, I don't see a lot of difference between (some of) Sturgeon and Farage

orraloon

Niggly Farridge gets on the BBC Question Time etc etc lots and lots. Sturgeon doesn't. HTH.

rjsterry

laurentian said:

bompington said:

aberdeen_lune said:

They have already warmed the EU up to the idea. There is no showstopper. The little Englanders wont be sniggering into their bitter for long when they realise their once great empire is just them and Wales. Then Wales might go independent too.

One of the biggest blind spots for Nats is their failure to understand that they have way more in common with the Little Englanders than they realise.

Something I have thought for a long time - idealistically, I don't see a lot of difference between (some of) Sturgeon and Farage

Ideologically, surely. But yes, both nats.

haydenm

Stevo_666 said:

haydenm said:

Stevo_666 said:

Have to say I am torn.

Part of me says let them go if they are going to be perpetually so grudging and ungrateful. Part of me says they signed up to a 'once in a generation' referendum on the subject so they need to live with the decision.

However, I think the tie breaker that swings it for me against another referendum is how much it will p!$$ off Wee Jimmy Krankie.

This is a weird paradox for me as a likely No voting person in Scotland, I don't really want there to be a second referendum but I also dislike some (not necessarily yours!) of the English-dwelling sentiment which largely revolves around stereotyping people living in Scotland. By definition of Indyref1, we don't want to go, letting us have a second referendum isn't the same as letting us go because we are ungrateful... I know that isn't really your point but you do see it a lot online and from people like my parents who would know better.

The other element is that Northern Ireland, London, Wales, North West and North East all spend more than the UK average per head spending along with Scotland but that is how averages work. Obviously that doesn't include tax revenue but it's not really clear cut, especially once you factor in the large rural population in Scotland and it's impact on service provision.

I pay an extra £500 a year in tax than I would if I moved 30 miles further south, I could save it and call Scottish people ungrateful

Clearly not everyone in Scotland has that attitude, but Miss Krankie certainly articulates it quite strongly on your behalf.

The point about funding clearly also applies to a lot of the other regions of the UK, but they aren't asking to leave so the point about funding themselves doesn't really come into it.

We aren't asking to leave, "we're" asking for the ability to ask the question again. 44.7% of voters in 2014 wanted to which as the most current actual data we have says we don't want to leave. 33% of people in Wales would vote for independence if it meant remaining in the EU according to some polls.

If you asked people in England they would say something like 'well if they want it then we will vote for it to get it over the line for them to leave, ungrateful bast4rds', which doesn't really make a lot of sense when you think about it.

haydenm

laurentian said:

bompington said:

aberdeen_lune said:

They have already warmed the EU up to the idea. There is no showstopper. The little Englanders wont be sniggering into their bitter for long when they realise their once great empire is just them and Wales. Then Wales might go independent too.

One of the biggest blind spots for Nats is their failure to understand that they have way more in common with the Little Englanders than they realise.

Something I have thought for a long time - idealistically, I don't see a lot of difference between (some of) Sturgeon and Farage

I agree tbh

rjsterry

Stevo_666 said:

haydenm said:

Stevo_666 said:

Have to say I am torn.

Part of me says let them go if they are going to be perpetually so grudging and ungrateful. Part of me says they signed up to a 'once in a generation' referendum on the subject so they need to live with the decision.

However, I think the tie breaker that swings it for me against another referendum is how much it will p!$$ off Wee Jimmy Krankie.

This is a weird paradox for me as a likely No voting person in Scotland, I don't really want there to be a second referendum but I also dislike some (not necessarily yours!) of the English-dwelling sentiment which largely revolves around stereotyping people living in Scotland. By definition of Indyref1, we don't want to go, letting us have a second referendum isn't the same as letting us go because we are ungrateful... I know that isn't really your point but you do see it a lot online and from people like my parents who would know better.

The other element is that Northern Ireland, London, Wales, North West and North East all spend more than the UK average per head spending along with Scotland but that is how averages work. Obviously that doesn't include tax revenue but it's not really clear cut, especially once you factor in the large rural population in Scotland and it's impact on service provision.

I pay an extra £500 a year in tax than I would if I moved 30 miles further south, I could save it and call Scottish people ungrateful

Clearly not everyone in Scotland has that attitude, but Miss Krankie certainly articulates it quite strongly on your behalf.

The point about funding clearly also applies to a lot of the other regions of the UK, but they aren't asking to leave so the point about funding themselves doesn't really come into it.

Neither are the majority of Scots. Just a shouty minority.

aberdeen_lune

Scotland is not a region of the UK. That’s where your thought process is going awry. We are supposed to be a separate country in a union. The attitude on here is we are a troublesome region in the north. Keep treating us that way you are helping the independence cause.

haydenm

aberdeen_lune said:

Scotland is not a region of the UK. That’s where your thought process is going awry. We are supposed to be a separate country in a union. The attitude on here is we are a troublesome region in the north. Keep treating us that way you are helping the independence cause.

Agreed. Asking the English view on it is pretty pointless and mostly off the cuff comments about gratitude which winds up Yes voters even more. (I am English but have lived here for about 8 years)

This is also consistent with my views on the UK remaining in the EU, I believe it is perfectly possible to be a 'proud' and 'free thinking' nation which chooses to be part of a union. I was quite frustrated with a colleague who suggested the EU were like the Nazis, the whole point is that we are free to leave but don't because it doesn't benefit us, in the same way as Scotland and rUK (aside from the fact we aren't actually allowed to leave, which does seem a bit odd even as a No voter).

My other thoughts on Indyref2 is that it seems a shame to change over 300 years of history at great economic risk because we don't like the current government. I know people in Thurso who hate Inverness, people in Inverness who hate Edinburgh, people in Edinburgh who hate Westminster and people in Westminster who hate the EU. there are perfectly good reasons to think those things but distilling it down to it's constituent parts, to me, seems less than the total combined.

Longshot

aberdeen_lune said:

Scotland is not a region of the UK. That’s where your thought process is going awry. We are supposed to be a separate country in a union. The attitude on here is we are a troublesome region in the north. Keep treating us that way you are helping the independence cause.

To be fair, most of your brethren blame the English for everything, including the weather. Our tennis players don't talk about "Anyone but Scotland". Our football fans don't support Argentina when they're playing Scotland.

For someone who is the leader of less than 10% of the population, Sturgeon is on my TV and radio far too much and for that reason alone Scottish Independence would be worth it.

I don't think you're ungrateful as a nation but there's only so much institutional hatred of the English that I can listen to in any one day.

Nice scenery though.

pblakeney

Tennis was perhaps not the best example to choose. 😂😂😂

haydenm

Longshot said:

aberdeen_lune said:

Scotland is not a region of the UK. That’s where your thought process is going awry. We are supposed to be a separate country in a union. The attitude on here is we are a troublesome region in the north. Keep treating us that way you are helping the independence cause.

To be fair, most of your brethren blame the English for everything, including the weather. Our tennis players don't talk about "Anyone but Scotland". Our football fans don't support Argentina when they're playing Scotland.

For someone who is the leader of less than 10% of the population, Sturgeon is on my TV and radio far too much and for that reason alone Scottish Independence would be worth it.

I don't think you're ungrateful as a nation but there's only so much institutional hatred of the English that I can listen to in any one day.

Nice scenery though.

"They don't support our football team" is a fairly childish reason to advocate for Scottish independence The anti English thing is a sports rivalry like Gloucester vs Bath. It spills into a dislike of the arrogance of little Englanders but I imagine you'd find that in most of the UK.

Sturgeon is on TV because it's a fairly big existential issue to be honest, hardly surprising.

Since I've lived here I haven't had anyone noticeably treat me badly for having a sourthern English accent, I get more comments in Yorkshire than I do up here. The reality is that each 'side' thinks it's a much bigger issue than it is.

Even an Englishman even I get faintly annoyed about England and south east bias in reporting on most news outlets. Obviously there is a huge population and you'd expect most stuff to happen there but it's more things like people referring to 'England' rather than the UK, or talking about Scotland as a single place like Brighton despite it being 30% of the UK land area. I can see how if you were a Scottish nationalist how it might wind you up more than it does to me.

capt_slog

Would independence mean full financial independence too?

rick_chasey

Seriously, any independence mechanism needs to consider EU membership because from what I remember there is no route back into the EU as a separatist country unless they get officially recognised as a new sovereign state and then go through the full application like a Romania or something. And that also means being part of the Euro.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

Seriously, any independence mechanism needs to consider EU membership because from what I remember there is no route back into the EU as a separatist country unless they get officially recognised as a new sovereign state and then go through the full application like a Romania or something. And that also means being part of the Euro.

It's entirely possible that the SNP leadership know that they can't ever actually allow independence to happen because it's a terrible idea for Scotland and the SNP, but to keep the dream alive is very useful for getting the vote out.

aberdeen_lune

Keep taking the tablets dear boy. You never know they may eventually work.

rjsterry

I'm not being entirely serious.

Stevo_666

aberdeen_lune said:

Keep taking the tablets dear boy. You never know they may eventually work.

What are those, referendum tablets?