LEAVE the Conservative Party and save your country!

First.Aspect

Regardless, it still seems daft to spend 2/3 of the money for half the project and a quarter of the conomic benefit.

pangolin

Conomic is a good freudian slip

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

13 years of government. Can't build one railway.

You of all people should support this decision as it is the ultimate piece of keynesianism economics.

I don't think a 15+ year project can be either side of a response to where we are in an economic cycle.

They've had the hole digging stage this. This is the fill them up bit.

Aren't we dependent on which way the ONS revises its statistics whether we want spades in the ground at all?

That's always been the problem with the theory. It's not always obvious which stage the economy is in. At the moment, the UK may be in recession, but it's a full employment recession with loads of inflation.

If I thought that counter cyclical spending was a good idea then I would freeze public sector pay in the boom times and then would turn on the taps in a demand led recession.

All this digging holes and building railway line is very 20th century

Not sure why you are so keen to advertise your ignorance of the subject. Europe and Asia are significantly expanding their HSR networks.

https://www.railtech.com/infrastructure/2023/01/25/from-patchwork-to-true-european-high-speed-rail-network-the-costs-and-benefits/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#:~:text=Currently, the HSR extends to,(43,000 mi) in 2035.

First.Aspect

pangolin said:

Conomic is a good freudian slip

Nice. Perhaps the Samsung keyboard uses some form of AI after all.

kingstongraham

briantrumpet said:

pblakeney said:

briantrumpet said:

pblakeney said:

briantrumpet said:

So, this is like the blanket 20mph speed limit in Wales?

I've never been clear on that in the first place as we reuse takeaway containers. 🤔

Is that blanket reusement of takeaway containers (i.e, just some of them?)

I rarely have takeaways (other than the odd fishanchips), but Mackie's ice cream containers are good for fridge & freezer duties.

We don't have that many, 6 per year maybe, so yes; blanket. 😉
They don't last forever and get discoloured. I'd also add that they are recyclable.

I think the next logical step will be for Sunak to announce that recycling itself is too woke.

That mobile phones in schools policy is a recycled one of Gavin Williamson 😳

rjsterry

Andy Street really showing up his supposed superiors

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

13 years of government. Can't build one railway.

You of all people should support this decision as it is the ultimate piece of keynesianism economics.

I don't think a 15+ year project can be either side of a response to where we are in an economic cycle.

They've had the hole digging stage this. This is the fill them up bit.

Aren't we dependent on which way the ONS revises its statistics whether we want spades in the ground at all?

That's always been the problem with the theory. It's not always obvious which stage the economy is in. At the moment, the UK may be in recession, but it's a full employment recession with loads of inflation.

If I thought that counter cyclical spending was a good idea then I would freeze public sector pay in the boom times and then would turn on the taps in a demand led recession.

All this digging holes and building railway line is very 20th century

Not sure why you are so keen to advertise your ignorance of the subject. Europe and Asia are significantly expanding their HSR networks.

https://www.railtech.com/infrastructure/2023/01/25/from-patchwork-to-true-european-high-speed-rail-network-the-costs-and-benefits/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#:~:text=Currently, the HSR extends to,(43,000 mi) in 2035.

It was a reference to 20th century economics and not 20th tech.

rjsterry

Think you're being over-generous. There's plenty of 'why do we need railways when we have MSTeams?' chat doing the rounds.

Pross

rjsterry said:

Think you're being over-generous. There's plenty of 'why do we need railways when we have MSTeams?' chat doing the rounds.

Doesn’t that conflict with JRM? He presumably wants everyone travelling in the golden age of steam.

kingstongraham

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Think you're being over-generous. There's plenty of 'why do we need railways when we have MSTeams?' chat doing the rounds.

Doesn’t that conflict with JRM? He presumably wants everyone travelling in the golden age of steam.

His big announcement today was that he wants to eat Australian hormone injected beef. So much for the British farmer.

rjsterry

kingstongraham said:

Pross said:

rjsterry said:

Think you're being over-generous. There's plenty of 'why do we need railways when we have MSTeams?' chat doing the rounds.

Doesn’t that conflict with JRM? He presumably wants everyone travelling in the golden age of steam.

His big announcement today was that he wants to eat Australian hormone injected beef. So much for the British farmer.

There must be an extremely filthy joke in there somewhere.

TheBigBean

rjsterry said:

Think you're being over-generous. There's plenty of 'why do we need railways when we have MSTeams?' chat doing the rounds.

Surrey-commuter may not like trains, but his reference was clearly to Keynes in my opinion.

briantrumpet

Seriously, what is the point of doing interviews if the interviewee either just regurgitates pre-scripted talking points, ignores questions entirely, or just plain lies? This is painful.

https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1708913451710484494

rick_chasey

https://twitter.com/bbcnews/status/1708921064116416580?s=46&t=Q7O5dnx-0MXQv9qE3vz1vg

First.Aspect

Most renters NOT addicts.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

13 years of government. Can't build one railway.

You of all people should support this decision as it is the ultimate piece of keynesianism economics.

I don't think a 15+ year project can be either side of a response to where we are in an economic cycle.

They've had the hole digging stage this. This is the fill them up bit.

Aren't we dependent on which way the ONS revises its statistics whether we want spades in the ground at all?

That's always been the problem with the theory. It's not always obvious which stage the economy is in. At the moment, the UK may be in recession, but it's a full employment recession with loads of inflation.

If I thought that counter cyclical spending was a good idea then I would freeze public sector pay in the boom times and then would turn on the taps in a demand led recession.

All this digging holes and building railway line is very 20th century

Not sure why you are so keen to advertise your ignorance of the subject. Europe and Asia are significantly expanding their HSR networks.

https://www.railtech.com/infrastructure/2023/01/25/from-patchwork-to-true-european-high-speed-rail-network-the-costs-and-benefits/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#:~:text=Currently, the HSR extends to,(43,000 mi) in 2035.

I am not sure comparing China to England is helpful. The longest stretch between stations is between the Scrubs and Birmingham which barely gives it time to reach top speed before it will be time to start slowing down. But you are right that I know nothing about building train lines so there must be a good reason why they specced it to run at 240mph.

kingstongraham

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

13 years of government. Can't build one railway.

You of all people should support this decision as it is the ultimate piece of keynesianism economics.

I don't think a 15+ year project can be either side of a response to where we are in an economic cycle.

They've had the hole digging stage this. This is the fill them up bit.

Aren't we dependent on which way the ONS revises its statistics whether we want spades in the ground at all?

That's always been the problem with the theory. It's not always obvious which stage the economy is in. At the moment, the UK may be in recession, but it's a full employment recession with loads of inflation.

If I thought that counter cyclical spending was a good idea then I would freeze public sector pay in the boom times and then would turn on the taps in a demand led recession.

All this digging holes and building railway line is very 20th century

Not sure why you are so keen to advertise your ignorance of the subject. Europe and Asia are significantly expanding their HSR networks.

https://www.railtech.com/infrastructure/2023/01/25/from-patchwork-to-true-european-high-speed-rail-network-the-costs-and-benefits/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#:~:text=Currently, the HSR extends to,(43,000 mi) in 2035.

I am not sure comparing China to England is helpful. The longest stretch between stations is between the Scrubs and Birmingham which barely gives it time to reach top speed before it will be time to start slowing down. But you are right that I know nothing about building train lines so there must be a good reason why they specced it to run at 240mph.

They're obsessed with world beating plans.

photonic69

pangolin said:

Conomic is a good freudian slip

Colonic snip?

HS2 - I think most people thought when it was first mooted that it was a collosal waste of money. Now proven. I guess we are expecting the current idiots in charge to be beholden to their commitments to implement it now its got this far. I've always thought it was a ridiculous scheme. Just to put into perspective - the 120 miles of the Suez canal was built in 10 years by men using spades. OK, so a few of them died but it was a different world 150 years ago. But still, 120 miles of a canal, dug by hand is a far far bigger project than HS2.
In the Victorian era 16,000 miles of track were built in 55 years! Crazy to think with all this technology and equipment we are building stuff slower than ever at 10x the cost. Weird, huh?

rjsterry

surrey_commuter said:

rjsterry said:

surrey_commuter said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

TheBigBean said:

kingstongraham said:

surrey_commuter said:

rick_chasey said:

13 years of government. Can't build one railway.

You of all people should support this decision as it is the ultimate piece of keynesianism economics.

I don't think a 15+ year project can be either side of a response to where we are in an economic cycle.

They've had the hole digging stage this. This is the fill them up bit.

Aren't we dependent on which way the ONS revises its statistics whether we want spades in the ground at all?

That's always been the problem with the theory. It's not always obvious which stage the economy is in. At the moment, the UK may be in recession, but it's a full employment recession with loads of inflation.

If I thought that counter cyclical spending was a good idea then I would freeze public sector pay in the boom times and then would turn on the taps in a demand led recession.

All this digging holes and building railway line is very 20th century

Not sure why you are so keen to advertise your ignorance of the subject. Europe and Asia are significantly expanding their HSR networks.

https://www.railtech.com/infrastructure/2023/01/25/from-patchwork-to-true-european-high-speed-rail-network-the-costs-and-benefits/

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China#:~:text=Currently, the HSR extends to,(43,000 mi) in 2035.

I am not sure comparing China to England is helpful. The longest stretch between stations is between the Scrubs and Birmingham which barely gives it time to reach top speed before it will be time to start slowing down. But you are right that I know nothing about building train lines so there must be a good reason why they specced it to run at 240mph.

For the third or fourth time, that is just the standard specification for modern high speed rail networks are built to. All the European HSR network, to which HS1 is connected, are built or will be upgraded to 300kmh. 125mph was the late 1960s standard. I think you have you have mis-read or misheard the point about acceleration distances. In a technical review the question was asked as to whether trains could be run above 250mph. *That* was found to be unfeasible due to acceleration and braking distances as well as increased energy demand. The decision was therefore taken to limit speeds to 240mph.

skyblueamateur

photonic69 said:

pangolin said:

Conomic is a good freudian slip

Colonic snip?

HS2 - I think most people thought when it was first mooted that it was a collosal waste of money. Now proven. I guess we are expecting the current idiots in charge to be beholden to their commitments to implement it now its got this far. I've always thought it was a ridiculous scheme. Just to put into perspective - the 120 miles of the Suez canal was built in 10 years by men using spades. OK, so a few of them died but it was a different world 150 years ago. But still, 120 miles of a canal, dug by hand is a far far bigger project than HS2.
In the Victorian era 16,000 miles of track were built in 55 years! Crazy to think with all this technology and equipment we are building stuff slower than ever at 10x the cost. Weird, huh?

That’s what happens when you have to tunnel under everything because NIMBY’s in Tory heartlands would explode with fury otherwise

skyblueamateur

Rumours that Northern Powerhouse Rail from Liverpool to Hull will also be scrapped.

It’s okay though, they’ll bung a few quid in to fill in some potholes.

The North really is held in utter contempt.

rick_chasey

photonic69 said:

pangolin said:

Conomic is a good freudian slip

Colonic snip?

HS2 - I think most people thought when it was first mooted that it was a collosal waste of money. Now proven. I guess we are expecting the current idiots in charge to be beholden to their commitments to implement it now its got this far. I've always thought it was a ridiculous scheme. Just to put into perspective - the 120 miles of the Suez canal was built in 10 years by men using spades. OK, so a few of them died but it was a different world 150 years ago. But still, 120 miles of a canal, dug by hand is a far far bigger project than HS2.
In the Victorian era 16,000 miles of track were built in 55 years! Crazy to think with all this technology and equipment we are building stuff slower than ever at 10x the cost. Weird, huh?

There’s an argument I have heard that the reason we can’t really build many cathedrals like in the past isn’t just a question of resource priority but also because labour so so much more expensive than it used to be, so the cost of all those wonderful little details that litter these buildings is exorbitant nowadays.

Jezyboy

skyblueamateur said:

Rumours that Northern Powerhouse Rail from Liverpool to Hull will also be scrapped.

It’s okay though, they’ll bung a few quid in to fill in some potholes.

The North really is held in utter contempt.

Given some of it runs on a section of HS2, that's maybe not a surprise

pblakeney

They could simplify things simply by stating levelling up has been cancelled.

Pross

I bet those Red Wall voters that backed the Tories last time are pleased with their decision.

Anyway Rishi isn’t going to be rushed into anything which I take to mean he’ll cancel it when it is too late to actually stop anything and will rely on Labour saying they’re going to restart it.

pblakeney

Pross said:

I bet those Red Wall voters that backed the Tories last time are pleased with their decision.

Anyway Rishi isn’t going to be rushed into anything which I take to mean he’ll cancel it when it is too late to actually stop anything and will rely on Labour saying they’re going to restart it.

Then blame labour for the disaster, or take credit for the initiative.

rjsterry

rick_chasey said:

photonic69 said:

pangolin said:

Conomic is a good freudian slip

Colonic snip?

HS2 - I think most people thought when it was first mooted that it was a collosal waste of money. Now proven. I guess we are expecting the current idiots in charge to be beholden to their commitments to implement it now its got this far. I've always thought it was a ridiculous scheme. Just to put into perspective - the 120 miles of the Suez canal was built in 10 years by men using spades. OK, so a few of them died but it was a different world 150 years ago. But still, 120 miles of a canal, dug by hand is a far far bigger project than HS2.
In the Victorian era 16,000 miles of track were built in 55 years! Crazy to think with all this technology and equipment we are building stuff slower than ever at 10x the cost. Weird, huh?

There’s an argument I have heard that the reason we can’t really build many cathedrals like in the past isn’t just a question of resource priority but also because labour so so much more expensive than it used to be, so the cost of all those wonderful little details that litter these buildings is exorbitant nowadays.

There's an argument, but it's largely nonsense. Buildings have always been hugely expensive Buildings like cathedrals have a team of tradesmen constantly repairing them, so it's not a case of skills being lost either. We are perfectly capable of building to that standard but the Church is not as wealthy as it was and the state is beset by ditherers.

rjsterry

photonic69 said:

pangolin said:

Conomic is a good freudian slip

Colonic snip?

HS2 - I think most people thought when it was first mooted that it was a collosal waste of money. Now proven. I guess we are expecting the current idiots in charge to be beholden to their commitments to implement it now its got this far. I've always thought it was a ridiculous scheme. Just to put into perspective - the 120 miles of the Suez canal was built in 10 years by men using spades. OK, so a few of them died but it was a different world 150 years ago. But still, 120 miles of a canal, dug by hand is a far far bigger project than HS2.
In the Victorian era 16,000 miles of track were built in 55 years! Crazy to think with all this technology and equipment we are building stuff slower than ever at 10x the cost. Weird, huh?

120,000.

It was 120,000 dead to build the Suez canal.

It was largely built by forced labour. And the British government opposed its construction.

Jezyboy

pblakeney said:

Pross said:

I bet those Red Wall voters that backed the Tories last time are pleased with their decision.

Anyway Rishi isn’t going to be rushed into anything which I take to mean he’ll cancel it when it is too late to actually stop anything and will rely on Labour saying they’re going to restart it.

Then blame labour for the disaster, or take credit for the initiative.

Meh, Labour can blame many of the future problems on the Tory dithering and claim the only real way to realise value from the project is to complete it.

First.Aspect

I mean hand wringing aside, won't Labour be poised to make the announcement that it will go ahead about 5 mins after Sunak cancels it? So this whole thing is just an exercise in how bad it will play out for the Tories.

I think that, along with the pledges to cancel the ban on pork scratchings, and allow local councils to create more parking spaces outside the off-licence, the Tory's genuinely though that the idea to cancel HS2 would be met with a chorus of "about time".