CMS hearings into the alleged culture of doping and bullying at British Cycling

blazing_saddles

So, on the one hand Sky are to be damned by virtue the CMS investigation, on the other, they are to be damned by the BC investigation?
It's pretty clear that nobody is going to be changing their opinion, with this one.

DeVlaeminck

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Nobody thinks denying knowing that one of their riders broke the rules is noteworthy ?

They didn't deny, they didn't inform. And that is a huge call for a team to make. It raises the issue of rider well being and what the teams responsibilities are. Is there a point at which a riders well being becomes more important than a teams responsibility to report a potential anti doping violation. And also remembering that according to Sky no actual violation had occurred. A really difficult position to be in.

You or I have the wrong end of the stick - my understanding is Edmondson claims he told Sky that he had injected - Sky claim he told them he hadn't.

One of them is not telling the truth. In other words if you believe Edmondson Sky are even now not being honest about this.

Richmond Racer 2

Nice little case study in confirmation bias, I see

slim_boy_fat

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Nobody thinks denying knowing that one of their riders broke the rules is noteworthy ?

They didn't deny, they didn't inform. And that is a huge call for a team to make. It raises the issue of rider well being and what the teams responsibilities are. Is there a point at which a riders well being becomes more important than a teams responsibility to report a potential anti doping violation. And also remembering that according to Sky no actual violation had occurred. A really difficult position to be in.

You or I have the wrong end of the stick - my understanding is Edmondson claims he told Sky that he had injected - Sky claim he told them he hadn't.

One of them is not telling the truth. In other words if you believe Edmondson Sky are even now not being honest about this.

Whilst we will probably never know, I would be inclined to believe the very well respected doctor over the rider who decided to independently carry out a practice he knew to be against the rules.

Once again, why has he decided to reveal all of this at this very moment?

Matthewfalle

According to Radio 4 tonight, he told Sky he injected/was found out, they decided not to report due to his (their words, not mine) "mental health".

Ok, no good would have come of him being publicly named and shamed, but doesn't the fact that they decided to break the rules in not reporting him cast some shadows: i.e. Do they think that only some rules apply to them?

After all, no matter what any of us do for a living, sometimes we have to make hard decisions.

slim_boy_fat

Matthewfalle wrote:

According to Radio 4 tonight, he told Sky he injected/was found out, they decided not to report due to his (their words, not mine) "mental health".

According to Sky he told them he hadn't injected and although that meant he hadn't broken UCI rules he had broken Sky rules and they decided not to report him due to his 'mental health'. So if you believe Sky they broke no rules in not reporting and made a judgement call in their riders best interest.

Once again this comes down to two versions of events and who you believe. We will probably never know the definitive truth just like we'll never know what was in the Jiffy bag.

gsk82

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Nobody thinks denying knowing that one of their riders broke the rules is noteworthy ?

They didn't deny, they didn't inform. And that is a huge call for a team to make. It raises the issue of rider well being and what the teams responsibilities are. Is there a point at which a riders well being becomes more important than a teams responsibility to report a potential anti doping violation. And also remembering that according to Sky no actual violation had occurred. A really difficult position to be in.

You or I have the wrong end of the stick - my understanding is Edmondson claims he told Sky that he had injected - Sky claim he told them he hadn't.

One of them is not telling the truth. In other words if you believe Edmondson Sky are even now not being honest about this.

Or one of them isn't correctly remembering something that happened a couple of years ago. I'd guess that Edmonson isn't remembering correctly, given the state that has been suggested he was in.

blazing_saddles

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Nobody thinks denying knowing that one of their riders broke the rules is noteworthy ?

They didn't deny, they didn't inform. And that is a huge call for a team to make. It raises the issue of rider well being and what the teams responsibilities are. Is there a point at which a riders well being becomes more important than a teams responsibility to report a potential anti doping violation. And also remembering that according to Sky no actual violation had occurred. A really difficult position to be in.

You or I have the wrong end of the stick - my understanding is Edmondson claims he told Sky that he had injected - Sky claim he told them he hadn't.

One of them is not telling the truth. In other words if you believe Edmondson Sky are even now not being honest about this.

Whilst we will probably never know, I would be inclined to believe the very well respected doctor over the rider who decided to independently carry out a practice he knew to be against the rules.

Once again, why has he decided to reveal all of this at this very moment?

I would guess there's a fair bit of media funding available for Sky dirt, so it was probably the old brown envelope.

The one real "fact" to come to light this evening is that omerta isn't what it used to be. At least, at Sky.

slim_boy_fat

Double post

slim_boy_fat

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Nobody thinks denying knowing that one of their riders broke the rules is noteworthy ?

They didn't deny, they didn't inform. And that is a huge call for a team to make. It raises the issue of rider well being and what the teams responsibilities are. Is there a point at which a riders well being becomes more important than a teams responsibility to report a potential anti doping violation. And also remembering that according to Sky no actual violation had occurred. A really difficult position to be in.

You or I have the wrong end of the stick - my understanding is Edmondson claims he told Sky that he had injected - Sky claim he told them he hadn't.

One of them is not telling the truth. In other words if you believe Edmondson Sky are even now not being honest about this.

Whilst we will probably never know, I would be inclined to believe the very well respected doctor over the rider who decided to independently carry out a practice he knew to be against the rules.

Once again, why has he decided to reveal all of this at this very moment?

I would guess there's a fair bit of media funding available for Sky dirt, so it was probably the old brown envelope.

The one real "fact" to come to light this evening is that omerta isn't what it used to be. At least, at Sky.

Yep, definitely more questions to be asked but we should all be letting Bos know how we all respect him for doing the right thing.

tailwindhome

I call bullshit on Sky's concern over a rider's mental health.

Rod Ellingworth, performance manager at Team Sky, explained that Edmondon’s disorganization, lack of professionalism and poor communication was behind his release from the squad.
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/lates ... AVXu1BR.99

slim_boy_fat

TailWindHome wrote:

I call bullshit on Sky's concern over a rider's mental health.

Rod Ellingworth, performance manager at Team Sky, explained that Edmondon’s disorganization, lack of professionalism and poor communication was behind his release from the squad.
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/lates ... AVXu1BR.99

What's the difference between throwing him under the bus when they found out or when they let him go? Surely for his welfare giving a proper reason for letting him go is better then saying because he's a dirty drug cheat?

Richmond Racer 2

If anyone can be arsed to step outside their confirmation bias for a moment, ponder this: let me point you to Edmondson's race schedule for 2014. See much racing after the early season? Nope

And that wasn't cos he was disorganised (tho he undoubtedly was - that was a well known fact, and I heard first hand stories of his disorganisation)

I heard on the grapevine in 2015 about his problems (which continued during his stint with NFTO). In fact I mentioned what I had heard to Yellow Peril, formerly of this parish

salsiccia1

I bet this whistle-blowing was some sort of half-arsed false-flag operation devised three years ago to be brought out in the event of the dirty filthy Sky being found out, but because they're so implacably filthy that even this was done dirtily.

Did SDB slip Dan Roan's missus one or something? He's like a dog with two dicks on BC/Sky.

MrT

It's been interesting reading this..would have contributed more but just don't have time for forum wiff-waff. I work in a profession that involves a lot of pastoral care...indeed a duty of care. From what I have read and learnt from people who do know him and his methodology, Peters has always taken his duty of care to the athletes he deals with very seriously. Clearly this lad was under a lot of stress and from what he says it would appear to have been internally generated through his perceptions of what was happening externally. I think Sky made the right call and it could be highly likely he believes he did tell them he was injecting, though again, given his perceptions of the pressure he felt under and what he has said about his actions would seem unlikely. It depends on which of your own narratives you want to believe. Either way it would appear that Roan and the BBC have now decided on their own narrative...and Sky are going to hell in a hand cart.
My daughter said to me tonight how will you feel if it turns out Sky were dopers....I don't believe they are....truthfully I won't lose any sleep.....and she said neither would she..and she would still enjoy cycling.

salsiccia1

MrT wrote:

It's been interesting reading this..would have contributed more but just don't have time for forum wiff-waff. I work in a profession that involves a lot of pastoral care...indeed a duty of care. From what I have read and learnt from people who do know him and his methodology, Peters has always taken his duty of care to the athletes he deals with very seriously. Clearly this lad was under a lot of stress and from what he says it would appear to have been internally generated through his perceptions of what was happening externally. I think Sky made the right call and it could be highly likely he believes he did tell them he was injecting, though again, given his perceptions of the pressure he felt under and what he has said about his actions would seem unlikely. It depends on which of your own narratives you want to believe. Either way it would appear that Roan and the BBC have now decided on their own narrative...and Sky are going to hell in a hand cart.
My daughter said to me tonight how will you feel if it turns out Sky were dopers....I don't believe they are....truthfully I won't lose any sleep.....and she said neither would she..and she would still enjoy cycling.

All this. Great post.

orraloon

Ok, poss dumb Q here. Why inject vitamins vs just take them orally?

slim_boy_fat

orraloon wrote:

Ok, poss dumb Q here. Why inject vitamins vs just take them orally?

Peters said it was a question he asked Edmondson. Surely a couple of multivitamins at breakfast would have done the trick. Biggest question for me after all this is about rider welfare. How do teams ensure they are doing the right by their riders both physically and mentally?

rick_chasey

Hang on, riders taking injections of vitamins is headline news?

:roll:

Does anyone actually remember what a proper doping story is about?

tailwindhome

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

I call bullshit on Sky's concern over a rider's mental health.

Rod Ellingworth, performance manager at Team Sky, explained that Edmondon’s disorganization, lack of professionalism and poor communication was behind his release from the squad.
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/lates ... AVXu1BR.99

What's the difference between throwing him under the bus when they found out or when they let him go? Surely for his welfare giving a proper reason for letting him go is better then saying because he's a dirty drug cheat?

Ellingworth's comments (which may have been accurate, but that's not the point) weren't exactly going to improve Edmondon's mental health where they?

slim_boy_fat

Rick Chasey wrote:

Hang on, riders taking injections of vitamins is headline news?

:roll:

Does anyone actually remember what a proper doping story is about?

Man City getting done for whereabouts issues?

Cycling innit, got to be dirty, if we keep digging we are bound to find something.

slim_boy_fat

TailWindHome wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

I call bullshit on Sky's concern over a rider's mental health.

Rod Ellingworth, performance manager at Team Sky, explained that Edmondon’s disorganization, lack of professionalism and poor communication was behind his release from the squad.
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/lates ... AVXu1BR.99

What's the difference between throwing him under the bus when they found out or when they let him go? Surely for his welfare giving a proper reason for letting him go is better then saying because he's a dirty drug cheat?

Ellingworth's comments (which may have been accurate, but that's not the point) weren't exactly going to improve Edmondon's mental health where they?

What do you suggest they should have said?

From what I have read they also had a package of care in place for him after he left the team.

Richmond Racer 2

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

I call bullshit on Sky's concern over a rider's mental health.

Rod Ellingworth, performance manager at Team Sky, explained that Edmondon’s disorganization, lack of professionalism and poor communication was behind his release from the squad.
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/lates ... AVXu1BR.99

What's the difference between throwing him under the bus when they found out or when they let him go? Surely for his welfare giving a proper reason for letting him go is better then saying because he's a dirty drug cheat?

Ellingworth's comments (which may have been accurate, but that's not the point) weren't exactly going to improve Edmondon's mental health where they?

What do you suggest they should have said?

From what I have read they also had a package of care in place for him after he left the team.

Accurate.

Richmond Racer 2

Rick Chasey wrote:

Hang on, riders taking injections of vitamins is headline news?

:roll:

Does anyone actually remember what a proper doping story is about?

Tell me about it :roll:

joelsim

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

Slim Boy Fat wrote:

TailWindHome wrote:

I call bullshit on Sky's concern over a rider's mental health.

Rod Ellingworth, performance manager at Team Sky, explained that Edmondon’s disorganization, lack of professionalism and poor communication was behind his release from the squad.
Read more at http://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/lates ... AVXu1BR.99

What's the difference between throwing him under the bus when they found out or when they let him go? Surely for his welfare giving a proper reason for letting him go is better then saying because he's a dirty drug cheat?

Ellingworth's comments (which may have been accurate, but that's not the point) weren't exactly going to improve Edmondon's mental health where they?

What do you suggest they should have said?

From what I have read they also had a package of care in place for him after he left the team.

Too right, yet all the cycling press are trying to make something of it.

I'm pretty open about what I think is wrong or right, yet I despair really at stuff like this.

I hope Josh E manages to get through everything.

salsiccia1

It's absolutely desperate stuff.

smithy21

Isn't the issue that it's not Sky's call to make?

If they report it to the correct authority and make it clear the mental health issues concerned then that's the correct course of action isn't it.

But tbh I couldn't give a toss either way.

DeVlaeminck

gsk82 wrote:

Or one of them isn't correctly remembering something that happened a couple of years ago. I'd guess that Edmonson isn't remembering correctly, given the state that has been suggested he was in.

Oh come on really - I think a lot of people with depression would not accept it makes them an unreliable witness - he has been categoric that he told them - almost certainly either he is lying or Sky are.

awavey

orraloon wrote:

Ok, poss dumb Q here. Why inject vitamins vs just take them orally?

phew...I thought it was just me that was thinking that

Lanterne_Rogue

awavey wrote:

orraloon wrote:

Ok, poss dumb Q here. Why inject vitamins vs just take them orally?

phew...I thought it was just me that was thinking that

Tradition.