CMS hearings into the alleged culture of doping and bullying at British Cycling

slim_boy_fat

Garry H wrote:

SPaM02 wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Roan's latest effort:-

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/39306190
His opening line being:-

A cycling anti-doping body (CADF) is investigating claims by British rider Josh Edmondson that Team Sky covered up his use of banned injections.

I see anti-doping crusader Dan is in Dublin to watch the Rugby. I wonder if he'll ask questions about the large amount of rugby players currently on the UKAD ADV banned list compared to the 5 cyclists.
- nope, I thought not.

He knows on which side his bread is buttered...

This. I replied to a tweet of his last week telling us he was off to Twickers asking if he would be in full investigative journalist mode to look for any potential doping in rugby. Deafening silence.

salsiccia1

^^Great post, Rick.

blazing_saddles

Rick Chasey wrote:

Quite.

Though I'd add that there is a large amount of humiliation avoidance. I think (and this is all relative, and not really in the context of a rider's depression) more fans were essentially let down or even humiliated by Armstrong's admission. We've all had the conversation for 10 years between 2002 and 2012 with some ardent fan where we went "chances are he did dope" "nuh uh, he's a cancer survivor. He does charity work. He's my idol".

Now of course you look a bit like a fool if you said that. So now there's a whole bunch who are desperate not to be fooled again, so call dope at everything just in case.

Some like to feel or hope that their humiliation wasn't unique. The glee which an (unsurprisingly) American forum has when they feel it's "Armstrong all over again with sky and Brits" is fairly strong.

There's also some evidence to suggest more broadly that humiliation is one of the triggers for troll like behaviour in people, so again, it's no surprise most of the pro race trolls are trolling about doping, and mainly about a team that in many ways does resemble US Postal (dominant, similar tactics, English speaking, new set of fans as a result of their success with little prior interest).

The thing is, if sky are caught doping, they think geezers like me will be humiliated like they were.

Only they're so hot for it, they can't see ]a more nuanced argument. They also can't see, because they haven't been watching for long enough, that for a lot of people, we can contextualise it, and have done already in the past, and move on.

So when (and they're mainly American) trolls come on here shouting "sky dope" until their keyboards groan under the pounding of the keyboard, they don't want people to really agree with them, unless it's to admit humiliation. They want the denial, because it validates their own previous mistake and offers them the chance to be the "I told you so" hero, and witness the humiliation of others.

Chapeau, Rick spot on.
Especially this bit, for me.

tailwindhome

[Thread suspended due to race in progress]

sherer

TailWindHome wrote:

[Thread suspended due to race in progress]

Couldn't agree more. Great to get the season underway

No_Ta_Doctor

What I'll probably be most pissed off about if it turns out Sky have been shooting up industrial quantities of EPO is all the trolls coming on here to rub our "fanboy" noses in it. As if the tea-leaf reading that passes for critical thought with them actually meant something or provided some evidence.

Meanwhile, the default position on this forum is actually far closer to "On the balance of probability, Sky are most likely clean, tough maybe a little fast and loose in grey areas, but individual riders might not be". It's just that any objection to the mystic divination of truth by the doperati is equated to wilful ignorance born of nationalism/hero-worship or some other fatal character flaw.

It's basically an epistemological battle with petty insults thrown in.

And +1 on the chapeaus for Rick's post.

Now let's get back to the racing!

No_Ta_Doctor

TailWindHome wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Suppose we'll have to discuss the Josh Edmondson news now - who is lying him or Sky management ?

Surely it's great news that he was dobbed in by another rider? Seems from what Peters said they were thinking of his health and mental state above anything. If they had dobbed him into the authorities what effect would it have had on him. How does he benefit from telling his story now?

I wonder who dobbed him in - EBH, Deignan, Cataldo, Puccio, Swift, Siutsiu or Henao Jr?

He never rode for Sky again either.

And it's also notable that this is still really low level doping - stuff that is legal in most other sports.

R5 named Boswell. His roommate apparently

Boswell didn't ride the 2014 tour of Poland. The seven in bold above did.

top_bhoy

Watching the way fields were dismantled on a daily basis, there are many who never really believed in the Armstrong fairytale and who now consider that Sky have at least a case to answer which warrants further investigation. I don't see this stance and being critical of Sky/BC, as trolling.

The CMS are not scientists but I believe they are competent to investigate and make an assessment on whether the proscribed anti-doping controls and processes were adhered to. There are better technically qualified groups/organisations who could undertake the investigation but I like that it is in a public forum with little room for back-room deals to be done in order to save reputations. The reticence, uncertainty and general lack of competency shown by Sky and BC thus far has brought about a situation of their own making. To criticise the CMS and the media in general for wanting answers is akin to shooting the messenger.

tailwindhome

No tA Doctor wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

RichN95 wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Suppose we'll have to discuss the Josh Edmondson news now - who is lying him or Sky management ?

Surely it's great news that he was dobbed in by another rider? Seems from what Peters said they were thinking of his health and mental state above anything. If they had dobbed him into the authorities what effect would it have had on him. How does he benefit from telling his story now?

I wonder who dobbed him in - EBH, Deignan, Cataldo, Puccio, Swift, Siutsiu or Henao Jr?

He never rode for Sky again either.

And it's also notable that this is still really low level doping - stuff that is legal in most other sports.

R5 named Boswell. His roommate apparently

Boswell didn't ride the 2014 tour of Poland. The seven in bold above did.

It's being widely reported as Boswell.

Reading the BBC article again, it's not saying that the evidence was discovered AT the Tour of Poland

While Edmondson was racing at the Tour of Poland, his secret was exposed when a team-mate took photographs of the vitamins and equipment he had bought, and reported it to team management.

"I got back from that and noticed all the vitamins which had been hidden in my room were on top of this chest of drawers - and I realised I'd been caught out," said Edmondson.

awavey

TailWindHome wrote:

It's being widely reported as Boswell.

Reading the BBC article again, it's not saying that the evidence was discovered AT the Tour of Poland

While Edmondson was racing at the Tour of Poland, his secret was exposed when a team-mate took photographs of the vitamins and equipment he had bought, and reported it to team management.

"I got back from that and noticed all the vitamins which had been hidden in my room were on top of this chest of drawers - and I realised I'd been caught out," said Edmondson.

yep my impression when I read it the first time was it was all taken out of the hidey place whilst Edmondson was at the Tour of Poland, and he found it had been discovered when he got back to the shared house he was living in at the time.

No_Ta_Doctor

Ok, thanks for paying attention where I obviously haven't!

bobmcstuff

No tA Doctor wrote:

What I'll probably be most pissed off about if it turns out Sky have been shooting up industrial quantities of EPO is all the trolls coming on here to rub our "fanboy" noses in it. As if the tea-leaf reading that passes for critical thought with them actually meant something or provided some evidence.

Meanwhile, the default position on this forum is actually far closer to "On the balance of probability, Sky are most likely clean, tough maybe a little fast and loose in grey areas, but individual riders might not be". It's just that any objection to the mystic divination of truth by the doperati is equated to wilful ignorance born of nationalism/hero-worship or some other fatal character flaw.

It's basically an epistemological battle with petty insults thrown in.

And +1 on the chapeaus for Rick's post.

Now let's get back to the racing!

+1

Some of what sky have been doing is fully in "arched eyebrow" territory but as yet there's still nothing on the level that there was with Lance.

And I have nothing to lose if Sky turns out to be completely filthy, I really resent the implication that because I'm not waving the pitchfork I must therefore be a Sky fan boy and believe they're 100% clean.

Vino'sGhost

It will give me no pleasure when sky are busted. But I will enjoy rubbing some people's noses in it

Richmond Racer 2

Rick Chasey wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

rubertoe wrote:

This is the only thing that matters, As someone who has suffered from depression, it is very easy to fall down very quickly and you can end up doing stupid and irrational things.

Hope Josh (and by his own admission) is getting all the help that he needs.

Don't come on here with your concern and proper perspective, as if anyone involved are real people with real feelings who sometimes get things wrong, with different shades of light and dark to deal with. This whole thing is just a morality tale for spectators to pin their prejudices and petty agendas on, and apply black-and-white judgements to, and don't you forget it.

*waves fist*

Quite.

Though I'd add that there is a large amount of humiliation avoidance. I think (and this is all relative, and not really in the context of a rider's depression) more fans were essentially let down or even humiliated by Armstrong's admission. We've all had the conversation for 10 years between 2002 and 2012 with some ardent fan where we went "chances are he did dope" "nuh uh, he's a cancer survivor. He does charity work. He's my idol".

Now of course you look a bit like a fool if you said that. So now there's a whole bunch who are desperate not to be fooled again, so call dope at everything just in case.

Some like to feel or hope that their humiliation wasn't unique. The glee which an (unsurprisingly) American forum has when they feel it's "Armstrong all over again with sky and Brits" is fairly strong.

There's also some evidence to suggest more broadly that humiliation is one of the triggers for troll like behaviour in people, so again, it's no surprise most of the pro race trolls are trolling about doping, and mainly about a team that in many ways does resemble US Postal (dominant, similar tactics, English speaking, new set of fans as a result of their success with little prior interest).

The thing is, if sky are caught doping, they think geezers like me will be humiliated like they were.

Only they're so hot for it, they can't see a more nuanced argument. They also can't see, because they haven't been watching for long enough, that for a lot of people, we can contextualise it, and have done already in the past, and move on.

So when (and they're mainly American) trolls come on here shouting "sky dope" until their keyboards groan under the pounding of the keyboard, they don't want people to really agree with them, unless it's to admit humiliation. They want the denial, because it validates their own previous mistake and offers them the chance to be the "I told you so" hero, and witness the humiliation of others.

Great post, Rick. Reckon you sum it up well for many of us

bobmcstuff

Vino'sGhost wrote:

It will give me no pleasure when sky are busted. But I will enjoy rubbing some people's noses in it

What a sad life you lead...

Richmond Racer 2

bobmcstuff wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

It will give me no pleasure when sky are busted. But I will enjoy rubbing some people's noses in it

What a sad life you lead...

Characteristic of a troll. Usually have poor self-esteem, make no impact on other people's lives so try to give themselves some artificial self-validation by making others feel bad online. Sad little beings.

slim_boy_fat

Vino'sGhost wrote:

It will give me no pleasure when sky are busted. But I will enjoy rubbing some people's noses in it

Stay classy!

Vino'sGhost

And here we have those happy to attack. Crack on. I think sky aren't whiter than white. I think based on 30plus years of watching this sport that Wiggins is a cheat. He may not be. This isn't a trolls perspective it's one born of long experience.

Ive had personal abuse thrown at me by those who've invested in the wiggins / sky story, just like I did by those invested in the Armstrong / usps story. In the end the truth comes out. I sincerely hope Wiggins and sky are clean even though I don't believe they are.

But when it comes out why shouldn't I laugh at those who threw abuse?

frisbee

Vino'sGhost wrote:

And here we have those happy to attack. Crack on. I think sky aren't whiter than white. I think based on 30plus years of watching this sport that Wiggins is a cheat. He may not be. This isn't a trolls perspective it's one born of long experience.

Ive had personal abuse thrown at me by those who've invested in the wiggins / sky story, just like I did by those invested in the Armstrong / usps story. In the end the truth comes out. I sincerely hope Wiggins and sky are clean even though I don't believe they are.

But when it comes out why shouldn't I laugh at those who threw abuse?

Troll tactic #12 Falsely assert that other people are heavily invested in an individual or team.

Troll tactic #17 Blather on about how their only concern is truth and justice.

Troll tactic #27 Get butt hurt constantly at the slightest personal comment.

Pross

To be fair to Vino, at least he watches the sport and contributes to racing threads unlike the likes of Cuthbert, WCF and the others.

RichN95.

Delete

Vino'sGhost

frisbee wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

And here we have those happy to attack. Crack on. I think sky aren't whiter than white. I think based on 30plus years of watching this sport that Wiggins is a cheat. He may not be. This isn't a trolls perspective it's one born of long experience.

Ive had personal abuse thrown at me by those who've invested in the wiggins / sky story, just like I did by those invested in the Armstrong / usps story. In the end the truth comes out. I sincerely hope Wiggins and sky are clean even though I don't believe they are.

But when it comes out why shouldn't I laugh at those who threw abuse?

Troll tactic #12 Falsely assert that other people are heavily invested in an individual or team.

Troll tactic #17 Blather on about how their only concern is truth and justice.

Troll tactic #27 Get butt hurt constantly at the slightest personal comment.

lol I'm not hurt but you bandy around the word troll as a means of self validation. Looking for support from the others invested in the myth.

Feeling you have the factual and moral high ground. It makes me laugh, you're like trumps facts revision team. Blind to the truth and insulted by different opinions.

salsiccia1

Vino'sGhost wrote:

But when it comes out why shouldn't I laugh at those who threw abuse?

With all due respect, this is where I (and possibly others) have a problem - the cast iron certainty that serious wrong-doing has been going on and that there is definitely proven doping violations to come out.

All we've had is a 'doping' scandal without the doping: a possibly questionable TUE, a jiffy bag that may or may not have something ropy in it, and someone who might have been injecting vitamins that Sky declined to throw under the bus. But some people seem determined that this is LA/US Postal all over again. If that comes out, then so be it, but there really hasn't been signs anything like that is coming. And plenty enough people have been made unhappy by Sky that haven't had anything else to offer.

RichN95.

With this Edmondson case, it's worth looking back at why the no needles policy was introduced. It was to stop teams relying on injections for recovery etc, and to stop the normalisation of needle use. It was very much focused on needle use by team staff and with team knowledge - and something they agreed the could do without. I'm not sure it brought in with consideration to riders acting independently behind their team's back.

smithy21

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

But when it comes out why shouldn't I laugh at those who threw abuse?

With all due respect, this is where I (and possibly others) have a problem - the cast iron certainty that serious wrong-doing has been going on and that there is definitely proven doping violations to come out.

All we've had is a 'doping' scandal without the doping: a possibly questionable TUE, a jiffy bag that may or may not have something ropy in it, and someone who might have been injecting vitamins that Sky declined to throw under the bus. But some people seem determined that this is LA/US Postal all over again. If that comes out, then so be it, but there really hasn't been signs anything like that is coming. And plenty enough people have been made unhappy by Sky that haven't had anything else to offer.

But he is only expressing a point of view. There are equal and opposite reactions to this on the board as well from the nothing to see here brigade.

salsiccia1

smithy21 wrote:

Salsiccia1 wrote:

Vino'sGhost wrote:

But when it comes out why shouldn't I laugh at those who threw abuse?

With all due respect, this is where I (and possibly others) have a problem - the cast iron certainty that serious wrong-doing has been going on and that there is definitely proven doping violations to come out.

All we've had is a 'doping' scandal without the doping: a possibly questionable TUE, a jiffy bag that may or may not have something ropy in it, and someone who might have been injecting vitamins that Sky declined to throw under the bus. But some people seem determined that this is LA/US Postal all over again. If that comes out, then so be it, but there really hasn't been signs anything like that is coming. And plenty enough people have been made unhappy by Sky that haven't had anything else to offer.

But he is only expressing a point of view. There are equal and opposite reactions to this on the board as well from the nothing to see here brigade.

Point of view =/= assertion that there's no other possibility

Richmond Racer 2

Pross wrote:

To be fair to Vino, at least he watches the sport and contributes to racing threads unlike the likes of Cuthbert, WCF and the others.

A troll is still a troll

Pross

On the no needles policy, how do Team Novo Nordisk manage with insulin out of interest (and any diabetics on other teams)?

DeVlaeminck

Salsiccia1 wrote:

All we've had is a 'doping' scandal without the doping: a possibly questionable TUE, a jiffy bag that may or may not have something ropy in it, and someone who might have been injecting vitamins that Sky declined to throw under the bus. But some people seem determined that this is LA/US Postal all over again. If that comes out, then so be it, but there really hasn't been signs anything like that is coming. And plenty enough people have been made unhappy by Sky that haven't had anything else to offer.

I don't think that's true - maybe on other forums like this Clinic I don't frequent - but on here I've not seen anyone suggest Sky are doing anything even close to running a Discovery style doping programme. It's just that some are unwilling to accept even the possibility that Sky have bent the rules.

We had the same with the motors in bikes thing - anyone that even considered that a possibility was some kind of nutter - until it actually happened that a rider was caught of course.

Vino'sGhost

Richmond Racer 2 wrote:

Pross wrote:

To be fair to Vino, at least he watches the sport and contributes to racing threads unlike the likes of Cuthbert, WCF and the others.

A troll is still a troll

It's just different opinions that you struggle with, get over yourself.