Boris Johnson's Burkha Comments

verylonglegs

I suspect my age group does have a tag bestowed on it by the media but I've no idea what it is.

Jez mon

Ben6899 wrote:

I don't think (m)any of the contributors to Cake Stop are actually millennials. Are they?

Fairly sure Rick would fall in to the band, I know I do...

(what technically count as millennials are older than people think)

shortfall

Re Millenials. According to Wikipedia:

"There are no precise dates for when this cohort starts or ends; demographers and researchers typically use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years."

Using that definition I would imagine there's quite a few posting in cake shop.

Stevo_666

Shortfall wrote:

Re Millenials. According to Wikipedia:

"There are no precise dates for when this cohort starts or ends; demographers and researchers typically use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years."

Using that definition I would imagine there's quite a few posting in cake shop.

Does that make you a millennial Ben?

verylonglegs

Makes me the later part of Generation X, whatever that means.

Ben6899

Stevo 666 wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Re Millenials. According to Wikipedia:

"There are no precise dates for when this cohort starts or ends; demographers and researchers typically use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years."

Using that definition I would imagine there's quite a few posting in cake shop.

Does that make you a millennial Ben?

1980 here. So arguably just!

That's about the only correlation though.

Stevo_666

Ben6899 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Re Millenials. According to Wikipedia:

"There are no precise dates for when this cohort starts or ends; demographers and researchers typically use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years."

Using that definition I would imagine there's quite a few posting in cake shop.

Does that make you a millennial Ben?

1980 here. So arguably just!

That's about the only correlation though.

Well you do seem to be a liberal as well

finchy

Ben6899 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Re Millenials. According to Wikipedia:

"There are no precise dates for when this cohort starts or ends; demographers and researchers typically use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years."

Using that definition I would imagine there's quite a few posting in cake shop.

Does that make you a millennial Ben?

1980 here. So arguably just!

That's about the only correlation though.

Do I get to be a millenial? I was born on the first day of the 1980s.

sgt.pepper

rjsterry wrote:

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

finchy wrote:

Sgt.Pepper wrote:

It's irrefutable that Islam has an appalling attitude towards women, and the burqa is a living embodiment of that.

AFAIK, there is no requirement in Islam for women to wear the Burqa, and the Koran is ambiguous about women's dress, requiring only that men and women dress "modestly". Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

This was the translation I had heard, though recently I was informed that there are also different interpretations. Either way, there's no doubt that as a rule its attitude towards women (and homosexuality) is dreadful. The fact the modern """""Left"""""" has decided that it's beyond criticism is insane.

As compared to Christianity or Judaism?

Yes, considerably. The fact other religions are prone to a 6 in discrimination doesn't excuse Islam from being a 9.

rjsterry wrote:

I think Polly Toynbee is pretty left wing and also fairly critical of the burqa, so not sure where the idea that Islam is beyond criticism comes from. Maybe you are conflating criticism with general abuse.

Not at all. I'm surprised she's critical of it, but then again she became successful before the rise of identity politics. And there is a very strong movement on the modern "Left" that maintains Islam is beyond criticism. Political discourse has become increasingly warped over the last 5-10 years.

robert88

It's not really about the merits of the burkha, more about Johnson's immature, dumbed down, Trump style approach to politics. Increasingly Johnson appears to be crawling up Trump's rectum.

shirley_basso

Robert88 wrote:

It's not really about the merits of the burkha, more about Johnson's immature, dumbed down, Trump style approach to politics. Increasingly Johnson appears to be crawling up Trump's rectum.

Because for some god awful reason, trumps brand of politics seems to be working.

ballysmate

sungod wrote:

would the great boris have been equally lauded had he said jewish woman in sheitels look like cousin itt? or that nuns look like something out of blackadder?

of course not, he was clearly playing to his bigot fanbase, always goes down well with the daily mail and other fascists, with that following he can do no wrong

he's a proven liar, and was a serial incompetent at the foreign office, he just makes society nastier

On the subject of nuns clothing, a nun's habit has for years been acceptable as an item of fancy dress. You can even get 'sexy' habits. Why are fancy dress burqas deemed racist and religiously offensive.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/amaz ... 29461.html

Btw I am not trying to paint Catholics/Christians as victims here. God fearing religions are as deserving as as much satire as Allah fearing ones.

But why does society seem to have double standards?
Imams and whores party anyone?

tailwindhome

Ballysmate wrote:

sungod wrote:

would the great boris have been equally lauded had he said jewish woman in sheitels look like cousin itt? or that nuns look like something out of blackadder?

of course not, he was clearly playing to his bigot fanbase, always goes down well with the daily mail and other fascists, with that following he can do no wrong

he's a proven liar, and was a serial incompetent at the foreign office, he just makes society nastier

On the subject of nuns clothing, a nun's habit has for years been acceptable as an item of fancy dress. You can even get 'sexy' habits. Why are fancy dress burqas deemed racist and religiously offensive.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/amaz ... 29461.html

Btw I am not trying to paint Catholics/Christians as victims here. God fearing religions are as deserving as as much satire as Allah fearing ones.

But why does society seem to have double standards?
Imams and whores party anyone?

Context.

Picking on a minority and in particular an oppressed and vulnerable minority is bullying.

Picking on the established churches isn't.

ballysmate

Robert88 wrote:

It's not really about the merits of the burkha, more about Johnson's immature, dumbed down, Trump style approach to politics. Increasingly Johnson appears to be crawling up Trump's rectum.

So it is not about how ridiculous something is, it is about it being ridiculed or how it is ridiculed?

Perhaps you are right. BJ may have been better saying that although the burqa is oppressive, restrictive and divisive, it should not be government policy to ban it as some European and Muslim majority countries have done.

ballysmate

TailWindHome wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

sungod wrote:

would the great boris have been equally lauded had he said jewish woman in sheitels look like cousin itt? or that nuns look like something out of blackadder?

of course not, he was clearly playing to his bigot fanbase, always goes down well with the daily mail and other fascists, with that following he can do no wrong

he's a proven liar, and was a serial incompetent at the foreign office, he just makes society nastier

On the subject of nuns clothing, a nun's habit has for years been acceptable as an item of fancy dress. You can even get 'sexy' habits. Why are fancy dress burqas deemed racist and religiously offensive.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/amaz ... 29461.html

Btw I am not trying to paint Catholics/Christians as victims here. God fearing religions are as deserving as as much satire as Allah fearing ones.

But why does society seem to have double standards?
Imams and whores party anyone?

Context.

Picking on a minority and in particular an oppressed and vulnerable minority is bullying.

Picking on the established churches isn't.

World's second largest religion. Be careful - denigrating Islam as not being established may mark you as being Islamophobic by some on here.

Are you truly saying that you can only ridicule something, no matter how ridiculous it is, that is only practised by the majority? Any practice of belief held to be the preserve of the minority is off limits?

Your last sentence seems to give the impression that some religions are beyond criticism, whilst others are fair game. I hope I have misunderstood.

rjsterry

Ballysmate wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

sungod wrote:

would the great boris have been equally lauded had he said jewish woman in sheitels look like cousin itt? or that nuns look like something out of blackadder?

of course not, he was clearly playing to his bigot fanbase, always goes down well with the daily mail and other fascists, with that following he can do no wrong

he's a proven liar, and was a serial incompetent at the foreign office, he just makes society nastier

On the subject of nuns clothing, a nun's habit has for years been acceptable as an item of fancy dress. You can even get 'sexy' habits. Why are fancy dress burqas deemed racist and religiously offensive.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/amaz ... 29461.html

Btw I am not trying to paint Catholics/Christians as victims here. God fearing religions are as deserving as as much satire as Allah fearing ones.

But why does society seem to have double standards?
Imams and whores party anyone?

Context.

Picking on a minority and in particular an oppressed and vulnerable minority is bullying.

Picking on the established churches isn't.

World's second largest religion. Be careful - denigrating Islam as not being established may mark you as being Islamophobic by some on here.

Are you truly saying that you can only ridicule something, no matter how ridiculous it is, that is only practised by the majority? Any practice of belief held to be the preserve of the minority is off limits?

Your last sentence seems to give the impression that some religions are beyond criticism, whilst others are fair game. I hope I have misunderstood.

Of course you have. Not sure why you're so desperate to twist what people are writing to prove some imagined oversensitivity or hypocrisy. Nobody has said criticism Islam is off limits. In any case Johnson's comments are just him ridiculing the women concerned, rather than criticising the religious beliefs behind them.

ballysmate

rjsterry wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

sungod wrote:

would the great boris have been equally lauded had he said jewish woman in sheitels look like cousin itt? or that nuns look like something out of blackadder?

of course not, he was clearly playing to his bigot fanbase, always goes down well with the daily mail and other fascists, with that following he can do no wrong

he's a proven liar, and was a serial incompetent at the foreign office, he just makes society nastier

On the subject of nuns clothing, a nun's habit has for years been acceptable as an item of fancy dress. You can even get 'sexy' habits. Why are fancy dress burqas deemed racist and religiously offensive.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/amaz ... 29461.html

Btw I am not trying to paint Catholics/Christians as victims here. God fearing religions are as deserving as as much satire as Allah fearing ones.

But why does society seem to have double standards?
Imams and whores party anyone?

Context.

Picking on a minority and in particular an oppressed and vulnerable minority is bullying.

Picking on the established churches isn't.

World's second largest religion. Be careful - denigrating Islam as not being established may mark you as being Islamophobic by some on here.

Are you truly saying that you can only ridicule something, no matter how ridiculous it is, that is only practised by the majority? Any practice of belief held to be the preserve of the minority is off limits?

Your last sentence seems to give the impression that some religions are beyond criticism, whilst others are fair game. I hope I have misunderstood.

Of course you have. Not sure why you're so desperate to twist what people are writing to prove some imagined oversensitivity or hypocrisy. Nobody has said criticism Islam is off limits. In any case Johnson's comments are just him ridiculing the women concerned, rather than criticising the religious beliefs behind them.

Not trying to twist anything.

Picking on the established churches

Certainly gives the impression that not all religions are equal. Perhaps there is a list of churches/religions that it is socially acceptable to criticise?


I actually wrote

give the impression that some religions are beyond criticism

.

Did not refer to any particular religion. In fact I said religions, in the plural. It is you who seem to have assumed I was singling out Islam.

PS. This tangential discussion is as a result of my replying to someone else's whataboutery when they introduced the customs/clothing of other religions into the thread.

surrey_commuter

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

A selection of views from women directly affected by Johnson's comments.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... nson-burqa

You should post that well known right winger Polly Toynbee's article too, according to some on here she is espousing racist views in print maybe have her up for hate crime.

Interesting - got a link to that Toynbee article?

Here you go. https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... slim-women

As mentioned, she's a patron of Humanists UK, so pretty opposed to religion of all kinds. The article seems fairly consistent with that, without the need for the schoolboy insults.

I take it nobody needed Boris' "joke" explaining to them? I assume you all "got" the letterbox reference? After all, as has been pointed out, his was only repeating an earlier joke. So it seems that the ones on here that are offended by his comments are not so much offended by something that is obvious but are offended that someone said it.

Perhaps they prefer this

“I wouldn’t want my four year old looked after by somebody wearing a burka. I wouldn’t want my elderly mum looked after by somebody wearing a burka. They need to be able to show their face,”


Emily Thornberry, our would be Foreign Sec under Jezza. Islamophobic?

Or this?

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... amed-image

I would like to sheepishly put my hand in the air and say that I need the Boris "joke" explaining to me

if anybody can explain Boris's "joke" it would be much appreciated

DeVlaeminck

Surrey Commuter wrote:

[


if anybody can explain Boris's "joke" it would be much appreciated

What his comment that the niqab makes women look like a post box? He was repeating a joke made on TV by Stephen Fry about a picture of Charles Windsor being introduced to a woman in a niqab and Fry says in Charles' voice something like I've just posted a letter in that. Nobody thought it particularly offensive because Stephen Fry isn't a Tory MP.

TheBigBean

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

[


if anybody can explain Boris's "joke" it would be much appreciated

What his comment that the niqab makes women look like a post box? He was repeating a joke made on TV by Stephen Fry about a picture of Charles Windsor being introduced to a woman in a niqab and Fry says in Charles' voice something like I've just posted a letter in that. Nobody thought it particularly offensive because Stephen Fry isn't a Tory MP.

Stephen Fry often seems to get a pass. I should add him to the trivial things that annoy me thread.

veronese68

Am I the only one that thinks politicians should be held to a higher standard than comedians?

surrey_commuter

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

[


if anybody can explain Boris's "joke" it would be much appreciated

What his comment that the niqab makes women look like a post box? He was repeating a joke made on TV by Stephen Fry about a picture of Charles Windsor being introduced to a woman in a niqab and Fry says in Charles' voice something like I've just posted a letter in that. Nobody thought it particularly offensive because Stephen Fry isn't a Tory MP.

to me that is a visual joke mocking Charles's perceived racism (or other worldliness)

I don't see how that relates to

"I would go further and say that it is absolutely ridiculous that people should choose to go around looking like letter boxes."

"a female student turned up at school or at a university lecture looking like a bank robber"

rjsterry

Veronese68 wrote:

Am I the only one that thinks politicians should be held to a higher standard than comedians?

No.

BelgianBeerGeek

rjsterry wrote:

Veronese68 wrote:

Am I the only one that thinks politicians should be held to a higher standard than comedians?

No.

I'm with you two on this.

BelgianBeerGeek

Don't know if anyone else saw this on BBC4 the other night: "What Do Artists Do All Day?" This episode followed the photographer Mahtab Hussain, known for his portraits of young Muslims. You can get it on Iplayer. It's quite interesting.
Some of the reasons young Muslim women give for wearing various forms of head covering are quite interesting. The film does not explore this specifically, but one of the reasons for wearing head coverings is because they know it annoys certain people.
Youth sticking two fingers up to the older generation - who'd have thought it?

rjsterry

Ballysmate wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

sungod wrote:

would the great boris have been equally lauded had he said jewish woman in sheitels look like cousin itt? or that nuns look like something out of blackadder?

of course not, he was clearly playing to his bigot fanbase, always goes down well with the daily mail and other fascists, with that following he can do no wrong

he's a proven liar, and was a serial incompetent at the foreign office, he just makes society nastier

On the subject of nuns clothing, a nun's habit has for years been acceptable as an item of fancy dress. You can even get 'sexy' habits. Why are fancy dress burqas deemed racist and religiously offensive.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/amaz ... 29461.html

Btw I am not trying to paint Catholics/Christians as victims here. God fearing religions are as deserving as as much satire as Allah fearing ones.

But why does society seem to have double standards?
Imams and whores party anyone?

Context.

Picking on a minority and in particular an oppressed and vulnerable minority is bullying.

Picking on the established churches isn't.

World's second largest religion. Be careful - denigrating Islam as not being established may mark you as being Islamophobic by some on here.

Are you truly saying that you can only ridicule something, no matter how ridiculous it is, that is only practised by the majority? Any practice of belief held to be the preserve of the minority is off limits?

Your last sentence seems to give the impression that some religions are beyond criticism, whilst others are fair game. I hope I have misunderstood.

Of course you have. Not sure why you're so desperate to twist what people are writing to prove some imagined oversensitivity or hypocrisy. Nobody has said criticism Islam is off limits. In any case Johnson's comments are just him ridiculing the women concerned, rather than criticising the religious beliefs behind them.

Not trying to twist anything.

Picking on the established churches

Certainly gives the impression that not all religions are equal. Perhaps there is a list of churches/religions that it is socially acceptable to criticise?


I actually wrote

give the impression that some religions are beyond criticism

.

Did not refer to any particular religion. In fact I said religions, in the plural. It is you who seem to have assumed I was singling out Islam.

PS. This tangential discussion is as a result of my replying to someone else's whataboutery when they introduced the customs/clothing of other religions into the thread.

The difference is not the religion itself but the position it holds in a society. Roman Catholicism held a huge amount of power in Ireland, but was itself discriminated against in this country (historically, by law). It's not inconsistent to mock the significant power that Islam has in, say, Iran, but be uncomfortable with mocking the tiny minority of Muslim women who wear the burqa in this country. If you want to attack the power that religion (in this case Islam) has over its believers then taking the p*ss out of the clothing of a tiny subset of believers in a country where they are already marginalised is off target.

Ben6899

Stevo 666 wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Shortfall wrote:

Re Millenials. According to Wikipedia:

"There are no precise dates for when this cohort starts or ends; demographers and researchers typically use the early 1980s as starting birth years and the mid-1990s to early 2000s as ending birth years."

Using that definition I would imagine there's quite a few posting in cake shop.

Does that make you a millennial Ben?

1980 here. So arguably just!

That's about the only correlation though.

Well you do seem to be a liberal as well

I just want a world that's as fair as possible, for all. Economics wise, a capitalist conservative society is right up my street. But it's not all about me. ;-)

DeVlaeminck

rjsterry wrote:

PS. This tangential discussion is as a result of my replying to someone else's whataboutery when they introduced the customs/clothing of other religions into the thread.

The difference is not the religion itself but the position it holds in a society. Roman Catholicism held a huge amount of power in Ireland, but was itself discriminated against in this country (historically, by law). It's not inconsistent to mock the significant power that Islam has in, say, Iran, but be uncomfortable with mocking the tiny minority of Muslim women who wear the burqa in this country. If you want to attack the power that religion (in this case Islam) has over its believers then taking the p*ss out of the clothing of a tiny subset of believers in a country where they are already marginalised is off target.[/quote]

Yes but let's be honest, if Boris had made a reasoned attack on these garments as oppressive, regressive and incompatible with western values he would still have copped a huge amount of flak, probably more. The fact he did it in a jokey way is to be regretted because he is an MP not a comedian but it isn't the meat and potatoes of what is going on here.

coopster_the_1st

DeVlaeminck wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

PS. This tangential discussion is as a result of my replying to someone else's whataboutery when they introduced the customs/clothing of other religions into the thread.
The difference is not the religion itself but the position it holds in a society. Roman Catholicism held a huge amount of power in Ireland, but was itself discriminated against in this country (historically, by law). It's not inconsistent to mock the significant power that Islam has in, say, Iran, but be uncomfortable with mocking the tiny minority of Muslim women who wear the burqa in this country. If you want to attack the power that religion (in this case Islam) has over its believers then taking the p*ss out of the clothing of a tiny subset of believers in a country where they are already marginalised is off target.

Yes but let's be honest, if Boris had made a reasoned attack on these garments as oppressive, regressive and incompatible with western values he would still have copped a huge amount of flak, probably more. The fact he did it in a jokey way is to be regretted because he is an MP not a comedian but it isn't the meat and potatoes of what is going on here.

It's purely political and nothing else.

It's easy to see this because of the deafening silence from the hypocrites on Corbyn being a terrorist sympathiser

rjsterry

DeVlaeminck wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Bally wrote:

PS. This tangential discussion is as a result of my replying to someone else's whataboutery when they introduced the customs/clothing of other religions into the thread.

The difference is not the religion itself but the position it holds in a society. Roman Catholicism held a huge amount of power in Ireland, but was itself discriminated against in this country (historically, by law). It's not inconsistent to mock the significant power that Islam has in, say, Iran, but be uncomfortable with mocking the tiny minority of Muslim women who wear the burqa in this country. If you want to attack the power that religion (in this case Islam) has over its believers then taking the p*ss out of the clothing of a tiny subset of believers in a country where they are already marginalised is off target.

Yes but let's be honest, if Boris had made a reasoned attack on these garments as oppressive, regressive and incompatible with western values he would still have copped a huge amount of flak, probably more. The fact he did it in a jokey way is to be regretted because he is an MP not a comedian but it isn't the meat and potatoes of what is going on here.

Given his party is already taking flak for islamophobia towards its own members, maybe now is not the best time to bring this up. As I've mentioned about 3 or 4 times now, the first prominent calls for an apology came from his party chairman and party leader. And quite reasonably so. With everything else going on, they don't need it. If nothing else this shows that Johnson thinks he is more important than his party.