Boris Johnson's Burkha Comments

BelgianBeerGeek

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Are we talking about the story that has been reported on several times over the past few years whenever there are more arrests/charges?

I was well short of places on my previous post where this has occurred. Since 2011 convictions for have been made in the following places

Rochdale
Rotherham
Oxford
Telford
Leeds
Birmingham
Norwich
Burnley
High Wycombe
Leicester
Dewsbury
Middlesborough
Peterborough
Bristol
Halifax
Newcastle

Only 2 men in all those above convictions were not of British South Asian Muslim heritage.

And we'll be adding Hudderfield to that list soon but it will still be 2 men out of the whole list that do not meet a certain origin.[/quote
Sorry you will have to explain the point of this again.

pblakeney

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Are we talking about the story that has been reported on several times over the past few years whenever there are more arrests/charges?

I was well short of places on my previous post where this has occurred. Since 2011 convictions for have been made in the following places

Rochdale
Rotherham
Oxford
Telford
Leeds
Birmingham
Norwich
Burnley
High Wycombe
Leicester
Dewsbury
Middlesborough
Peterborough
Bristol
Halifax
Newcastle

Only 2 men in all those above convictions were not of British South Asian Muslim heritage.

And we'll be adding Hudderfield to that list soon but it will still be 2 men out of the whole list that do not meet a certain origin.[/quote
Sorry you will have to explain the point of this again.

“us” and “them”.
Probably.

coopster_the_1st

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Are we talking about the story that has been reported on several times over the past few years whenever there are more arrests/charges?

I was well short of places on my previous post where this has occurred. Since 2011 convictions for have been made in the following places

Rochdale
Rotherham
Oxford
Telford
Leeds
Birmingham
Norwich
Burnley
High Wycombe
Leicester
Dewsbury
Middlesborough
Peterborough
Bristol
Halifax
Newcastle

Only 2 men in all those above convictions were not of British South Asian Muslim heritage.

And we'll be adding Hudderfield to that list soon but it will still be 2 men out of the whole list that do not meet a certain origin.

Sorry you will have to explain the point of this again.[/quote]

Read this link that was posted above by DeV - https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/ ... ing-gangs/

rjsterry

This to me was the key quote from that article.

"If we are not asking the question, I can guarantee you somebody else will be asking the question.

"Then you sit back and wonder 'why is the far right rising?'

"I'll tell you. When you silence those liberal, secular, humanist and reasonable voices who are attempting to have a rational conversation around facts, when call those voices anti-Muslim, Islamophobic, bigoted or racist, and moderate voices are intimidated from speaking up, what happens as a result is the fringes, the extremists, then those extremist voices rise to the forefront.

And here we are, a bunch of broadly liberal, secular and reasonable people having a rational conversation about it, so what's the problem?

Ben6899

Here we all are, discussing at length something that's being hidden from us.

Absolutely fuck1ng bonkers.

nickice

TailWindHome wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

sungod wrote:

would the great boris have been equally lauded had he said jewish woman in sheitels look like cousin itt? or that nuns look like something out of blackadder?

of course not, he was clearly playing to his bigot fanbase, always goes down well with the daily mail and other fascists, with that following he can do no wrong

he's a proven liar, and was a serial incompetent at the foreign office, he just makes society nastier

On the subject of nuns clothing, a nun's habit has for years been acceptable as an item of fancy dress. You can even get 'sexy' habits. Why are fancy dress burqas deemed racist and religiously offensive.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/amaz ... 29461.html

Btw I am not trying to paint Catholics/Christians as victims here. God fearing religions are as deserving as as much satire as Allah fearing ones.

But why does society seem to have double standards?
Imams and whores party anyone?

Context.

Picking on a minority and in particular an oppressed and vulnerable minority is bullying.

Picking on the established churches isn't.

Muslim women who wear a full facial covering are making themselves a minority. If they are oppressed then it must be other Muslims oppressing them which means there is a good case for banning the niqab and burka. I fail to see how they are vulnerable as Islam also welds a lot of power. Do you think newspapers didn't show the Charlie Hebdo cartoons out of respect or out of fear?

You know who else is a minority? Scientologists. Isn't it interesting that they're fair game.

nickice

rjsterry wrote:

This to me was the key quote from that article.

"If we are not asking the question, I can guarantee you somebody else will be asking the question.

"Then you sit back and wonder 'why is the far right rising?'

"I'll tell you. When you silence those liberal, secular, humanist and reasonable voices who are attempting to have a rational conversation around facts, when call those voices anti-Muslim, Islamophobic, bigoted or racist, and moderate voices are intimidated from speaking up, what happens as a result is the fringes, the extremists, then those extremist voices rise to the forefront.

And here we are, a bunch of broadly liberal, secular and reasonable people having a rational conversation about it, so what's the problem?

Not so much you (though we tend to always disagree) but Rick Chasey is well know for throwing around accusations of bigotry and racism at the first opportunity.

nickice

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Are we talking about the story that has been reported on several times over the past few years whenever there are more arrests/charges?

I was well short of places on my previous post where this has occurred. Since 2011 convictions for have been made in the following places

Rochdale
Rotherham
Oxford
Telford
Leeds
Birmingham
Norwich
Burnley
High Wycombe
Leicester
Dewsbury
Middlesborough
Peterborough
Bristol
Halifax
Newcastle

Only 2 men in all those above convictions were not of British South Asian Muslim heritage.

And we'll be adding Hudderfield to that list soon but it will still be 2 men out of the whole list that do not meet a certain origin.[/quote
Sorry you will have to explain the point of this again.

I've never been sure about how much these cases have to do with Islam. It also seems to have a cultural element as it tend to only ever be Pakistani men (or men of Pakistani origin). Maybe because the majority of British Muslims tend to be of that ethnicity but I don't know.

mr_goo

nickice wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

This to me was the key quote from that article.

"If we are not asking the question, I can guarantee you somebody else will be asking the question.

"Then you sit back and wonder 'why is the far right rising?'

"I'll tell you. When you silence those liberal, secular, humanist and reasonable voices who are attempting to have a rational conversation around facts, when call those voices anti-Muslim, Islamophobic, bigoted or racist, and moderate voices are intimidated from speaking up, what happens as a result is the fringes, the extremists, then those extremist voices rise to the forefront.

And here we are, a bunch of broadly liberal, secular and reasonable people having a rational conversation about it, so what's the problem?

Not so much you (though we tend to always disagree) but Rick Chasey is well know for throwing around accusations of bigotry and racism at the first opportunity.

I have observed this. No further comment needed.

rjsterry

nickice wrote:

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Are we talking about the story that has been reported on several times over the past few years whenever there are more arrests/charges?

I was well short of places on my previous post where this has occurred. Since 2011 convictions for have been made in the following places

Rochdale
Rotherham
Oxford
Telford
Leeds
Birmingham
Norwich
Burnley
High Wycombe
Leicester
Dewsbury
Middlesborough
Peterborough
Bristol
Halifax
Newcastle

Only 2 men in all those above convictions were not of British South Asian Muslim heritage.

And we'll be adding Hudderfield to that list soon but it will still be 2 men out of the whole list that do not meet a certain origin.[/quote
Sorry you will have to explain the point of this again.

I've never been sure about how much these cases have to do with Islam. It also seems to have a cultural element as it tend to only ever be Pakistani men (or men of Pakistani origin). Maybe because the majority of British Muslims tend to be of that ethnicity but I don't know.

Other way around, I think. Pakistan is 96% Muslim so it would be unusual for British-Pakistani men to be anything else. Would agree that Islam is unlikely to have much to do with it.

I will admit to being a bit contrary on occasion.

surrey_commuter

nickice wrote:

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Are we talking about the story that has been reported on several times over the past few years whenever there are more arrests/charges?

I was well short of places on my previous post where this has occurred. Since 2011 convictions for have been made in the following places

Rochdale
Rotherham
Oxford
Telford
Leeds
Birmingham
Norwich
Burnley
High Wycombe
Leicester
Dewsbury
Middlesborough
Peterborough
Bristol
Halifax
Newcastle

Only 2 men in all those above convictions were not of British South Asian Muslim heritage.

And we'll be adding Hudderfield to that list soon but it will still be 2 men out of the whole list that do not meet a certain origin.[/quote
Sorry you will have to explain the point of this again.

I've never been sure about how much these cases have to do with Islam. It also seems to have a cultural element as it tend to only ever be Pakistani men (or men of Pakistani origin). Maybe because the majority of British Muslims tend to be of that ethnicity but I don't know.

That for me is the issue - the authorities are too scared to figure out the cause and until they do that they can not find a solution. The other side of the dirty coin is if you want a victim to abuse then find a chavvy white kid as people either won’t believe them or not care.

surrey_commuter

nickice wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

sungod wrote:

would the great boris have been equally lauded had he said jewish woman in sheitels look like cousin itt? or that nuns look like something out of blackadder?

of course not, he was clearly playing to his bigot fanbase, always goes down well with the daily mail and other fascists, with that following he can do no wrong

he's a proven liar, and was a serial incompetent at the foreign office, he just makes society nastier

On the subject of nuns clothing, a nun's habit has for years been acceptable as an item of fancy dress. You can even get 'sexy' habits. Why are fancy dress burqas deemed racist and religiously offensive.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/amaz ... 29461.html

Btw I am not trying to paint Catholics/Christians as victims here. God fearing religions are as deserving as as much satire as Allah fearing ones.

But why does society seem to have double standards?
Imams and whores party anyone?

Context.

Picking on a minority and in particular an oppressed and vulnerable minority is bullying.

Picking on the established churches isn't.

Muslim women who wear a full facial covering are making themselves a minority. If they are oppressed then it must be other Muslims oppressing them which means there is a good case for banning the niqab and burka. I fail to see how they are vulnerable as Islam also welds a lot of power. Do you think newspapers didn't show the Charlie Hebdo cartoons out of respect or out of fear?

You know who else is a minority? Scientologists. Isn't it interesting that they're fair game.

So self selecting minorities are fair game?

How does the LGBT community fit into this theory?

rjsterry

Surrey Commuter wrote:

nickice wrote:

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

Coopster the 1st wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Are we talking about the story that has been reported on several times over the past few years whenever there are more arrests/charges?

I was well short of places on my previous post where this has occurred. Since 2011 convictions for have been made in the following places

Rochdale
Rotherham
Oxford
Telford
Leeds
Birmingham
Norwich
Burnley
High Wycombe
Leicester
Dewsbury
Middlesborough
Peterborough
Bristol
Halifax
Newcastle

Only 2 men in all those above convictions were not of British South Asian Muslim heritage.

And we'll be adding Hudderfield to that list soon but it will still be 2 men out of the whole list that do not meet a certain origin.[/quote
Sorry you will have to explain the point of this again.

I've never been sure about how much these cases have to do with Islam. It also seems to have a cultural element as it tend to only ever be Pakistani men (or men of Pakistani origin). Maybe because the majority of British Muslims tend to be of that ethnicity but I don't know.

That for me is the issue - the authorities are too scared to figure out the cause and until they do that they can not find a solution. The other side of the dirty coin is if you want a victim to abuse then find a chavvy white kid as people either won’t believe them or not care.

I don't see this as that different from instances relating to children's homes or boarding schools. It's just picking an easy target where the likelihood of detection is low.

nickice

Surrey Commuter wrote:

nickice wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

sungod wrote:

would the great boris have been equally lauded had he said jewish woman in sheitels look like cousin itt? or that nuns look like something out of blackadder?

of course not, he was clearly playing to his bigot fanbase, always goes down well with the daily mail and other fascists, with that following he can do no wrong

he's a proven liar, and was a serial incompetent at the foreign office, he just makes society nastier

On the subject of nuns clothing, a nun's habit has for years been acceptable as an item of fancy dress. You can even get 'sexy' habits. Why are fancy dress burqas deemed racist and religiously offensive.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/amaz ... 29461.html

Btw I am not trying to paint Catholics/Christians as victims here. God fearing religions are as deserving as as much satire as Allah fearing ones.

But why does society seem to have double standards?
Imams and whores party anyone?

Context.

Picking on a minority and in particular an oppressed and vulnerable minority is bullying.

Picking on the established churches isn't.

Muslim women who wear a full facial covering are making themselves a minority. If they are oppressed then it must be other Muslims oppressing them which means there is a good case for banning the niqab and burka. I fail to see how they are vulnerable as Islam also welds a lot of power. Do you think newspapers didn't show the Charlie Hebdo cartoons out of respect or out of fear?

You know who else is a minority? Scientologists. Isn't it interesting that they're fair game.

So self selecting minorities are fair game?

How does the LGBT community fit into this theory?

Total strawman. The point wasn't that we should mock minorities but that it's clear that some religious minorities are more protected than others. And being gay isn't a choice.

surrey_commuter

nickice wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

nickice wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

sungod wrote:

would the great boris have been equally lauded had he said jewish woman in sheitels look like cousin itt? or that nuns look like something out of blackadder?

of course not, he was clearly playing to his bigot fanbase, always goes down well with the daily mail and other fascists, with that following he can do no wrong

he's a proven liar, and was a serial incompetent at the foreign office, he just makes society nastier

On the subject of nuns clothing, a nun's habit has for years been acceptable as an item of fancy dress. You can even get 'sexy' habits. Why are fancy dress burqas deemed racist and religiously offensive.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/amaz ... 29461.html

Btw I am not trying to paint Catholics/Christians as victims here. God fearing religions are as deserving as as much satire as Allah fearing ones.

But why does society seem to have double standards?
Imams and whores party anyone?

Context.

Picking on a minority and in particular an oppressed and vulnerable minority is bullying.

Picking on the established churches isn't.

Muslim women who wear a full facial covering are making themselves a minority. If they are oppressed then it must be other Muslims oppressing them which means there is a good case for banning the niqab and burka. I fail to see how they are vulnerable as Islam also welds a lot of power. Do you think newspapers didn't show the Charlie Hebdo cartoons out of respect or out of fear?

You know who else is a minority? Scientologists. Isn't it interesting that they're fair game.

So self selecting minorities are fair game?

How does the LGBT community fit into this theory?

Total strawman. The point wasn't that we should mock minorities but that it's clear that some religious minorities are more protected than others. And being gay isn't a choice.

So all minorities should be as protected as Muslims?

Can’t think of any politicians mocking Scientologist. Even Corbyn and his cronies don’t mock Orthodox Jews for their choice of attire.

nickice

As a politician, he shouldn't be mocking anyone to be honest unless it's another politician but you can bet your life that if he had mocked Scientologists there wouldn't have been as big an uproar. And, yes, nobody mocks orthodox Jews, though there probably shouldn't be any taboo about doing that as it's not mocking an ethnicity.

I just don't like the fact that religious minorities are now treated the same way as racial minorities. And I certainly don't like people drawing an equivalence between Islamophobia and Antisemitism. That's not accusing you of it, but I can see it creeping in. That's not to say, I'd personally start mocking someone's religion to their face as I'd consider that rude.

BelgianBeerGeek

nickice wrote:

As a politician, he shouldn't be mocking anyone to be honest unless it's another politician but you can bet your life that if he had mocked Scientologists there wouldn't have been as big an uproar. And, yes, nobody mocks orthodox Jews, though there probably shouldn't be any taboo about doing that as it's not mocking an ethnicity.

I just don't like the fact that religious minorities are now treated the same way as racial minorities. And I certainly don't like people drawing an equivalence between Islamophobia and Antisemitism. That's not accusing you of it, but I can see it creeping in. That's not to say, I'd personally start mocking someone's religion to their face as I'd consider that rude.

Google Judaism and ethnicity: they can be seen as the same.

nickice

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

nickice wrote:

As a politician, he shouldn't be mocking anyone to be honest unless it's another politician but you can bet your life that if he had mocked Scientologists there wouldn't have been as big an uproar. And, yes, nobody mocks orthodox Jews, though there probably shouldn't be any taboo about doing that as it's not mocking an ethnicity.

I just don't like the fact that religious minorities are now treated the same way as racial minorities. And I certainly don't like people drawing an equivalence between Islamophobia and Antisemitism. That's not accusing you of it, but I can see it creeping in. That's not to say, I'd personally start mocking someone's religion to their face as I'd consider that rude.

Google Judaism and ethnicity: they can be seen as the same.

I disagree. Even a secular Jew is still considered to be a Jew by themselves and others.

Ben6899

You disagree?

nickice

Ben6899 wrote:

You disagree?

Yes. Being a Jew is multifaceted.

cooldad

nickice wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

You disagree?

Yes. Being a Jew is multifaceted.

And being a Muslim (or anything else) is not?

nickice

cooldad wrote:

nickice wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

You disagree?

Yes. Being a Jew is multifaceted.

And being a Muslim (or anything else) is not?

It's not an ethnicity. That's the key. Judaism isn't a proselytising religion and has very few converts.

Ben6899

nickice wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

You disagree?

Yes. Being a Jew is multifaceted.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your point, you appear to be contradicting yourself.

nickice

Ben6899 wrote:

nickice wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

You disagree?

Yes. Being a Jew is multifaceted.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your point, you appear to be contradicting yourself.

How's that? There is a religious, ethnic and, to a lesser extent, cultural element to being Jewish. You will find very few religious Jews who aren't also ethnically Jewish but you will find a lot of ethnic Jews who aren't religious. They're still Jews.

Ben6899

nickice wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

nickice wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

You disagree?

Yes. Being a Jew is multifaceted.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your point, you appear to be contradicting yourself.

How's that? There is a religious, ethnic and, to a lesser extent, cultural element to being Jewish. You will find very few religious Jews who aren't also ethnically Jewish but you will find a lot of ethnic Jews who aren't religious. They're still Jews.

nickice wrote:

And, yes, nobody mocks orthodox Jews, though there probably shouldn't be any taboo about doing that as it's not mocking an ethnicity.

nickice

Ben6899 wrote:

nickice wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

nickice wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

You disagree?

Yes. Being a Jew is multifaceted.

Unless I'm misunderstanding your point, you appear to be contradicting yourself.

How's that? There is a religious, ethnic and, to a lesser extent, cultural element to being Jewish. You will find very few religious Jews who aren't also ethnically Jewish but you will find a lot of ethnic Jews who aren't religious. They're still Jews.

nickice wrote:

And, yes, nobody mocks orthodox Jews, though there probably shouldn't be any taboo about doing that as it's not mocking an ethnicity.

Like I said, you'll struggle to find a religious Jew who isn't also an ethnic Jew. The religious part is a choice.

Ben6899

In one post you recognise that being Jewish is about one's ethnicity and culture just as much as (more?) the religious element.

But you also say mocking orthodox Jewish traditions shouldn't be taboo because you wouldn't be mocking someone's ethnicity.

nickice

Ben6899 wrote:

In one post you recognise that being Jewish is about one's ethnicity and culture just as much as (more?) the religious element.

But you also say mocking orthodox Jewish traditions shouldn't be taboo because you wouldn't be mocking someone's ethnicity.

You don't have the religious element without the ethnicity. That's the one thing that's common to almost all Jews. Judaism is just a set of beliefs. Most Jews are secular and very few are orthodox.

Ben6899

nickice wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

In one post you recognise that being Jewish is about one's ethnicity and culture just as much as (more?) the religious element.

But you also say mocking orthodox Jewish traditions shouldn't be taboo because you wouldn't be mocking someone's ethnicity.

You don't have the religious element without the ethnicity. That's the one thing that's common to almost all Jews. Judaism is just a set of beliefs. Most Jews are secular and very few are orthodox.

So if you mock Judaism, you're probably mocking someone who is ethnically Jewish.

Am I going mad here? Someone neutral to this sub-discussion (not FishFish or Coopster) please chip in either way.

nickice

Ben6899 wrote:

nickice wrote:

Ben6899 wrote:

In one post you recognise that being Jewish is about one's ethnicity and culture just as much as (more?) the religious element.

But you also say mocking orthodox Jewish traditions shouldn't be taboo because you wouldn't be mocking someone's ethnicity.

You don't have the religious element without the ethnicity. That's the one thing that's common to almost all Jews. Judaism is just a set of beliefs. Most Jews are secular and very few are orthodox.

So if you mock Judaism, you're probably mocking someone who is ethnically Jewish.

Am I going mad here? Someone neutral to this sub-discussion (not FishFish or Coopster) please chip in either way.

You'd mocking a religion, not a person and even if it were a person you wouldn't be mocking your ethnicity rather than their beliefs. If you mock Judaism, religious Jews might be offended but secular ones wouldn't be.