TDF 2017: Stage 4- Mondorf-les-Bains - Vittel 207.5kms *Spoilers*

No_Ta_Doctor

Mad_Malx wrote:

Omar Little wrote:

A few seconds before the crash when they were on the other barriers Sagan was elbowing Bouhanni towards the barriers trying to force him off the wheel in front. Its from about 55 seconds in here https://u.nya.is/eyxtip.mp4

If it had been reversed and Bouhanni had been doing that to Sagan (and was then responsible for the crash on Cavendish on the other side) then virtually no-one would be making allowances and excusing his riding.

That's the clip everyone should watch, rather than the truncated version.
Sagan in the wrong and Cav no-where to go. The intent behind the elbow flick is dubious, so I'm firmly in the relegation rather than DQ camp.

Yes. Looking at the longer clip you can see Sagan starts barging - with an elbow stuck out - far earlier. He's on Bouhani's wheel and tries to go round him on the right for Demare's. That pushes Cav closer in to the barriers. Then Sagan veers again and takes Cav out.

dinyull

imatfaal wrote:

Cycling Weekly saying appeal has been rejected

Was curious to how an appeal would work seeing as they said the decision couldn't be appealed?!

No_Ta_Doctor

I'll also add that the debate here has parallels with the "he's not that sort of player" when someone in football breaks an opponent's leg with a badly timed over-the-ball challenge. They might get away with a yellow for that, but square up and push a player a bit and it's a straight red for violent conduct and a three match ban.

Sagan was at best reckless and dangerous, at worst intentionally put Cav into the barriers.

craigus89

Sorry to go over this again. But what I would like to know is if there is precedent for this type of punishment for this type of 'offense'. Does deviating from a line mean you can be DQ'd from an entire race, rather than just a stage? Has it happened before?

I'm assuming the severity of the punishment is because they feel he intended to put him into the barrier. But how do you prove intent. Seems like a massive overreaction from the jury in my opinion.

FocusZing

Dinyull wrote:

imatfaal wrote:

Cycling Weekly saying appeal has been rejected

Was curious to how an appeal would work seeing as they said the decision couldn't be appealed?!

graeme_s-2

Jez mon wrote:

Graeme_S wrote:

Germcevoy wrote:

The whole pack moved to the other side of the road yet only Sagan takes the blame.

Because Sagan was the only one who rode into a competitor causing him to crash into the barrier?

So in this situation Sagan should just ride into the riders who are forcing him out wide?

There's a point in the sprint where Sagan has room to his left and there's a Cav sized space between him and the barriers (that is being filled by Cav) - that's as far right as he's allowed to go. At that point he needs to carry on in a straight line, or move back to the left. He continues to go right and checks Cav into the barrier. That's worth a relegation to last on the stage and a green jersey points penalty. The DQ from the tour seems over the top to me.

dinyull

Watching that video and thinking of rider safety - should they think of introducing a 1m "safe" gap next to the barriers?

So a white line a meter away from both barriers inside the last 750/500m. The sprint isn't allowed to encroach and allows a safe run off for events like yesterday. You could extend it to the flame rouge allowing leadout men to safely get out of the way.

The obvious counter to this is you then have to find roads wide enough to allow a bunch sprint and the less space could mean more tangling of riders.

Most bunch spring tangling is because of the barriers imo.

dish_dash

Craigus89 wrote:

Sorry to go over this again. But what I would like to know is if there is precedent for this type of punishment for this type of 'offense'. Does deviating from a line mean you can be DQ'd from an entire race, rather than just a stage? Has it happened before?

I'm assuming the severity of the punishment is because they feel he intended to put him into the barrier. But how do you prove intent. Seems like a massive overreaction from the jury in my opinion.

Renshaw was thrown off the tour for a headbutt. Steels for chucking a bidon... neither resulted in their competitors crashing and injuring themselves.

larkim

That's my solution to this too - though I'd prefer a blue line rather than a white one...

Sort of a "neutral zone" where you have to be off the power (so you can't just abuse it to go around) but to give you at least a fighting chance to avoid the barriers if someone moves across the line.

Bo Duke

The nanny state wins again? Maybe they should also give Cav stabilisers?

kingstongraham

Bo Duke wrote:

The nanny state wins again? Maybe they should also give Cav stabilisers?

Nice. What about making disc brakes into Ben Hur style blades on the wheels to keep Sagan away?

graeme_s-2

KingstonGraham wrote:

Bo Duke wrote:

The nanny state wins again? Maybe they should also give Cav stabilisers?

Nice. What about making disc brakes into Ben Hur style blades on the wheels to keep Sagan away?

You know the race director for the Hammer series will be reading this and taking notes!

salsiccia1

It's done now. Move on everyone.

kingstongraham

Salsiccia1 wrote:

It's done now. Move on everyone.

There's still 20 minutes. Get Jack Bauer on the case.

PuttyKnees

Is there any requirement to shoulder check in road racing? I'm not aware of it, but if you move without checking on the track there is always some aging commissaire that will start going nuclear on you.

graeme_s-2

PuttyKnees wrote:

Is there any requirement to shoulder check in road racing? I'm not aware of it, but if you move without checking on the track there is always some aging commissaire that will start going nuclear on you.

Being aware of what's going on around you and not crashing into people would seem like a good idea. Cav shoulder checked before he made his move.

FocusZing

Blah, blah, blah...

Sorry to hear Cav out. He deserved some good luck this tour.

salsiccia1

Deserve's got nothing to do with it

mididoctors

"if social media ruled the world"......Donald Trump would get elected

FocusZing

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Deserve's got nothing to do with it

Whatever just sad to see him out.

fat daddy

squired wrote:

Without Sagan the race will still get as many viewers.

I m not sure about that ... remember the 2014 TdF when everyone interesting either Broke their legs, fell off, retired etc and all that was left was Nibali to cross the line and wave his arms around like he had done well. I found a lot that incredibly boring once the "celebs" for a better word had disappeared .... I think I even started missing a few days to let the Wife watch the Tennis

With Valverde out, Cav out, Sagan out .... its turning in to 2014 again, it wont Be long before G is out if he doesn't stop falling off his bike ,

TV veiwings will drop if they don't retain a certain core of interesting riders

That all said, Keeping someone in just because of there name is stupid .. .at that point you might as well just watch F1

mfin

FocusZing wrote:

Hmmm, that's dodgy, anyone can see that it's clearly Sagan's handwriting.

squired

fat daddy wrote:

squired wrote:

Without Sagan the race will still get as many viewers.

I m not sure about that ... remember the 2014 TdF when everyone interesting either Broke their legs, fell off, retired etc and all that was left was Nibali to cross the line and wave his arms around like he had done well. I found a lot that incredibly boring once the "celebs" for a better word had disappeared .... I think I even started missing a few days to let the Wife watch the Tennis

With Valverde out, Cav out, Sagan out .... its turning in to 2014 again, it wont Be long before G is out if he doesn't stop falling off his bike ,

TV veiwings will drop if they don't retain a certain core of interesting riders

That all said, Keeping someone in just because of there name is stupid .. .at that point you might as well just watch F1

The point is that the hardcore fan might miss Sagan, but the majority of Tour watchers aren't. A perfect example is a couple of guys in my office who were coming over to my desk this week to watch stage finishes. They don't know who anyone is. So, Sagan or no Sagan, they don't care. Sprints will still be sprints. However, with all the press this has got more people will tune in to see what all the fuss is about. Its the same if a few of the GC guys leave the race - if it is still competitive the non-hardcore viewer will not even notice (bar some local viewing peaks if riders from their country are doing particularly well).

mfin

Anyway ...a new day, a new stage, the tour continues.

fat daddy

mfin wrote:

Anyway ...a new day, a new stage, the tour continues.

yeah and there is a new thread for that as well .. this thread is about stage 4

I still think Sagan was using the come on by elbow flick to indicate that Cav should come past ...... not Sagans fault Cav rode into it

blazing_saddles

underlayunderlay wrote:

Reinstating Sagan would be terrible for the sport - implies marketing and money more important than racing. Part of the problem with Armstrong is the way the sport colluded to allow him to carry on because he was good for viewing figures.

Booting him out yet not punishing Demare for riding across Bouhanni's line also sent out a message alone those lines, according to Vive le Velo.
Something to do with clandestine French shenanigans.........

Edit:- According to Hatch just now, DD appealed the judges decision and got the sanction upgraded.
So, appeal/s allowed even though it's against the rules?

RichN95.

The five stages of grief, as illustrated by cycling journalists

above_the_cows

smithy21 wrote:

No she isn't.

This will still happen. You are asking athletes to make spilt second decisions in the heat of battle. They will get some wrong.

Not just in cycling- disciplining people in rugby doesn't stamp out players smacking each other, eye gouging, late hits.

Well Kittel and Matthews agree with me so I'll go with them all the same thanks.

above_the_cows

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

dish_dash wrote:

AtC on the money about punishment.

We've seen Sagan bullying his way around the peloton for a while... was bound to come a cropper at some point. He needed a bit of disciplining. The sport is bigger than the man. Journos sobbing about it have gone well down in my opinion - notably some of the american journos.

Setting up a gofundme just to fund Kleenex for them to cry into

That's not the only thing they'll be doing with their Kleenex.

Bo Duke

Brian Smith complaineth too much.