TDF 2017: Stage 4- Mondorf-les-Bains - Vittel 207.5kms *Spoilers*

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Comments

  • Cannock Chase
    Cannock Chase Posts: 558
    As mentioned by Chris Boardman, for consistency a penalty should also have been given to Demare for impeding Bouhanni.

    But of course that was never going to happen.

    That would have robbed the TDF of a French victory.
    I'm not getting old... I'm just using lower gears......
    Sirius - Steel Reynolds 631
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  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    NOS interview one of the jury members.

    Basically says Tour can't tolerate deliberately shoulder barging people into barriers, & they feel movement and the elbow particularly shows it's deliberate.

    Currently watching.
    Avond is currently getting owned by Vive le velo, guest wise.
    Getting hard to spot a bloke.
    Leontien van Moorsel and Thijs Zonneveld versus Robbie McEwen and Kris Boeckmans, tonight.
    No contest.

    What was Robbie saying??
    _
  • meanredspider
    meanredspider Posts: 12,337
    At least they have the balls to do something. Better than FIA and Vettel/Ferrari.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    Pross wrote:
    Wonder if Cav injured the shoulder in the crash or when Degenkolb? rode into him when he was on the ground? He appeared to slide down the barriers so as sprint crashes go it should have been a relatively soft landing but then he got hit hard on the ground.
    I thought Degenkolb rode mainly into his leg? I seem to recall a bike riding up and over Cav's calve in a pretty painful looking manner (or was that Swift, and Degenkolb hit him in the torso?)
  • shipley
    shipley Posts: 549
    Slim Boy Fat wrote:
    Looks like Cav is out as well.

    https://twitter.com/tomcary_tel/status/ ... 3521728512

    Took a risk, lost out.

    Don't think he'd have done the full tour anyway given his glandular fever.

    Ho hum, poorer tour without both of them

    Racing incident imo- Sagan maybe cavalier in his ways but is not nasty as some seem to be suggesting.

    Roll on Vuelta
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,332
    Cannock Chase wrote:
    As mentioned by Chris Boardman, for consistency a penalty should also have been given to Demare for impeding Bouhanni.

    But of course that was never going to happen.

    That would have robbed the TDF of a French victory.

    Not sure I agree with Boardman on this - Demare didn't force anyone into a barrier. Whilst i totally agree that Demare could have been throwing puppies into everyone's spokes and tieing virgins to railway tracks and still not be disqualified today, I can sort of see where the jury had wriggle room to not throw even a tiny book at him.

    Wouldn't be surprised if an unofficial word was had about future direction though.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • andyrac
    andyrac Posts: 1,197
    meanredspider wrote:
    At least they have the balls to do something. Better than FIA and Vettel/Ferrari.

    Well, quite - but now they have to be consistent, and punish anything remotely similar.....but will they?

    It's almost the equivalent in horse racing of careless riding - with a probable 5-10 day ban.
    All Road/ Gravel: tbcWinter: tbcMTB: tbcRoad: tbc"Look at the time...." "he's fallen like an old lady on a cruise ship..."
  • FocusZing
    FocusZing Posts: 4,373
    edited July 2017
    DD7AfZlVoAAt262.jpg

    Sagans arm is on Cavs bars, then when Cav falls to his right his shifters push up Sagans arm. Their front wheels are almost level. Sagan doesn't look to his right, heads straight down.
  • lettingthedaysgoby
    lettingthedaysgoby Posts: 1,732
    It was a sprint finish in a bike race. A racing incident. The disqualification is ridiculous.
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,695
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Leontien van Moorsel

    Did I ever tell you about the time I met one of Leontien's ex domestiques in one of Den Haag's less posh nightclubs at 5am..?

    It was because I had a pedaleur de charme t-shirt on actually...
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    FocusZing wrote:
    DD7AfZlVoAAt262.jpg

    Cavs bars push Sagans arm up. Their front wheels are almost level. Sagan doesn't look to his right, heads straight down.
    Personally I prefer Andy Warhol's version

    e6zegSK.png
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • FocusZing
    FocusZing Posts: 4,373
    Ha, it does though I tell thee!
  • ben@31
    ben@31 Posts: 2,327
    meanredspider wrote:
    At least they have the balls to do something. Better than FIA and Vettel/Ferrari.

    But is doing something anything as a knee jerk reaction and then getting it wrong, better than not doing anything at all ?
    "The Prince of Wales is now the King of France" - Calton Kirby
  • DeVlaeminck
    DeVlaeminck Posts: 9,104
    FocusZing wrote:
    DD7AfZlVoAAt262.jpg

    Cavs bars push Sagans arm up. Their front wheels are almost level. Sagan doesn't look to his right, heads straight down.


    Need to go further back than that. The elbow isn't the issue so much as Sagan closing the door, by the first frame there Cav is pretty much already going down.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • mfin
    mfin Posts: 6,729
    Please make it stop.
  • awavey
    awavey Posts: 2,368
    Pross wrote:
    Wonder if Cav injured the shoulder in the crash or when Degenkolb? rode into him when he was on the ground? He appeared to slide down the barriers so as sprint crashes go it should have been a relatively soft landing but then he got hit hard on the ground.

    he shoulder checked a Carrefour stick out advert on the barriers at full speed just before he hit the deck with his right shoulder, its presumably foam based, but hit it at sprinting speed and its going to be like falling flat on a dive into water, its going to hurt alot and Im not surprised he broke something in his shoulder as a result :(
  • dolan_driver
    dolan_driver Posts: 831
    Bluemoon17 wrote:
    Griepel: "Sometimes I should watch images before I say something. Apologies to @petosagan as I think that decision of the judge is too hard".

    Fair play to Griepel. Prepared to apologise when he believes that he has gotten it wrong.

    DD.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,253
    mfin wrote:
    Please make it stop.
    The ITV highlights show had a clip of Andy Schleck dropping his chain. We could talk about that instead.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • Frank Wilson
    Frank Wilson Posts: 930
    As one of the few Nacer fans that exist can I just say how touched I am by the people in this thread who have used him as a comparison.
  • m.r.m.
    m.r.m. Posts: 3,473
    The frame by frame picture collage really shows beautifully how Sagan didn't throw an elbow. Think the decision is too harsh, but I can understand how outcome colours such things.
    PTP Champion 2019, 2022 & 2023
  • Bo Duke
    Bo Duke Posts: 1,058
    The organisers have to ensure that 60km/hr sprints are safe. It's a disaster to lose Cav and Sagan of course but in the long term it ensures these accidents don't occur again. The message is clear - safety first. Everything else is semantics.
    'Performance analysis and Froome not being clean was a media driven story. I haven’t heard one guy in the peloton say a negative thing about Froome, and I haven’t heard a single person in the peloton suggest Froome isn’t clean.' TSP
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    This frame by frame stuff is odd.

    When I saw the sprint I thought "Sagan elbowed Cav and he crashed".

    Next thing I saw was Sagan going over to Cav and saying in an interview "I was partly to blame."

    I don't have strong views on if it's a DQ or whatever but he knew some punishment was inbound.

    All this "he's totally innocent" is just dying in a ditch chat. Not even Sagan agrees with you on that.
    _
  • FocusZing
    FocusZing Posts: 4,373
    edited July 2017
    Andre Greipel‏ @AndreGreipel 11h
    Sometimes I should watch images before I say something. Apologies to @petosagan as I think that decision of the judge is too hard.
    ^Who's said he's totally innocent? It's a racing incident!
  • slim_boy_fat
    slim_boy_fat Posts: 1,810
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    This frame by frame stuff is odd.

    When I saw the sprint I thought "Sagan elbowed Cav and he crashed".

    Next thing I saw was Sagan going over to Cav and saying in an interview "I was partly to blame."

    I don't have strong views on if it's a DQ or whatever but he knew some punishment was inbound.

    All this "he's totally innocent" is just dying in a ditch chat. Not even Sagan agrees with you on that.
    Agreed. You could hear the nervousness in his voice when he was interviewed straight after the stage. He knew he was going to cop some punishment.
  • richa
    richa Posts: 1,632
    Apparently Sagan's team have appealed...
    Rich
  • FocusZing
    FocusZing Posts: 4,373
    If you sent someone you get on with crashing to the ground with possible injuries, wouldn't you sound shaken?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
    FocusZing wrote:
      Andre Greipel‏ @AndreGreipel 11h
      Sometimes I should watch images before I say something. Apologies to @petosagan as I think that decision of the judge is too hard.
      ^Who's said he's totally innocent? It's a racing incident!

      People who are saying "Cav was already falling!!! The elbow is just instinct!! Nothing to do with the crash!! It's Cav's fault!!!"


      Now, what's a more worthy discussion is what a better punishment would be.

      My personal favourite would be 3hrs on GC and x number of points in every competition, where x is the number which is JUST about achievable but only if Sagan has a monster Tour....
      _
    • FocusZing
      FocusZing Posts: 4,373
      Hang on! Don't you have to establish if the elbow is intentional before you start on worthiness?
    • rick_chasey
      rick_chasey Posts: 75,661
      FocusZing wrote:
      Hang on! Don't you have to establish if the elbow is intentional before you start on worthiness?

      Fairly sure the jury has, and he himself said he was "partly to blame" so...
      _
    • pat1cp
      pat1cp Posts: 766
      Bo Duke wrote:
      The organisers have to ensure that 60km/hr sprints are safe. It's a disaster to lose Cav and Sagan of course but in the long term it ensures these accidents don't occur again. The message is clear - safety first. Everything else is semantics.
      They can't "ensure" a 60Km/h sprint is safe, there's got to be some danger when guys are bombing down the road trying to get on certain wheels etc.. And there's always going to be a bit argy bargy.

      Changing lines in the finale is the cause of most accidents, and usually the offence getting punished, so Demare should have been relegated/punished too.

      But as someone said, that's France's first sprint victory in Le Tour since Jimmy Casper in 2006. :roll:
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