CMS hearings into the alleged culture of doping and bullying at British Cycling
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Presumably if any rule had been broken in this case it was the no needles policy which is a UCI rule not a WADA rule I thought? Does anyone genuinely feel it's worth tipping a young person over the edge for something that would be legal (I assume) in any other sport?
As someone pointed out above, BC are getting slammed for allegations they are too tough on riders and now Sky decide to protect a vulnerable rider presumably knowing it could bite them and they get hammered for that. I think it shows that people aren't looking at things on principle just as another type of mud to sling.0 -
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DeVlaeminck wrote:gsk82 wrote:Or one of them isn't correctly remembering something that happened a couple of years ago. I'd guess that Edmonson isn't remembering correctly, given the state that has been suggested he was in.
Oh come on really - I think a lot of people with depression would not accept it makes them an unreliable witness - he has been categoric that he told them - almost certainly either he is lying or Sky are.
Well, given the timing of his tale, he has either received payment, or has been very patient with his payback for dismissal.
Whichever, he is not without incentive to embellish.
Given your previous criticism of the treatment JV, I'm surprise you now seem to be advocating that Sky should have taken the: "throw Josh under a bus" option, based on a case of he said, she said. Given that neither are saying a great deal."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
Stronger probably. I think I remember LeMond saying that he had vitamin and iron injections back in the 80s.awavey wrote:orraloon wrote:Ok, poss dumb Q here. Why inject vitamins vs just take them orally?
phew...I thought it was just me that was thinking that
I think what Edmondson took is the standard diet in many sports.
It reminds of some I once knew who was given all sorts of supplements and pills by his governing body (not British). He sold them all to gym bunnies and spent the money on coke.Twitter: @RichN950 -
It's not really the cycling press though. I think Lionel Birnie said it was non cyclng journos 'blowing in for a scandal'Joelsim wrote:
Too right, yet all the cycling press are trying to make something of it.
if you asked Matt Lawton or Dan Roan who they think will win Milan-San Remo, they'll say 'Inter or AC Milan?. Is this cup game? San Remo aren't in Serie A'Twitter: @RichN950 -
Pross wrote:
As someone pointed out above, BC are getting slammed for allegations they are too tough on riders and now Sky decide to protect a vulnerable rider presumably knowing it could bite them and they get hammered for that. I think it shows that people aren't looking at things on principle just as another type of mud to sling.
It's just because it's Sky and BC, any other team or fed wouldn't have an issue, look at the Belgians and Ozone therapy.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:DeVlaeminck wrote:gsk82 wrote:Or one of them isn't correctly remembering something that happened a couple of years ago. I'd guess that Edmonson isn't remembering correctly, given the state that has been suggested he was in.
Oh come on really - I think a lot of people with depression would not accept it makes them an unreliable witness - he has been categoric that he told them - almost certainly either he is lying or Sky are.
Well, given the timing of his tale, he has either received payment, or has been very patient with his payback for dismissal.
Whichever, he is not without incentive to embellish.
Given your previous criticism of the treatment JV, I'm surprise you now seem to be advocating that Sky should have taken the: "throw Josh under a bus" option, based on a case of he said, she said. Given that neither are saying a great deal.
So you think Josh Edmondson is lying ? Maybe he is but given Sky have been upbraided for being less than open recently and given the unlikely series of coincidences over the suspect package and the lost medical records I feel the balance of probabilities lies the other way.
My money is on Sky wanting to protect their reputation being the reason they kept schtum and them being the ones who are now throwing Edmondson under the bus in calling him a liar. I accept you think I'm being unfair on Sky - I think your view is being unfair on Josh Edmondson.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
My first thought is the media preying on a vulnerable young idiot.
This is a non story to me. The others I dont think are though!
Sky handled it well in my opinion.0 -
AK_jnr wrote:My first thought is the media preying on a vulnerable young idiot.
This is a non story to me. The others I dont think are though!
Sky handled it well in my opinion.
Agree. There is no doubt that Sky are up to no good but this is no smoking gun. I would hope that Peters, being a psychiatrist, and a noted one at that, would have taken this course of action. They could have tossed this kid to the wolves and saved some salary as well as made them selves out to be self-policing but keeping it n house was the best for the kid but has now come back to haunt them. Damned if they do, damned if they don't but I think they did the right thing.0 -
So young at 24 I wonder who advised him going to the media was a good idea?! How much would he of been given for that little interview?0
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Slim Boy Fat wrote:
What do you suggest they should have said?TailWindHome wrote:Slim Boy Fat wrote:
What's the difference between throwing him under the bus when they found out or when they let him go? Surely for his welfare giving a proper reason for letting him go is better then saying because he's a dirty drug cheat?TailWindHome wrote:I call bullshit on Sky's concern over a rider's mental health.
Rod Ellingworth, performance manager at Team Sky, explained that Edmondon’s disorganization, lack of professionalism and poor communication was behind his release from the squad.
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/lates ... AVXu1BR.99
Ellingworth's comments (which may have been accurate, but that's not the point) weren't exactly going to improve Edmondon's mental health where they?
From what I have read they also had a package of care in place for him after he left the team.
You've answered my question with a question.
Perhaps if his mental health was an issue it was a time for vague platitudes.
To be fair though, Ellingworth may not have known the full story.
I'd be interested in a link to what you've read with regard to the 'package of care'.“New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!0 -
I doubt he voluntarily went to the media. I expect they went to him and put a fair bit of pressure on him (And then the BBC make out they are doing him a favour)AK_jnr wrote:So young at 24 I wonder who advised him going to the media was a good idea?! How much would he of been given for that little interview?
And, elsewhere, as for the so called 'cover up', the sainted Garmin team was built on several cover ups of actual full scale doping. Vaughters used to basically brag he was covering them upTwitter: @RichN950 -
RichN95 wrote:
I doubt he voluntarily went to the media. I expect they went to him and put a fair bit of pressure on him (And then the BBC make out they are doing him a favour)AK_jnr wrote:So young at 24 I wonder who advised him going to the media was a good idea?! How much would he of been given for that little interview?
And, elsewhere, as for the so called 'cover up', the sainted Garmin team was built on several cover ups of actual full scale doping. Vaughters used to basically brag he was covering them up
What Rich says. Pretty sure it was the old 'we're going to run this story anyway, why not get in with your side of it first' stunt0 -
DeVlaeminck wrote:
So you think Josh Edmondson is lying ? Maybe he is but given Sky have been upbraided for being less than open recently and given the unlikely series of coincidences over the suspect package and the lost medical records I feel the balance of probabilities lies the other way.
My money is on Sky wanting to protect their reputation being the reason they kept schtum and them being the ones who are now throwing Edmondson under the bus in calling him a liar. I accept you think I'm being unfair on Sky - I think your view is being unfair on Josh Edmondson.
You didn't answer my question. Nevertheless, I'll answer yours.
I was highlighting that both parties potentially have reasons to tell their version of the tale, rather than one. I'm not accusing either and so being fair to both parties."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
RichN95 wrote:
Stronger probably. I think I remember LeMond saying that he had vitamin and iron injections back in the 80s.awavey wrote:orraloon wrote:Ok, poss dumb Q here. Why inject vitamins vs just take them orally?
phew...I thought it was just me that was thinking that
I think what Edmondson took is the standard diet in many sports.
It reminds of some I once knew who was given all sorts of supplements and pills by his governing body (not British). He sold them all to gym bunnies and spent the money on coke.
How is Paolini ?0 -
It'll be interesting to see what the UCI do, if anything, since this falls well inside the statute limits.
Hand up all those who think they won't be arsed.
Can't help but think that Sky missed the perfect PR trick with this one.
They had a witness, both physical and forensic evidence, chain of custody, a low level rider and best of all, no actual doping product. Not everyday you get to look a gift horse like that in the mouth.
A really zero tolerance trump card. Instead they passed the shoe."Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.0 -
To be fair you answered my question with a question in the third post of this conversationTailWindHome wrote:Slim Boy Fat wrote:
What do you suggest they should have said?TailWindHome wrote:Slim Boy Fat wrote:
What's the difference between throwing him under the bus when they found out or when they let him go? Surely for his welfare giving a proper reason for letting him go is better then saying because he's a dirty drug cheat?TailWindHome wrote:I call bullshit on Sky's concern over a rider's mental health.
Rod Ellingworth, performance manager at Team Sky, explained that Edmondon’s disorganization, lack of professionalism and poor communication was behind his release from the squad.
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/lates ... AVXu1BR.99
Ellingworth's comments (which may have been accurate, but that's not the point) weren't exactly going to improve Edmondon's mental health where they?
From what I have read they also had a package of care in place for him after he left the team.
You've answered my question with a question.
Perhaps if his mental health was an issue it was a time for vague platitudes.
To be fair though, Ellingworth may not have known the full story.
I'd be interested in a link to what you've read with regard to the 'package of care'.
They had to let him go as he'd broken team policy. And I think it was the best reason they could give for the riders mental health. Giving a legitimate reason other than 'he's a dirty doper' is surely the best way, from his point of view, for them to let him go. If a legitimate reason hadn't been given then that would only mean he faced more challenging questions. 'I just wasn't good enough' is surely a better thing to be able to tell people compared to 'I was a really naughty boy.'
I read a lot last night and I'm at work so on different PC. Would have to wait until tonight to trawl through my history to find it. Although RR seemed to confirm it and seem to know a little more than most in regard to this story.0 -
With all the other stuff the cynic in me says Sky have been at the very least gaming the system (but then, whoever thought they weren't was an idiot). With this, the cynic in me says the journos have bunged Edmonson a load of cash for his story. I see DeVlaeminck's point but in a contest of who I trust least between Sky and journalists they both fare pretty badly, and the timing of this is very convenient for the media.
The journos are working through the back catalogue of ex-Sky staff and riders and trying to get dodgy stories out of them. If this is the best they can do*, well, it's hardly Emma O'Reilly is it?
*pending any future stories where Sky masseuse admits covering up Wiggin's track marks etc etc0 -
Imagine how crestfallen the journalist was.
"I used needles to inject..."
*flashes of the journalist receiving his Pulitzer prize, the pay rise, moving to a bigger and better paper, becoming editor. This is it, this is the real deal*
"....vitamins"
F*ck.0 -
Blazing Saddles wrote:DeVlaeminck wrote:
So you think Josh Edmondson is lying ? Maybe he is but given Sky have been upbraided for being less than open recently and given the unlikely series of coincidences over the suspect package and the lost medical records I feel the balance of probabilities lies the other way.
My money is on Sky wanting to protect their reputation being the reason they kept schtum and them being the ones who are now throwing Edmondson under the bus in calling him a liar. I accept you think I'm being unfair on Sky - I think your view is being unfair on Josh Edmondson.
You didn't answer my question. Nevertheless, I'll answer yours.
I was highlighting that both parties potentially have reasons to tell their version of the tale, rather than one. I'm not accusing either and so being fair to both parties.
I didn't answer your question because, and I've just checked back, your post didn't contain a question.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
For all the excitement, violating the no-needles policy is not an anti-doping offence.Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.0
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Rick Chasey wrote:Imagine how crestfallen the journalist was.
"I used needles to inject..."
*flashes of the journalist receiving his Pulitzer prize, the pay rise, moving to a bigger and better paper, becoming editor. This is it, this is the real deal*
"....vitamins"
F*ck.
I was in a fuel station last night, they had a screen above the counter with weather, traffic reports and news headlines scrolling across it - customer information stuff.
The headline came up 'Ex Team Sky rider confesses to injecting vitamins' and I genuinely wondered what joe public was making of such a headline 2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner0 -
AK_jnr wrote:How much would he of been given for that little interview?
Given the value on the non disclosure agreements that ex Team Sky staff and riders 'allegedly' have to sign it must be a fair old whack!
Or maybe that isn't even a thing?2020/2021/2022 Metric Century Challenge Winner0 -
RichN95 wrote:And, elsewhere, as for the so called 'cover up', the sainted Garmin team was built on several cover ups of actual full scale doping. Vaughters used to basically brag he was covering them up
Two cover ups don't make a open and transparent organisation.0 -
TheBigBean wrote:RichN95 wrote:And, elsewhere, as for the so called 'cover up', the sainted Garmin team was built on several cover ups of actual full scale doping. Vaughters used to basically brag he was covering them up
Two cover ups don't make a open and transparent organisation.
Agreed. But thats Vaughters for you0 -
CarbonClem wrote:AK_jnr wrote:How much would he of been given for that little interview?
Given the value on the non disclosure agreements that ex Team Sky staff and riders 'allegedly' have to sign it must be a fair old whack!
Or maybe that isn't even a thing?
Think that's an urban myth tbh0 -
iainf72 wrote:For all the excitement, violating the no-needles policy is not an anti-doping offence.
Thanks, I'd asked a page or so back if my understanding that it was just a UCI rule was the case. So, basically in any other sport athletes can (and almost certainly are) doing this legitimately on a regular basis.0 -
Pross wrote:iainf72 wrote:For all the excitement, violating the no-needles policy is not an anti-doping offence.
Thanks, I'd asked a page or so back if my understanding that it was just a UCI rule was the case. So, basically in any other sport athletes can (and almost certainly are) doing this legitimately on a regular basis.
Pretty much yes. Other organisations have no needle policies, e.g. the Australian Insistute of Sports, but I think cycling is the only sport that actively enforces a no needles policy at all times.0 -
pressed quote not edited. Double.0
