TDF 2017: Stage 4- Mondorf-les-Bains - Vittel 207.5kms *Spoilers*

Lanterne_Rogue

OCDuPalais wrote:

Much like the Kittle disc cutting Ben Swift's shoe accusations nonsense, that Sagan wilfully binned Cav has already been comprehensively confuted by the numerous video replays. The elbow movement is clearly a reaction not an intention..

Given the number of opinions out there, and the vociferousness of the way they're expressed, I think it's doubtful that the video evidence confutes anything.

blazing_saddles

C'mon UCI, rule up.
Parking sensors and wing mirrors to be fitted on sprinter's bikes.

specialgueststar

Madiot winding it up

https://www.facebook.com/equipecyclistefdj/videos/1402884333134625/

mfin

Well. The decision has been made rightly or wrongly because of the fact that the footage is not conclusive of that much.

Doesn't matter, big yawn and move on.

above_the_cows

birdie23

For me this has ruined the tour this year. Sick of sports being full of inconsistent decisions. If Sagan has been DQ'd for that then it won't be the last we see in sprints this year if the jury remains consistent.

ocdupalais

underlayunderlay wrote:

OCDuPalais wrote:

Much like the Kittle disc cutting Ben Swift's shoe accusations nonsense, that Sagan wilfully binned Cav has already been comprehensively confuted by the numerous video replays. The elbow movement is clearly a reaction not an intention..

Given the number of opinions out there, and the vociferousness of the way they're expressed, I think it's doubtful that the video evidence confutes anything.

That's because some choose to carry on making words in line with a view they've decided on (and are sticking with), despite evidence to the contrary...
I've no doubt I'll see the incident numerous more times whether I want to or not, and am happy to accept I might change my mind about Sagan's conduct: but the way the riders moved and the timeline of the contact feels to me very much commensurate with the Robbie McEwan version of events (see link earlier).

Dorset_Boy

I wonder whether the jury subsequently looked at the first crash and changed their decision as a result. the overhead strongly suggests the first was as a result of Sagan pushing through non existant gap between two FDJ riders, forcing the one on the left down and into the other riders.

Also did Sagan hit the back of Greipel's bike as the sprint started, then veered right as Demare and Cav were going past?

blazing_saddles

Rick Chasey wrote:

NOS interview one of the jury members.

Basically says Tour can't tolerate deliberately shoulder barging people into barriers, & they feel movement and the elbow particularly shows it's deliberate.

Currently watching.
Avond is currently getting owned by Vive le velo, guest wise.
Getting hard to spot a bloke.
Leontien van Moorsel and Thijs Zonneveld versus Robbie McEwen and Kris Boeckmans, tonight.
No contest.

dish_dash

ha ha... called Sagan's DQ pages ago. Boy needed taking down a peg or two...

Pross

No tA Doctor wrote:

OK, my take:
Sagan veers towards Cav, who had plenty of space before and is level (possibly in fornt) of him. As he closes in Cav leans in with his head (not a head-but) because Sagan's shoulder is coming at him at that height. He's got nowhere to go so has to hold his own as best he can. Sagan shoulder barges him, gets his arm caught on the hoods and flicks his elbow out.

I don't think the elbow caused the crash or was intentional. I do think Sagan closed the door on Cav intentionally and dangerously, using his shoulder.

Yep, pretty much how I saw it.

There's always a load of nonsense gets spouted with this sort of incident usually based on a single image from a poor camera angle but the suggestion that Cav was somehow at fault for using his head to push back is about the most ludicrous I've heard. Sending Sagan home seems harsh but I'd say his action was worse than Renshaw when he got kicked off the race (I can't believe that was 7 years ago!).

slim_boy_fat

Pross wrote:

No tA Doctor wrote:

OK, my take:
Sagan veers towards Cav, who had plenty of space before and is level (possibly in fornt) of him. As he closes in Cav leans in with his head (not a head-but) because Sagan's shoulder is coming at him at that height. He's got nowhere to go so has to hold his own as best he can. Sagan shoulder barges him, gets his arm caught on the hoods and flicks his elbow out.

I don't think the elbow caused the crash or was intentional. I do think Sagan closed the door on Cav intentionally and dangerously, using his shoulder.

Yep, pretty much how I saw it.

There's always a load of nonsense gets spouted with this sort of incident usually based on a single image from a poor camera angle but the suggestion that Cav was somehow at fault for using his head to push back is about the most ludicrous I've heard. Sending Sagan home seems harsh but I'd say his action was worse than Renshaw when he got kicked off the race (I can't believe that was 7 years ago!).

It's also possible that Cavendish was leaning his head to the left to avoid the idiots with their arms over the barriers trying to take a photograph.

coopster_the_1st

The photo showing the sprint does not give the full picture. Cav was on Demare's wheel and Sagan's impeding has forced Cav backwards and made it look like Cav was going for a gap when in reality he was being baulked.

ITV4(Boardman) summed up the sprint really well including something that cause all the sprinters to drift right as the sprint was starting.

In hindsight Sagan did not need to move further to the right(and into Cav) to jump on Demare's wheel as a split second later he was moving back to the left to catch the draft from Kristoff's wheel.

I'm 50/50 on the Sagan DQ. I think a punishment should take into account the damage done as it demonstrates the danger taken. Cav falling took 2 other riders down as well. Sagan's elbow does look intentional and if it is that's a DQ no matter what it will do to the excitement of the race.

Demare should also be relegated as Bouhanni had to take evasive action with Griepel taking even more extreme evasive action because of the Demare move. Demare had space to ride up the right side of Kristoff

blazing_saddles

RichN95 wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

I would like to know more about the allegations that were being aired on Dutch Eurosport of Sagan being involved/the cause of the crash that took out Kittel and G at 1.5 to go.

Unless they have access to different footage than was broadcast, there's no way they can tell.

Avondetappe had the overhead camera in slow motion.
Basically, he was coming through a gap between two FDJ riders and the gap closed. He put out a hand to move the rider on his right a bit, but the rider on his left went down, almost taking out Demare.
To me, it was clearly this rider, moving to his right, who caused the crash, but in the current climate......

above_the_cows

Trying to catch up with Avondettape now but the player isn't working. Grrrr.

Lanterne_Rogue

Blazing Saddles wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Above The Cows wrote:

I would like to know more about the allegations that were being aired on Dutch Eurosport of Sagan being involved/the cause of the crash that took out Kittel and G at 1.5 to go.

Unless they have access to different footage than was broadcast, there's no way they can tell.

Avondetappe had the overhead camera in slow motion.
Basically, he was coming through a gap between two FDJ riders and the gap closed. He put out a hand to move the rider on his right a bit, but the rider on his left went down, almost taking out Demare.
To me, it was clearly this rider, moving to his right, who caused the crash, but in the current climate......

Isn't taking a hand off the bars in close quarters a bit of a no-no anyway though?

slim_boy_fat

Looks like Cav is out as well.

https://twitter.com/tomcary_tel/status/ ... 3521728512

above_the_cows

MY MAN!!!!!

Lanterne_Rogue

Broken shoulderblade is quite something. Hardly a surprise that he's out (if confirmed) though.

gweeds

underlayunderlay wrote:

Broken shoulderblade is quite something. Hardly a surprise that he's out (if confirmed) though.

I broke mine in a motorbike crash a few years back (along with hip, knee, wrist, ribs and shoulder blade). It hurts.

slim_boy_fat

Confirmed on Sky Sports News. He's out.

above_the_cows

gweeds

It's a poorer race for the absence of both of them.

kingstonian

He was DQ'd almost certainly because of the two crashes in quick succession. The first he was clearly at fault, he could have touched his brakes and scrubbed some speed but chose to barge his way in-between two riders. Then the second ended up with Cav in a barrier at 60kph, which could easily have ended far worse than a cut finger and injured shoulder.

I don't think the judges had any option but to DQ him. If you let a rider stay on the Tour after those two incidents within a couple of km of each other, what would it take to DQ someone ?!?!?!

mfin

At least Cav being out saves him from also being dq-ed, he did take out the other two that went down after all. Selfish.

above_the_cows

This is a lovely picture. Sob.

bluemoon17

Griepel: "Sometimes I should watch images before I say something. Apologies to @petosagan as I think that decision of the judge is too hard".

Lanterne_Rogue

For anyone wondering about the riders who came down after Cavendish, Degenkolb has a sore shoulder afterwards: http://www.cyclingpub.com/article/2381/John+Degenkolb%3A+I+had+a+pretty+bad+crash

Ben Swift 'relatively unhurt':
https://twitter.com/swiftybswift/status/882314227368808448
https://www.facebook.com/RideMagazineSA/posts/1716574948357522

Pross

Wonder if Cav injured the shoulder in the crash or when Degenkolb? rode into him when he was on the ground? He appeared to slide down the barriers so as sprint crashes go it should have been a relatively soft landing but then he got hit hard on the ground.

blazing_saddles

Kingstonian wrote:

He was DQ'd almost certainly because of the two crashes in quick succession. The first he was clearly at fault, he could have touched his brakes and scrubbed some speed but chose to barge his way in-between two riders. Then the second ended up with Cav in a barrier at 60kph, which could easily have ended far worse than a cut finger and injured shoulder.

I don't think the judges had any option but to DQ him. If you let a rider stay on the Tour after those two incidents within a couple of km of each other, what would it take to DQ someone ?!?!?!

No, he wasn't.
The FDJ rider on his left touches the rear wheel of a Lotto-Soudal rider who was bringing Greipel up, causing him to move right, into Sagan's path, falling the process.
In pile the rest.