TDF 2017: Stage 4- Mondorf-les-Bains - Vittel 207.5kms *Spoilers*

graeme_s-2

I'll accept it's a racing incident, but at the very least it's extremely clumsy and unobservant of Sagan

RichN95.

Sagan relegated and fined 30 seconds

meanredspider

type:epyt wrote:

Watching this little video loop and from first sight on an HD tv, it looks like Cav rides into Sagan's shoulder, Sagan then puts his elbow out (hopefully for protection) but there was no gap there anyway ...

Edwards and 'The Coach' tabloid journalism'ing it as much as possible ...

As a disinterested observer, that clip doesn't do justice to the lead-up. I've just been watching a longer clip and it's interesting how the edit can distort what happened.

kingstongraham

RichN95 wrote:

Sagan relegated and fined 30 seconds

Fair. Would have been fair to kick him out as well, I think.

ExCyclist

There's one point in that video/re-run where you can see what looks like Cav knowing what is coming - like he is about to shout something at Sagan before Sagan elbows him.

Was it deliberate? Certainly looks deliberate. Would Cav have not crashed I doubt it as he was being forced in the barriers anyway. The elbow is what gives it that 'nasty' element as tbf, that does look deliberate.

As mentioned elsewhere, it'll probably go down as a race incident but Sagan will now be marked. Which is a shame as I like both Cav and Sagan.

graeme_s-2

RichN95 wrote:

Sagan relegated and fined 30 seconds

Never understood the point of time penalties for non-GC riders. Sprinters should be penalised green jersey points (although I guess the relegation does that anyway).

gsk82

Graeme_S wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Sagan relegated and fined 30 seconds

Never understood the point of time penalties for non-GC riders. Sprinters should be penalised green jersey points (although I guess the relegation does that anyway).

Isn't sagan within bonus seconds of yellow? In this case it may actually mean something

Pross

type:epyt wrote:

kleinstroker wrote:

Watching this little video loop and from first sight on an HD tv, it looks like Cav rides into Sagan's shoulder, Sagan then puts his elbow out (hopefully for protection) but there was no gap there anyway ...

Edwards and 'The Coach' tabloid journalism'ing it as much as possible ...

It looks worse on the overhead, the gap Demare went through and Cav was trying to follow was a lot bigger than that loop suggests. The whole group had moved from the left side of the road to the right after Demare and Cav had started their move, there was all sorts of dodgy bike handling going on that Sagan no doubt reacted to but the final contact looked more like him trying to get Demare's wheel and either not realising Cav already had it or trying to force him off it.

I really dislike Bouhanni but Demare should have been relegated for cutting him up like he did there.

TheBigBean

Graeme_S wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Sagan relegated and fined 30 seconds

Never understood the point of time penalties for non-GC riders. Sprinters should be penalised green jersey points (although I guess the relegation does that anyway).

He was 7s off yellow.

bigmat

Rick Chasey wrote:

Called a journo out for saying "everyone thinks Sagan plays fair" - i show him an example of he total opposite and the response is "shrugs, I'm still right".

Think I just responded to same guy. I'm concerned Sagan is getting a bit too big for his boots in the peloton. Hopefully this incident will give him a sense check, although if he isn't penalised at all I doubt it. I've seen riders relegated to last on stage for far, far less. If nothing else it would make the green jersey contest a bit more interesting!

EDIT - sounds like the commissaires have done the necessary.

kingstongraham

gsk82 wrote:

Graeme_S wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Sagan relegated and fined 30 seconds

Never understood the point of time penalties for non-GC riders. Sprinters should be penalised green jersey points (although I guess the relegation does that anyway).

Isn't sagan within bonus seconds of yellow? In this case it may actually mean something

He is quite unlikely to win tomorrow. So it means nothing.

TheBigBean

RichN95 wrote:

Sagan relegated and fined 30 seconds

Your bet that he won't win green is now in the money. Very much so.

norvernrob

gsk82 wrote:

Graeme_S wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Sagan relegated and fined 30 seconds

Never understood the point of time penalties for non-GC riders. Sprinters should be penalised green jersey points (although I guess the relegation does that anyway).

Isn't sagan within bonus seconds of yellow? In this case it may actually mean something

Not with a summit finish coming up tomorrow!

kingstongraham

Sagan showing as only having 15 points in the green jersey. So I guess he's been fined points as well.

RichN95.

KingstonGraham wrote:

gsk82 wrote:

Graeme_S wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Sagan relegated and fined 30 seconds

Never understood the point of time penalties for non-GC riders. Sprinters should be penalised green jersey points (although I guess the relegation does that anyway).

Isn't sagan within bonus seconds of yellow? In this case it may actually mean something

He is quite unlikely to win tomorrow. So it means nothing.

But in many stage races it does mean something. The penalties are the same for all races.

yourpaceormine

Sagan's worlds jersey saved him? Probably

Can't see Cav starting tomorrow, which would be a real shame as he was looking much more competitive than I was expecting.

TheBigBean

Sagan 15th on the letour website.

kingstongraham

Looks like a 50 point deduction?

He had 50 at the end of yesterday, gained 15 from the intermediate sprint , and he now only has 15.

That green is going to take some winning now.

kiwimatt

Sagan is hardly boxed in. Could have easily conceded to the left. Bad.

RichN95.

TheBigBean wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Sagan relegated and fined 30 seconds

Your bet that he won't win green is now in the money. Very much so.

I saw Demare at 6/1. I'll do it tonight I thought....

salsiccia1

kiwimatt wrote:

Sagan is hardly boxed in. Could have easily conceded to the left. Bad.

But at that point he's already moving to the right (for whatever reason - possibly due to Greipel sliding into him) so momentum is going to keep him going that way.

Richmond Racer 2

Roger Hammond @rog10: Causes a big crash at 1.5 to go. elbows elbows fellow competitor in the head 300 meters...can only result in one decision. #Goodbye


PARKLIFE

RichN95.

Media reaction to Tour scandals so far

Trek EPO: Meh. Absolutely nothing to with Bertie though, so no point asking him about it.

'New' skinsuits: Evil cheating Sky. New questions have been raised. Further crisis.

Sagan elbow: It wasn't his fault. It was Greipel's and Demare's. He's perfect..... Peter just touched me. Ohmygod, ohmygod, ohmygod. I'm never washing this hand again

FoldingJoe

Cav was lucky there - the barriers seemed to hold up pretty well.

If they'd have collapsed then it could have been a lot worse for him.

dolan_driver

Pross wrote:

Cav showed how to select the perfect wheel but that gap was always going to be risky and someone shut it without looking. Looked relatively innocuous by bunch sprint crash standards but it's rare for Cav to stay down.

Sagan chucking an elbow in there! Probably instinctive.

I have to agree. I'm not sure there was anything malicious in Sagan's movement to the right and elbow. It looked like he raised his elbow because he sensed Cav coming into him and seeing the gap left for Cav, knew he was likely to crash. The elbow was raised more in protection of himself than in any deliberate attempt to stuff Cav into the barriers. Sagan and everyone else knows the days of true rough-house sprinting are over. Any infraction and you are relegated.

Hopefully Cavendish is OK to continue, recovers well and gets a stage win.

DD.

kingstongraham

KingstonGraham wrote:

Looks like a 50 point deduction?

He had 50 at the end of yesterday, gained 15 from the intermediate sprint , and he now only has 15.

That green is going to take some winning now.

80 point deduction including the 30 he would have got today. Now does have only 15 points.

Pross

From that overhead a) how did Kristoff not win? b) maybe Bouhanni wasn't impeded by Demare quite as much as the head on suggested. It also looks like everyone was instinctively avoiding the hatch road markings and making the road much narrower than it actually was.

Richmond Racer 2

RichN95 wrote:

Media reaction to Tour scandals so far

Trek EPO: Meh. Absolutely nothing to with Bertie though, so no point asking him about it.

'New' skinsuits: Evil cheating Sky. New questions have been raised. Further crisis.

Sagan elbow: It wasn't his fault. It was Greipel's and Demare's. He's perfect..... Peter just touched me. Ohmygod, ohmygod, ohmygod. I'm never washing this hand again

In a nutshell, yeah

blazing_saddles

Must have been Bouhanni's fault, surely?

Looked to me what started the skittle effect was Greipel swerved quite suddenly, clipped Bouhanni's rear wheel and everybody got shunted towards the barriers.
The commies cloud the issue by sort of half penalising the elbow.
So, I assume they were undecided over intent.

To me it was just an extreme example of a racing incident.

kleinstroker

Sagan is very lucky not to be dq'd having watched it from both angles. He had plenty of room in front and to his right as they went under the tree, so no need to veer so sharply right.