TDF 2017: Stage 4- Mondorf-les-Bains - Vittel 207.5kms *Spoilers*

larkim

tonyf34 wrote:

Pross wrote:

Oh, and are people really still using the word 'mong' in 2017?

I'll use whatever descriptive I like, if you don't like it, do something about it by reporting it to the moderators. :roll:

For those of us with kids with Down's Syndrome, take it from me that we'd much rather you updated your vocabulary to something more appropriate. In fact, very much so.

onyourright

I don’t think Sagan’s elbow was for balance, but was it actually hooked over Cavendish’s bars and pulled out by the latter’s falling over?

FocusZing

^Yeah, it has to be seen in motion.

w00dster

Only seen it quickly not had the chance to review it propwrly, my first impression was Sagans direction changed and was pushing Cav towards the barrier, Cav leaned in and was elbowed out. I didn't see what caused Sagan to veer towards Cav (if he did)
The Twitter link above would be good if it showed the lead up to Cav leaning in.

DQ is harsh though. Seen a lot worse, including by Cav.

Any links to the full sprint and the earlier crash also apparently Sagan's fault? Not seen it so not sure if it was or not.

ben@31

I read it will be the first time since 2011 that some else will win the green jersey.
Sagan had won it 5 times in a row.

kleinstroker

Germcevoy wrote:

Cav is a madman for trying to make that gap. The road was clear for hi. Before Sagan jumped to chase Demare. The elbow looks bad in real time but watch back in slo-mo or frame be frame and its Cav that makes contact with Sagan using his head. Cav is on his way down before Sagan shoots the elbow out to keep himself balanced.

I would agree with all of that except Sagan wasnt off balance and elbow deliberate but probably not vindictive, more instinctive.

reborn2

Reading some of the posts on the cycling weekly fb page on the crash leaves me loosing faith in humanity.

kiwimatt

ben@31 wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

Pross wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

kiwimatt wrote:

Sagan is hardly boxed in. Could have easily conceded to the left. Bad.

Alternately why should he concede? It's a race.

Poor effort,I'll give that a 2/10.

Well why should he concede? Maybe stop pedalling all together or perhaps lead cav out? I don't agree with the elbow but equally I don't think he should concede to someone still behind him.

I was thinking something similar... If Cav is behind Sagan, does Sagan have to give way or is avoiding collision down to Cav? Every time I see a sprint on tv they all look all over the road and boxing each other in.

Concede - that was a poor choice of verb chaps. Not suggesting he pulled over and waved him through. Simply pointing out that there is loads of room, to the left, but he chooses to continue right, and chuck the elbow. DQ harsh though.

No_Ta_Doctor

OK, my take:
Sagan veers towards Cav, who had plenty of space before and is level (possibly in fornt) of him. As he closes in Cav leans in with his head (not a head-but) because Sagan's shoulder is coming at him at that height. He's got nowhere to go so has to hold his own as best he can. Sagan shoulder barges him, gets his arm caught on the hoods and flicks his elbow out.

I don't think the elbow caused the crash or was intentional. I do think Sagan closed the door on Cav intentionally and dangerously, using his shoulder.

DeVlaeminck

Can't agreewith Germcevoy about Cav, I think Cav has committed to the gap and is almost level by the time Sagan closes the door. If he doesn't go for gaps like that he's not going to win many sprints.

BelgianBeerGeek

Seemed a bit harsh to me too, but such are the fortunes of war...
Thought "TCR (Total Control Racing)" by the Sleaford Mods as the ITV evening coverage play out tune was pretty cool/poor taste - take your pick.

DeVlaeminck

Head on shot in super slow-mo looks pretty bad - Cav is pretty much alongside by the time Sagan has passed the point where he might be able to pull out - he must know there is a rider on his inside against the barriers.

germcevoy

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Can't agreewith Germcevoy about Cav, I think Cav has committed to the gap and is almost level by the time Sagan closes the door. If he doesn't go for gaps like that he's not going to win many sprints.

That's fair but no way an offence worthy of being thrown from the race. Demare deviating substantially more and got a stage win. My big gripe is that the consequence has been punished rather than the action. None of the evidence is conclusive so how the commissaries feel it was a sackable offence is insane.

Lanterne_Rogue

Germcevoy wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Can't agreewith Germcevoy about Cav, I think Cav has committed to the gap and is almost level by the time Sagan closes the door. If he doesn't go for gaps like that he's not going to win many sprints.

That's fair but no way an offence worthy of being thrown from the race. Demare deviating substantially more and got a stage win. My big gripe is that the consequence has been punished rather than the action. None of the evidence is conclusive so how the commissaries feel it was a sackable offence is insane.

Interestingly the jury claim to have looked at Demare and decided that it wasn't as bad (although it perhaps puts him on notice, given they've even announced this). Presumably it's throwing the elbow that made the difference, although I doubt we'l ever get the full story. Source was Cycling News.

imatfaal

It will be interesting to hear Sagan's reaction. He can be monosyllabic at times - but he can also be disarmingly honest and self-critical.

On incident - immediate reaction was that Sagan has taken out Cav (you can scroll up and see that), not really changed on reflection. If you do something which is reckless and endangers other riders then you put yourself in the lap of gods - and on this occasion the jury were harsh but not unjust.

DeVlaeminck

Germcevoy wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Can't agreewith Germcevoy about Cav, I think Cav has committed to the gap and is almost level by the time Sagan closes the door. If he doesn't go for gaps like that he's not going to win many sprints.

That's fair but no way an offence worthy of being thrown from the race. Demare deviating substantially more and got a stage win. My big gripe is that the consequence has been punished rather than the action. None of the evidence is conclusive so how the commissaries feel it was a sackable offence is insane.

Well the more I've watched it the more I think Sagan's offence is a fair bit worse.

Sagan and Demare both deviate from their line but Demare obstructs a rider who was relative to the main contenders going backwards, Sagan obstructs a rider who is clearly coming past him so it's a block.

Secondly Sagan deviates then must be aware he's closing the door illegally but continues to stick his elbow out (prior to throwing the elbow so nothing to do with trying to stay upright) and then when Cav is literally level with him makes another move towards the barriers. I would say by the letter of the law Demare should be relegated but we'd see a fair few relegations if they applied the letter of the law irrespective of whether it altered the result, Sagan's DQ is surprising given how rare it is but not harsh.

rick_chasey

NOS interview one of the jury members.

Basically says Tour can't tolerate deliberately shoulder barging people into barriers, & they feel movement and the elbow particularly shows it's deliberate.

RichN95.

Delete so I can get it on a new page

micrographia

On the fence about whether Sagan was dangerously careless or intentionally a dick. The fact he did it so close to the barriers leaving Cav with nowhere to go has to be taken into account though. That, and the lack of actual contact, is what differentiates it from Demares dick move on Bouhanni. A lot of sprint finishes left this year - reckon the race jury want to make a statement about not deviating from your line, hence the DQ.

RichN95.

rick_chasey

What this does show, is that jury decisions are always sh!t.

FocusZing

I would be interested to hear LAs take on it.

ben@31

RichN95 wrote:

I'm impressed you got the right frame number. But I think that frame was the fatal blow and not the reactionary head movement

rick_chasey

Out of interest, days like this would be improved with another race, say a women's race, occurring 90mins or so ahead of the men....

germcevoy

Can't wait until the next sprint stage. The race jury have heaped a lot of pressure on themselves for anything that isn't a textbook sprint.

above_the_cows

Well you go out for a few biers and it all goes a bit crazy.

I would like to know more about the allegations that were being aired on Dutch Eurosport of Sagan being involved/the cause of the crash that took out Kittel and G at 1.5 to go.

I hope that MY MAN can start tomorrow as he was looking good there today before getting a face full of funny bone.

Meanwhile Sagan can now look after Mrs Sagan and cook her some tasty treats.

slim_boy_fat

Above The Cows wrote:

Well you go out for a few biers and it all goes a bit crazy.

I would like to know more about the allegations that were being aired on Dutch Eurosport of Sagan being involved/the cause of the crash that took out Kittel and G at 1.5 to go.

I hope that MY MAN can start tomorrow as he was looking good there today before getting a face full of funny bone.

Meanwhile Sagan can now look after Mrs Sagan and cook her some tasty treats.

Just seen the first crash again on Eurosport highlights and they try and blame Sagan but looks like two FDJ riders came together ahead of him and gave Sagan nowhere to go and he just rode through them knocking them over.

norvernrob

Above The Cows wrote:

Well you go out for a few biers and it all goes a bit crazy.

I would like to know more about the allegations that were being aired on Dutch Eurosport of Sagan being involved/the cause of the crash that took out Kittel and G at 1.5 to go.

I hope that MY MAN can start tomorrow as he was looking good there today before getting a face full of funny bone.

Meanwhile Sagan can now look after Mrs Sagan and cook her some tasty treats.

ITV4 highlights have just shown what happened with that crash at 1.5k. There are two FDJ riders and Sagan looks to just ride between them and knock them out of the way, causing the crash. It's only one angle, but it's an overhead one and looks fairly clear though I'm not sure if they were converging on him or not.

ocdupalais

micrographia wrote:

On the fence about whether Sagan was dangerously careless or intentionally a dick. The fact he did it so close to the barriers leaving Cav with nowhere to go has to be taken into account though. That, and the lack of actual contact, is what differentiates it from Demares dick move on Bouhanni. A lot of sprint finishes left this year - reckon the race jury want to make a statement about not deviating from your line, hence the DQ.

The only reason there was no contact with Bouhanni and Demare is because Bouhanni stopped pedalling and swerved away as Demare cut in front.
Much like the Kittle disc cutting Ben Swift's shoe accusations nonsense, that Sagan wilfully binned Cav has already been comprehensively confuted by the numerous video replays. The elbow movement is clearly a reaction not an intention.
As other have said - including both Boardman and Robbie McEwan: the commissaries have looked at the consequences rather than the action.
They should've stuck with their original penalty for Sagan.
They've missed a trick as they could've done for the green jersey comp what Dumoulin's poo did for the GC comp in the Giro.

RichN95.

Above The Cows wrote:

I would like to know more about the allegations that were being aired on Dutch Eurosport of Sagan being involved/the cause of the crash that took out Kittel and G at 1.5 to go.

Unless they have access to different footage than was broadcast, there's no way they can tell.