TDF 2017: Stage 4- Mondorf-les-Bains - Vittel 207.5kms *Spoilers*

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  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    dish_dash wrote:
    AtC on the money about punishment.

    We've seen Sagan bullying his way around the peloton for a while... was bound to come a cropper at some point. He needed a bit of disciplining. The sport is bigger than the man. Journos sobbing about it have gone well down in my opinion - notably some of the american journos.
    You can see the stages of grief in their tweets. Denial - "Wasn't his fault", Anger - "The race will be ruined", Bargaining - "Bora have appealed, maybe the riders will protest".

    To follow: Depression "I'm not in the mood today" and Acceptance - "Hooray. We get to ask Froome the same doping questions yet again"
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    Jez mon wrote:
    Fundamentally, Cavendish went for a gap that was very tight
    This is utter nonsense. This is when Cavendish moved right and started to pass Sagan:
    34890617544_f269a57593_c.jpg
    There's so much room that the barrier on the right hand side of the road isn't even in the shot. How can you possibly claim that's a tight gap?

    Before Cav makes his move out, he also checks his shoulder, which Sagan doesn't do when he swings across the entire width of the road. By the time they collide Cav's fully alongside Sagan.
  • germcevoy
    germcevoy Posts: 414
    Graeme_S wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:
    Fundamentally, Cavendish went for a gap that was very tight
    This is utter nonsense. This is when Cavendish moved right and started to pass Sagan:
    34890617544_f269a57593_c.jpg
    There's so much room that the barrier on the right hand side of the road isn't even in the shot. How can you possibly claim that's a tight gap?

    Before Cav makes his move out, he also checks his shoulder, which Sagan doesn't do when he swings across the entire width of the road. By the time they collide Cav's fully alongside Sagan.

    The whole pack moved to the other side of the road yet only Sagan takes the blame.
  • maddog 2
    maddog 2 Posts: 8,114
    Jez mon wrote:
    Fundamentally, Cavendish went for a gap that was very tight, Sagan closed the door on him.

    That's my call too. Cav went for a gap that closed. Not intentionally, just the way it went. Elbow was a by-product of the squeeze, not the source of the crash.

    DQ him from the stage, fine him.... but the whole tour? Bad call. For me that would require intent , which there simply isn't, IMO.
    Facts are meaningless, you can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true! - Homer
  • graeme_s-2
    graeme_s-2 Posts: 3,382
    Germcevoy wrote:
    The whole pack moved to the other side of the road yet only Sagan takes the blame.
    Because Sagan was the only one who rode into a competitor causing him to crash into the barrier?
  • FocusZing
    FocusZing Posts: 4,373
    Dorset Boy wrote:
    FocusZing wrote:
    Looking forward to the next sprint to see what happens. A president set! Two down...

    President - who? The tangoed fool? :D

    Ha! Some excuse.
  • ContrelaMontre
    ContrelaMontre Posts: 3,027
    [rumour]Sagan reinstated[/rumour]
    Rule No.10 // It never gets easier, you just go faster
  • FocusZing
    FocusZing Posts: 4,373
    ^Detail?
  • Omar Little
    Omar Little Posts: 2,010
    A few seconds before the crash when they were on the other barriers Sagan was elbowing Bouhanni towards the barriers trying to force him off the wheel in front. Its from about 55 seconds in here https://u.nya.is/eyxtip.mp4

    If it had been reversed and Bouhanni had been doing that to Sagan (and was then responsible for the crash on Cavendish on the other side) then virtually no-one would be making allowances and excusing his riding.
  • imatfaal
    imatfaal Posts: 2,716
    ContrelaMontre wrote:
    [rumour]Sagan reinstated[/rumour]

    No news on the website, Sagan still listed as hors course, and it would be completely against precedent.

    I think if Cav went to commissionaires/jury and spoke on Sagan's behalf then possibly maybe potentially see a change - otherwise very unlikely. I must admit I was swayed by Greipel's comments - and then his very brave retraction made me rethink. If Greipel and Cav both said that it wasn't that bad then maybe a different outcome could be arranged
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,228
    ContrelaMontre wrote:
    [rumour]Sagan reinstated[/rumour]

    Have to be quick about it. His bike is apparently on the team car on the way to the start.
  • dish_dash
    dish_dash Posts: 5,647
    I wouldn't put it past him to try to just ride anyway...
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,228
    KingstonGraham wrote:
    ContrelaMontre wrote:
    [rumour]Sagan reinstated[/rumour]

    Have to be quick about it. His bike is apparently on the team car on the way to the start.

    But he's made a brief statement and decision is final. Gone.

    Says Matt Dickinson of The Times
  • No_Ta_Doctor
    No_Ta_Doctor Posts: 14,692
    Graeme_S wrote:
    Germcevoy wrote:
    The whole pack moved to the other side of the road yet only Sagan takes the blame.
    Because Sagan was the only one who rode into a competitor causing him to crash into the barrier?

    They moved to the right, then stabilised. Then Sagan shut the door.
    Warning No formatter is installed for the format
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,228
    Sagan: "I must accept the decision but I do not agree with it - I have done nothing wrong."

    Really?
  • ddraver
    ddraver Posts: 26,719
    (scrolling through twitter, I'm again astounded how Michael Rasmussen has become a credible commentator on cycling. Attacking Sky literally absolves one of any sin)
    We're in danger of confusing passion with incompetence
    - @ddraver
  • Jez mon
    Jez mon Posts: 3,809
    Graeme_S wrote:
    Germcevoy wrote:
    The whole pack moved to the other side of the road yet only Sagan takes the blame.
    Because Sagan was the only one who rode into a competitor causing him to crash into the barrier?

    So in this situation Sagan should just ride into the riders who are forcing him out wide?
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • Mad_Malx
    Mad_Malx Posts: 5,183
    Omar Little wrote:
    A few seconds before the crash when they were on the other barriers Sagan was elbowing Bouhanni towards the barriers trying to force him off the wheel in front. Its from about 55 seconds in here https://u.nya.is/eyxtip.mp4

    If it had been reversed and Bouhanni had been doing that to Sagan (and was then responsible for the crash on Cavendish on the other side) then virtually no-one would be making allowances and excusing his riding.

    That's the clip everyone should watch, rather than the truncated version.
    Sagan in the wrong and Cav no-where to go. The intent behind the elbow flick is dubious, so I'm firmly in the relegation rather than DQ camp.
  • Lanterne_Rogue
    Lanterne_Rogue Posts: 4,340
    Reinstating Sagan would be terrible for the sport - implies marketing and money more important than racing. Part of the problem with Armstrong is the way the sport colluded to allow him to carry on because he was good for viewing figures.
    Twitter: @canocola @thedreadships
  • onyourright
    onyourright Posts: 509
    Speaking of Armstrong, here’s his view (scroll down to Stage 4).
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,228
    Jez mon wrote:
    Graeme_S wrote:
    Germcevoy wrote:
    The whole pack moved to the other side of the road yet only Sagan takes the blame.
    Because Sagan was the only one who rode into a competitor causing him to crash into the barrier?

    So in this situation Sagan should just ride into the riders who are forcing him out wide?

    Which rider to Sagan's left are you thinking of? Bouhanni? He is already moving to his left, and then having to get out of Demare's way.
  • FocusZing
    FocusZing Posts: 4,373
    OnYourRight wrote:
    Speaking of Armstrong, here’s his view (scroll down to Stage 4).

    Cheers fella. No bullsh1t sense from LA.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    underlayunderlay wrote:
    Reinstating Sagan would be terrible for the sport - implies marketing and money more important than racing. Part of the problem with Armstrong is the way the sport colluded to allow him to carry on because he was good for viewing figures.
    If Sagan had punched Cavendish in the face the media would have raved about him sprinting one-handed
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 28,228
    OnYourRight wrote:
    Speaking of Armstrong, here’s his view (scroll down to Stage 4).

    He seems to say that he shouldn't have been kicked out because he's the biggest name in the sport. Ha.
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    FocusZing wrote:
    OnYourRight wrote:
    Speaking of Armstrong, here’s his view (scroll down to Stage 4).

    Cheers fella. No bullsh1t sense from LA.
    Although if he needs wheelies and hair for star quality he can stand outside my local chip shop and get that
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 75,660
    dish_dash wrote:
    AtC on the money about punishment.

    We've seen Sagan bullying his way around the peloton for a while... was bound to come a cropper at some point. He needed a bit of disciplining. The sport is bigger than the man. Journos sobbing about it have gone well down in my opinion - notably some of the american journos.

    And Aussie, despite offering them evidence to the contrary....

    https://twitter.com/rickchasey/status/8 ... 9021287428
    _
  • RichN95.
    RichN95. Posts: 27,262
    Rick Chasey wrote:
    dish_dash wrote:
    AtC on the money about punishment.

    We've seen Sagan bullying his way around the peloton for a while... was bound to come a cropper at some point. He needed a bit of disciplining. The sport is bigger than the man. Journos sobbing about it have gone well down in my opinion - notably some of the american journos.

    And Aussie, despite offering them evidence to the contrary....
    I think he's an American working for the Aussies
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • squired
    squired Posts: 1,153
    Being cynical, this is all great for the ASO. The Cav incident will get the race worldwide press. Without him or Sagan people will still win stages and even better (for the ASO) the chance of more French stage wins increases. Personally I feel Demare should have been penalised for a clear change of line, that ruined Bouhanni's sprint and was rather dangerous, but I guess it would have been different if he wasn't French.

    Without Sagan the race will still get as many viewers, but all of the press coverage around him being booted out may even increase the number slightly - just in time for the first uphill finish of the race. Yes, the hardcore fans might be unhappy, but the hardcore fans don't make up 95% of the viewers of the Tour. I bet a few people will have seen the video of the crash last night and will give the Tour a look today because of it. If it is an exciting finale they may watch a few more stages.
  • FocusZing
    FocusZing Posts: 4,373
    RichN95 wrote:
    FocusZing wrote:
    OnYourRight wrote:
    Speaking of Armstrong, here’s his view (scroll down to Stage 4).

    Cheers fella. No bullsh1t sense from LA.
    Although if he needs wheelies and hair for star quality he can stand outside my local chip shop and get that

    Ha, a glorious mental image prevailed.
  • imatfaal
    imatfaal Posts: 2,716
    Cycling Weekly saying appeal has been rejected

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